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Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: beagledave
Date: November 08, 2014 07:49PM
[sacramento.cbslocal.com]

A Tracy high-school student is in hot water after omitting the words “under God” from his reading of the Pledge of Allegiance.
Derek Giardina, 17, says he’s been given detention and docked points after omitting the reference to God, and the school district is standing by its decision.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: November 08, 2014 09:09PM
well Derek has a killer college essay topic (assuming he's not going to Liberty U)

“A public forum where you’re going to represent the school is not a place where you can voice a controversial issue and force that on other people,” he said. School official

and that guy wins the daily irony award
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Ted King
Date: November 08, 2014 09:19PM
Never mind. Goof on my part.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2014 09:39PM by Ted King.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Ted King
Date: November 08, 2014 09:21PM
'nother goof - never mind



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2014 09:40PM by Ted King.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: billb
Date: November 08, 2014 09:46PM
<<Strube says if students didn’t want to do the assignment, there was an alternative offered.>>

So ya volunteer to do it as assigned and f#$% up intentionally and don't expect repercussion ?
What a horrible life lesson.
Future Obama voter for sure.



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: November 08, 2014 10:14PM
Quote
billb
Future Obama voter for sure.

Would that be voting for Obama in 2016 billb? Or maybe 2017? Or...?? RollingEyesSmiley5



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2014 10:16PM by DeusxMac.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: eustacetilley
Date: November 09, 2014 01:31AM
The Section of the California Education Code, 52720, requiring daily "Patriotic Exercises" such as, for example, Reciting the Pledge, is well established, and dates as far back as... 2005.
There were no Legal requirements for Reciting the Pledge, any of the three versions, or Salute, any of two, when I was in the California School System, and there still aren't.

"52720. In every public elementary school each day during the school
year at the beginning of the first regularly scheduled class or
activity period at which the majority of the pupils of the school
normally begin the schoolday, there shall be conducted appropriate
patriotic exercises. The giving of the Pledge of Allegiance to the
Flag of the United States of America shall satisfy the requirements
of this section.
In every public secondary school there shall be conducted daily
appropriate patriotic exercises. The giving of the Pledge of
Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America shall satisfy
such requirement. Such patriotic exercises for secondary schools
shall be conducted in accordance with the regulations which shall be
adopted by the governing board of the district maintaining the
secondary school.
"

In other words, the kid violated a local School District interpretation requiring him to recite a specific version of the Pledge 12 times a year. He didn't break any Law, and if he chooses to make a Federal Case out of this, he will win.
(Also, the District Spokesman, Mr. Strube, alludes to alternatives that the Student was offered, instead of Reciting that particular Pledge, but I've been unable to dig those alternatives up.)

¬Eustace
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: (vikm)
Date: November 09, 2014 05:20AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
billb
Future Obama voter for sure.

Would that be voting for Obama in 2016 billb? Or maybe 2017? Or...?? RollingEyesSmiley5

That one was too easy. You should feel ashamed lol
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Pops
Date: November 09, 2014 08:07AM
Quote
Everyone in the class is required to do it 12 times a year.
That's the part I have a problem with. Why would a public school in 2014 think that a policy like that can stand up to challenge? How do they deal with Jehovah's Witnesses?

As a teacher and atheist, i simply stayed mute when those two words were read. I never let my students know and would never had commented to them about it. They didn't know I skipped those words. Nobody knew except me. And now you.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: November 09, 2014 09:42AM
Quote
Pops
Quote
Everyone in the class is required to do it 12 times a year.
That's the part I have a problem with. Why would a public school in 2014 think that a policy like that can stand up to challenge? How do they deal with Jehovah's Witnesses?

As a teacher and atheist, i simply stayed mute when those two words were read. I never let my students know and would never had commented to them about it. They didn't know I skipped those words. Nobody knew except me. And now you.

Kids aren't required to say the pledge, this kid lead voluntarily and could have done an alternate assignment. He didn't go mute during the "under God" part he just skipped past it, so that definitely drew attention to what he was doing. He has also in the past chosen to read the original pre-1954 version which our course does not include the words "under God" but maybe he was told to stop that. So I think his is a very interesting case and I'll be curious to see if he pursues it, and how it turns out.

California has some sort of requirement in it's education code that schools do "patriotic exercises" and they use reciting the pledge to cover this. As far as I know it's still normal routine in public school to begin each day with recitation of the pledge but in recent years I haven't seen schools around here taking it too seriously.
A number of kids aren't citizens to begin with so it would be inappropriate for them to say the pledge.

