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What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 01, 2017 08:22PM
... independent of whether or not there was collusion with the Trump campaign/administration (and aside from any potential obstruction of justice)? I hope he is discovering what the heck Putin was and is up to. We really need to stop it. I think there is a chance that Mueller may be more focused on the meddling Putin has done outside of his efforts to compromise Trump (if he has tried to do that) than he is the Trump collusion issue itself. It could be that Mueller actually sees exposing and neutralizing Putin's efforts at corrupting American politics as the most important thing he is doing. If so, I wonder when we'll find out what he knows about this. Sooner would be nice but I'm okay with not knowing till he is fully ready to expose it.

I don't think doing that is directly within the mandate he was given but I have a hunch that Mueller instinctively wants to protect America from Putin. Maybe not, though. If not, we'll have rely on Republicans in Congress to find out what Putin is up to. Uhg.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: September 01, 2017 08:51PM
I just hope the indictments in NEW YORK STATE take place in time for the Republican party to REALLY HURT in the 2018 elections. Like lose Congress hurt. Thus making the successful impeachment of Trump AND Pence inevitable. I WANT to see the Trump family (Less the young boy and his mother) do the perp walk.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: September 01, 2017 09:07PM
When he sees Trump's income tax forms, things may change a lot.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 02, 2017 11:29AM
I should have done this before I posted the OP - I just looked at Rosenstein's document establishing Mueller as a Special Counsel and this is what I think are the relevant parts:

Quote

(b)The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confirmed by then-FBI Director James Corney in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:

(i) any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and

(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation...

By that text it seems that the larger issue of Russian interference in the election aside from any possible collusion with the Trump campaign are not the purview of Mueller's investigation. But I have found some sources that seem to indicate that that does fall under Mueller's mandate; e.g., [www.latimes.com]. Is the (ii) section above sufficient grounds for him to look into any kind of Russian interference in the election?

Does anyone here know of definitive information on this one way or the other? I hope Mueller does have that broader mandate because I am concerned that the Republicans in Congress may slow walk their investigations or worse.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: September 02, 2017 02:04PM
I'm pulling for the NY AG. State financial crimes with no pardons allowed.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: September 02, 2017 02:13PM
(ii) means Mueller can investigate anything he wants.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 02, 2017 02:24PM
Quote
Dennis S
I'm pulling for the NY AG. State financial crimes with no pardons allowed.

Me too, but if Mueller isn't investigating Russian meddling in the election outside of possible Trump campaign collusion, then that means that we are going to have to rely on committees controlled by Republicans in Congress to find out what the Russians were up to (and will probably be up to again next year - maybe in spades). That prospect concerns me quite a bit since they could very well have fairly strong partisan interest in not pursuing such an investigation vigorously. It's not all only about Trump campaign possible collusion - the Russians were up to a lot of other stuff that is about undermining our democracy. We need to find out the details of what they did and then get serious - sooner rather than later - about addressing it.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 02, 2017 02:26PM
Quote
Speedy
(ii) means Mueller can investigate anything he wants.

Do you have a source for that conclusion? I'd like to believe it, but from some of the things I've heard/read, it may not be that straightforward.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: September 02, 2017 02:31PM
Quote
Ted King
Quote
Speedy
(ii) means Mueller can investigate anything he wants.

Do you have a source for that conclusion? I'd like to believe it, but from some of the things I've heard/read, it may not be that straightforward.

Trump argued about a month ago that Mueller could not investigate his financial affairs. That argument went quickly by the wayside.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 02, 2017 05:46PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
Ted King
Quote
Speedy
(ii) means Mueller can investigate anything he wants.

Do you have a source for that conclusion? I'd like to believe it, but from some of the things I've heard/read, it may not be that straightforward.

Trump argued about a month ago that Mueller could not investigate his financial affairs. That argument went quickly by the wayside.

With respect to Mueller investigating Trump's finances - [www.latimes.com]

Quote

The important question is whether Mueller’s conduct is accepted practice, lawful and good for the country.

So framed, the answer is not controversial. Mueller is squarely within bounds.

There is a critical difference between developing evidence of new crimes while pursuing an authorized investigation, and straying outside the borders of legal authority. It’s a familiar principle from other areas of the law. If, for example, the police legally search someone’s house for drugs and find illegal guns, there is no impediment to a gun prosecution.

So if Mueller stumbles on other potential crimes while looking into whether or not the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians or Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice, then that's legally fine. But that doesn't imply that he can just decide to go off investigating in any direction he wants. It's not evident to me on the face of it that Rosenstein's Special Counsel document gives Mueller leeway to go investigating ALL aspects of possible Russian interference in the election. I actually hope that he can, but I just don't see it in the words in the document spelling out Mueller's mandate. I'm not saying the legal justification isn't there, I am just saying I don't see it. I would like for someone to explain to me how the language of the document justifies that broader investigation if that is indeed the case.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Pam
Date: September 02, 2017 08:03PM
Quote
Ted King
Quote
Speedy
Quote
Ted King
Quote
Speedy
(ii) means Mueller can investigate anything he wants.

Do you have a source for that conclusion? I'd like to believe it, but from some of the things I've heard/read, it may not be that straightforward.

Trump argued about a month ago that Mueller could not investigate his financial affairs. That argument went quickly by the wayside.

With respect to Mueller investigating Trump's finances - [www.latimes.com]

Quote

The important question is whether Mueller’s conduct is accepted practice, lawful and good for the country.

So framed, the answer is not controversial. Mueller is squarely within bounds.

There is a critical difference between developing evidence of new crimes while pursuing an authorized investigation, and straying outside the borders of legal authority. It’s a familiar principle from other areas of the law. If, for example, the police legally search someone’s house for drugs and find illegal guns, there is no impediment to a gun prosecution.

So if Mueller stumbles on other potential crimes while looking into whether or not the Trump campaign colluded with the Russians or Trump is guilty of obstruction of justice, then that's legally fine. But that doesn't imply that he can just decide to go off investigating in any direction he wants. It's not evident to me on the face of it that Rosenstein's Special Counsel document gives Mueller leeway to go investigating ALL aspects of possible Russian interference in the election. I actually hope that he can, but I just don't see it in the words in the document spelling out Mueller's mandate. I'm not saying the legal justification isn't there, I am just saying I don't see it. I would like for someone to explain to me how the language of the document justifies that broader investigation if that is indeed the case.

I don't think Mueller is investigating the hacking that occurred, and what it meant. Intelligence agencies already know it was the Russians. But to take it a step further and find out what they actually accomplished with the hacks.... supposedly a congressional committee or two is doing that. And of course Trump's election committee. The states can do their own forensics, but they need federal help. But, if in the course of following the money they are led to the hacking... that would be in his purview. If there really are links between a Russian bank, a server in Trump tower, Spectrum Health, Cambridge Analyitica, and Trump's Project Alamo then there should be a money trail.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 02, 2017 08:19PM
Quote
Pam

I don't think Mueller is investigating the hacking that occurred, and what it meant. Intelligence agencies already know it was the Russians. But to take it a step further and find out what they actually accomplished with the hacks.... supposedly a congressional committee or two is doing that. And of course Trump's election committee. The states can do their own forensics, but they need federal help. But, if in the course of following the money they are led to the hacking... that would be in his purview. If there really are links between a Russian bank, a server in Trump tower, Spectrum Health, Cambridge Analyitica, and Trump's Project Alamo then there should be a money trail.

The money trail is the one avenue I was thinking might be one that could take Mueller into the larger picture of the Russian effort to mess with our election. I get that a lot of the specific actions Putin was doing are known to intelligence agencies so in that respect there isn't a need for Mueller to delve into much of that. Reflecting on it now, I think what I am looking for is someone to present a narrative that paints a holistic picture of what Putin was up to and how he operated and also makes a compelling case about his likely motives and goals. Mueller seems like he is just the guy that could do that very effectively. I think such a narrative may be essential to galvanizing sufficient response to make sure Putin can't mess with our democracy to such a large degree ever again.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: September 02, 2017 09:36PM
Just so you all know, 30% of the voters don't care if Mueller finds anything. That means that 3 out of 12 jurors are not going to convict him even if the House and Senate manage to give Trump the boot.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: sekker
Date: September 02, 2017 10:40PM
Quote
Speedy
Just so you all know, 30% of the voters don't care if Mueller finds anything. That means that 3 out of 12 jurors are not going to convict him even if the House and Senate manage to give Trump the boot.

A good prosecutor would exclude those from the jury due to preconceived views.
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: $tevie
Date: September 03, 2017 09:39AM
Quote
sekker
Quote
Speedy
Just so you all know, 30% of the voters don't care if Mueller finds anything. That means that 3 out of 12 jurors are not going to convict him even if the House and Senate manage to give Trump the boot.

A good prosecutor would exclude those from the jury due to preconceived views.
Exactly so.


I was listening to some radio show a while back and it was said that Mueller can pursue any avenue for which he finds evidence, under the same guidelines which allow police to arrest you for drugs if they stop you for speeding. I can't remember the term they used.



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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: September 03, 2017 10:01AM
Quote
sekker
Quote
Speedy
Just so you all know, 30% of the voters don't care if Mueller finds anything. That means that 3 out of 12 jurors are not going to convict him even if the House and Senate manage to give Trump the boot.

A good prosecutor would exclude those from the jury due to preconceived views.

Plus, if I remember correctly, Mueller would probably be filing charges in a Washington, DC federal court. The percent of Trump supporters amongst the general population of Washington, DC is probably quite a bit lower than the nationwide average of about 30%. In DC they would probably have more trouble picking people from the jury pool that aren't biased against Trump. grinning smiley
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Re: What is Mueller finding out about Russian interference in the election...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: September 03, 2017 01:37PM
Quote
Ted King
Quote
sekker
Quote
Speedy
Just so you all know, 30% of the voters don't care if Mueller finds anything. That means that 3 out of 12 jurors are not going to convict him even if the House and Senate manage to give Trump the boot.

A good prosecutor would exclude those from the jury due to preconceived views.

Plus, if I remember correctly, Mueller would probably be filing charges in a Washington, DC federal court. The percent of Trump supporters amongst the general population of Washington, DC is probably quite a bit lower than the nationwide average of about 30%. In DC they would probably have more trouble picking people from the jury pool that aren't biased against Trump. grinning smiley

Except Mueller would have good reason to fear pardons for those convicted in federal court. Likely any trial would take place in a NY state court. But no matter where it takes place, an unbiased jury would be impossible to find.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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