Personally I think it serves no purpose and certainly not the purpose it's fans seem to think it does. I'd like to see the practice end and be replaced with meaningful discussions about the rights and responsibilities of American citizenship.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Pops
Date: November 09, 2014 10:23AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Kids aren't required to say the pledge, this kid lead voluntarily and could have done an alternate assignment.
Thank you. I was unclear about alternate activities, though if one DOES lead the Pledge, there's no way to avoid either reciting or not reciting the "under God" words.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: eustacetilley
Date: November 09, 2014 10:36AM
Quote
Pops
Quote
Lemon Drop
Kids aren't required to say the pledge, this kid lead voluntarily and could have done an alternate assignment.
Thank you. I was unclear about alternate activities, though if one DOES lead the Pledge, there's no way to avoid either reciting or not reciting the "under God" words.

The California Education Code that I quoted above makes no distinction as to which version is preferred.
That is up to the local School District.

¬Eustace
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: davester
Date: November 09, 2014 10:41AM
Quote
eustacetilley
The Section of the California Education Code, 52720, requiring daily "Patriotic Exercises" such as, for example, Reciting the Pledge, is well established, and dates as far back as... 2005.
There were no Legal requirements for Reciting the Pledge, any of the three versions, or Salute, any of two, when I was in the California School System, and there still aren't.

"52720. In every public elementary school each day during the school
year at the beginning of the first regularly scheduled class or
activity period at which the majority of the pupils of the school
normally begin the schoolday, there shall be conducted appropriate
patriotic exercises. The giving of the Pledge of Allegiance to the
Flag of the United States of America shall satisfy the requirements
of this section.
In every public secondary school there shall be conducted daily
appropriate patriotic exercises. The giving of the Pledge of
Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America shall satisfy
such requirement. Such patriotic exercises for secondary schools
shall be conducted in accordance with the regulations which shall be
adopted by the governing board of the district maintaining the
secondary school.
"

In other words, the kid violated a local School District interpretation requiring him to recite a specific version of the Pledge 12 times a year. He didn't break any Law, and if he chooses to make a Federal Case out of this, he will win.
(Also, the District Spokesman, Mr. Strube, alludes to alternatives that the Student was offered, instead of Reciting that particular Pledge, but I've been unable to dig those alternatives up.)

¬Eustace

Compelling children by law to recite a loyalty oath seems like something that a totalitarian state does. I think that such a requirement is onerous and un-American. Are we really living in the "Land of the Free?"



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: November 09, 2014 10:47AM
Quote
eustacetilley
Quote
Pops
Quote
Lemon Drop
Kids aren't required to say the pledge, this kid lead voluntarily and could have done an alternate assignment.
Thank you. I was unclear about alternate activities, though if one DOES lead the Pledge, there's no way to avoid either reciting or not reciting the "under God" words.

The California Education Code that I quoted above makes no distinction as to which version is preferred.
That is up to the local School District.

¬Eustace

I didn't see your comment before responding to Pops, thanks for sharing those details.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: eustacetilley
Date: November 09, 2014 11:03AM
Quote
davester
Quote
eustacetilley
The Section of the California Education Code, 52720, requiring daily "Patriotic Exercises" such as, for example, Reciting the Pledge, is well established, and dates as far back as... 2005.
There were no Legal requirements for Reciting the Pledge, any of the three versions, or Salute, any of two, when I was in the California School System, and there still aren't.

"52720. In every public elementary school each day during the school
year at the beginning of the first regularly scheduled class or
activity period at which the majority of the pupils of the school
normally begin the schoolday, there shall be conducted appropriate
patriotic exercises. The giving of the Pledge of Allegiance to the
Flag of the United States of America shall satisfy the requirements
of this section.
In every public secondary school there shall be conducted daily
appropriate patriotic exercises. The giving of the Pledge of
Allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America shall satisfy
such requirement. Such patriotic exercises for secondary schools
shall be conducted in accordance with the regulations which shall be
adopted by the governing board of the district maintaining the
secondary school.
"

In other words, the kid violated a local School District interpretation requiring him to recite a specific version of the Pledge 12 times a year. He didn't break any Law, and if he chooses to make a Federal Case out of this, he will win.
(Also, the District Spokesman, Mr. Strube, alludes to alternatives that the Student was offered, instead of Reciting that particular Pledge, but I've been unable to dig those alternatives up.)

¬Eustace

Compelling children by law to recite a loyalty oath seems like something that a totalitarian state does. I think that such a requirement is onerous and un-American. Are we really living in the "Land of the Free?"

Oh, it gets stranger and stranger...
I went to work for the University Of California in 1978. UC HR was, and still is... bewildered.
Among other things, they somehow neglected to have me sign the California Loyalty Oath.
Yes, those idiocies were around then, and they are still around now. On paper, and in person.
(Another thing that I somehow neglected to sign: Assignment of Patent Rights to UC...)

In 2008, I retired.
Then some paperwork started to be cleared up and...
I had to sign the Loyalty Oath in order to Retire from a position that I had never been properly hired for, three decades back.

I had way too much fun with this.


¬Eustace
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Marc Anthony
Date: November 09, 2014 11:27AM
Quote
davester
Compelling children by law to recite a loyalty oath seems like something that a totalitarian state does. I think that such a requirement is onerous and un-American.

As progressive as CA tends to be, it's surprising that such a mandate is still on the books. Forced "Patriotic Exercises" is indoctrination. If the school doesn't like his interpretation, they could restrict him from further readings; docking his grade is wrong.



Le poète doit vivre beaucoup, vivre dans tous les sens. - Verlaine
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: November 09, 2014 12:18PM
Quote
Marc Anthony
Quote
davester
Compelling children by law to recite a loyalty oath seems like something that a totalitarian state does. I think that such a requirement is onerous and un-American.

As progressive as CA tends to be, it's surprising that such a mandate is still on the books. Forced "Patriotic Exercises" is indoctrination. If the school doesn't like his interpretation, they could restrict him from further readings; docking his grade is wrong.

Have you ever looked hard at the political makeup of the counties in CA away from S.F. and LALA?



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Acer
Date: November 09, 2014 12:36PM
He was reciting the original version. You know, the one written closer to the time of the Founding Fathers.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: max
Date: November 10, 2014 05:16AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
He didn't go mute during the "under God" part he just skipped past it, ...
What is the difference?....
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: decay
Date: November 10, 2014 09:07AM
maybe we should make our children wear brown shirts?



---
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: November 10, 2014 05:06PM
Like Pops earlier.. I just stay quiet for the single second it takes to say "under God", no student has ever asked or commented on it. I just do not believe it needs to be there. The phrase was put in by Congress in 1954 under pressure by the Knights of Columbus at the height of the Red Scare.

As for the alternative assignment - those should be equal in difficulty and time to complete as the original assignment. Since it takes about 15 seconds to recite, I would be very interested to know what alternative was found that takes 15 seconds and can be done 12 times. Often the alternative is a research paper - say 1 page in length. Even as simple as that sounds, it is not equivalent.

Honestly, I would give the kid an "A" for 1) knowing there was an earlier version, 2) understanding the history, and 3) bringing forth a discussion on civil liberties. This is a very teachable moment.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the teacher, administration and district are incapable of seeing that.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: sekker
Date: November 10, 2014 09:32PM
This was a new argument a few years ago.

But in 2014, this is ridiculous.

The student should be allowed to say a certified version of this civil pledge, the district should allow the decision, while standing by (as necessary) their preference.

But I think religion has no business in public schools.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Spock
Date: November 10, 2014 10:22PM
Given the current political climate "under Satan" would be more apt.






Comedy Central: Best news channel that isn't a news channel.

Fox News: Best comedy channel that isn't a comedy channel.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: max
Date: November 11, 2014 06:48AM
Quote
Spock
Given the current political climate "under Satan" would be more apt.

an incompetent Satan....
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 11, 2014 10:02AM
I never understood why we were pledging allegiance to the flag in the first place. It seems like it should start with a pledge "to the republic for which it stands" and not the piece of cloth. Removing "under God" doesn't really improve such a poorly written and misguided loyalty oath. It's been modified so often since originally written that nobody is saying it the way the author (a socialist btw) intended it to be said. In short, I say get rid of the thing.



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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: deckeda
Date: November 11, 2014 11:38AM
I have no philosophical problem with a loyalty oath directed towards a flag. Flags are symbols, idols. Having a visual to look at while you say it sure beats staring off into space or whatever.

"Under God" is quaint at best, and exclusionary and gov't-sanctioned religiosity at worst. Where are the conservative voices here, ready to moan about government overreach? Where's Ted Cruz when we need him? "Requiring a governmental oath is the Obamacare of education."
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 11, 2014 01:02PM
Maybe if it was "I pledge allegiance to my country as represented by the flag" or some such. But it literally says "I pledge allegiance to the flag". And you know what? I don't.



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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: decay
Date: November 11, 2014 01:33PM
One Nation, undivided?

another quaint notion.

[www.branchfloridians.org]

Quote
Jello
With liberty and justice for all who can afford it



---




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2014 01:33PM by decay.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: November 11, 2014 01:42PM
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: November 11, 2014 01:45PM
Quote
Acer
He was reciting the original version. You know, the one written closer to the time of the Founding Fathers.

The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an expression of fealty to the Flag of the United States and the republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the pledge in 1942.
-wikipedia
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: November 11, 2014 02:29PM
Quote
billb
Future Obama voter for sure.

Since he is not a follower of the herd, you are probably right.

I guess Obama will be a write-in candidate?
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: deckeda
Date: November 12, 2014 06:45AM
Quote
$tevie
Maybe if it was "I pledge allegiance to my country as represented by the flag" or some such. But it literally says "I pledge allegiance to the flag". And you know what? I don't.

I totally agree with your out of context quote! Pledging to a piece of cloth would be insanely random without the flag representing something else.

"and to the Republic, for which it stands." See? Bellamy took care of you there. smiling smiley
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: beagledave
Date: November 12, 2014 11:16AM
It does seem weird to have such a passionate devotion to the gubmint, at one time including a Nazi-ish salute, written by a socialist.

The irony is not not lost by at least some on the right.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 12, 2014 01:09PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
$tevie
Maybe if it was "I pledge allegiance to my country as represented by the flag" or some such. But it literally says "I pledge allegiance to the flag". And you know what? I don't.

I totally agree with your out of context quote! Pledging to a piece of cloth would be insanely random without the flag representing something else.

"and to the Republic, for which it stands." See? Bellamy took care of you there. smiling smiley

"AND to the Republic". As in, to the flag AND the Republic. Where I come from that means I'm pledging to both, the country AND the fabric.



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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 12, 2014 01:15PM
And let's not forget the "Bellamy salute".



Gee, I wonder why Congress felt they had to step in and mandate "hand over heart" as the correct salute? emoticon-animal-022
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: deckeda
Date: November 12, 2014 05:53PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
deckeda
Quote
$tevie
Maybe if it was "I pledge allegiance to my country as represented by the flag" or some such. But it literally says "I pledge allegiance to the flag". And you know what? I don't.

I totally agree with your out of context quote! Pledging to a piece of cloth would be insanely random without the flag representing something else.

"and to the Republic, for which it stands." See? Bellamy took care of you there. smiling smiley

"AND to the Republic". As in, to the flag AND the Republic. Where I come from that means I'm pledging to both, the country AND the fabric.

Yes, and you're so close. Now if you'll only acknowledge "for which it stands" as meaning the flag as a symbol, you'll have it!

But at the risk of it not happening, what goes on when someone prays to an artist's conception of Jesus? Do they believe the painting is truly Jesus Hisself, or a useful symbol to use for the broader abstract of something they can't see directly with thine own eyeballs?

I'll grant you it can be weird. Flag=Republic and yet, not. But literalism eating you alive here.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 12, 2014 11:21PM
You're wrong. Wrong. Wrong. AND is the operative word here. AND to the Republic for which it stands.

As written, it has one pledging allegiance to the flag. AND to the Republic for which it stands.

Yes, I am being literal. As in, reading the words which are in the sentence and not the words which I imagine are in the sentence.



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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 12, 2014 11:24PM
Edna Dean Proctor wrote an ode for the event and "There was also an oration suitable for declamation." Bellamy held "Of course, the nub of the program was to be the raising of the flag, with a salute to the flag recited by the pupils in unison." He found "There was not a satisfactory enough form for this salute. The Balch salute which ran 'I give my heart and my hand to my country, one country, one language, one flag.' seemed too juvenile and lacking in dignity." After working on the idea with Upham, Bellamy concluded "It was my thought that a vow of loyalty or allegiance to the flag should be the dominant idea.

And blah blah blah etc: [en.wikipedia.org]

'I give my heart and my hand to my country, one country, one language, one flag' would be a much better pledge, in my opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah, "one language" so not PC, but at least it is clear that I'm not swearing a loyalty oath to a flag.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/12/2014 11:27PM by $tevie.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: November 13, 2014 01:21PM
You are pledging allegiance to the flag.

You are pledging allegiance to the republic, too.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: November 13, 2014 04:13PM
Quote
Lux Interior
You are pledging allegiance to the flag.

You are pledging allegiance to the republic, too.

I think $tevie's point all along has been that the latter makes sense but the former is at best odd and at worst discomfitingly jingoistic (as contrasted with patriotic).



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/13/2014 04:14PM by rjmacs.
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: $tevie
Date: November 13, 2014 04:30PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Lux Interior
You are pledging allegiance to the flag.

You are pledging allegiance to the republic, too.

I think $tevie's point all along has been that the latter makes sense but the former is at best odd and at worst discomfitingly jingoistic (as contrasted with patriotic).

Thank you! patriot smiley
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Re: Don't say "under God"? Get your public school grade docked.
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: November 14, 2014 12:31PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Lux Interior
You are pledging allegiance to the flag.

You are pledging allegiance to the republic, too.

I think $tevie's point all along has been that the latter makes sense but the former is at best odd and at worst discomfitingly jingoistic (as contrasted with patriotic).

I agree.
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