advertisement
Forums

 

AAPL stock: Click Here

You are currently viewing the 'Friendly' Political Ranting forum
Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: December 06, 2017 12:00PM
Franken won't survive this. He had a chance, maybe, before the bridges were alight and friends stopped returning his calls, to do something different about this. Sorry, pdq. You can't unpoison a well.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 12:06PM by rjmacs.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 12:30PM
There's a reason the Republicans control the House, the Senate and the Presidency. It's "this" kind of weakness.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 12:48PM
Quote
vision63
There's a reason the Republicans control the House, the Senate and the Presidency. It's "this" kind of weakness.

I don't know what that means.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: December 06, 2017 12:48PM
....think that he is forked.....



____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: December 06, 2017 12:49PM
Dammit. A well like Democratic senator has some allegations against him. Mild allegations, from what I see.

And the Republicans are supporting an acknowledged pedophile to get a Senate seat.

Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 12:52PM
I'm curious about the ethics committee, why does it exist?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 12:57PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
There's a reason the Republicans control the House, the Senate and the Presidency. It's "this" kind of weakness.

I don't know what that means.

I don't know what "you" mean by responding what does what I wrote mean.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 01:01PM
Quote
cbelt3
Dammit. A well like Democratic senator has some allegations against him. Mild allegations, from what I see.

And the Republicans are supporting an acknowledged pedophile to get a Senate seat.

There's no functional difference even within this forum, where Franken was lambasted and Conyers was not, despite Conyers' allegations against him as being more numerous and serious.

Or maybe it's that Conyers actively decided sooner to get out (despite not actually leaving sooner ...) that matters. Appearances, in other words, optics. Yay for @#$%& and faux outrage, on both sides.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 01:07PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
There's a reason the Republicans control the House, the Senate and the Presidency. It's "this" kind of weakness.

I don't know what that means.

I don't know what "you" mean by responding what does what I wrote mean.

Just asking for you to explain it better, if you don't mind. I do not know what the weakness is.

Is it failure to toe the party line and support Franken? And if so, should they do whatever it takes to win and retain seats? Is Romney a bad person for saying it's not worth it to support Moore? Is this all just sport?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 06, 2017 01:08PM
Well, as I said from the beginning, what happens in legitimate cases of sexual abuse is that more women come forward to establish a pattern. It bothers me that this is yet another anonymous allegation- (why anonymous? It’s not like the women making the “he was too friendly with me when I posed with a picture with him” have had any repercussions, AFAIK).

But Politico is a source I trust, it sounds like this story checks out, and unlike the other (non-anonymous) cases, it clearly shows intent and not something in which an event could have been misunderstood.

It pales against the allegations against Trump and Moore, but I can’t defend this one.

(Edit: link added)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 01:44PM by pdq.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 01:16PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
There's a reason the Republicans control the House, the Senate and the Presidency. It's "this" kind of weakness.

I don't know what that means.

I don't know what "you" mean by responding what does what I wrote mean.

Just asking for you to explain it better, if you don't mind. I do not know what the weakness is.

Is it failure to toe the party line and support Franken? And if so, should they do whatever it takes to win and retain seats? Is Romney a bad person for saying it's not worth it to support Moore? Is this all just sport?

A failure to establish ONE standard and a fair process for enforcing that standard before calling on people to step down. This is still the United States and due process for all. Don't support otherwise.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: December 06, 2017 01:21PM
vision...
The reality here is that sexual abuse has been SO endemic and protected for so long, that actual laws and due process has no way of catching up to the new dynamic. And of course the laws and due process are developed by the culture that is part and parcel of the cycle of abuse.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 01:25PM
Quote
cbelt3
vision...
The reality here is that sexual abuse has been SO endemic and protected for so long, that actual laws and due process has no way of catching up to the new dynamic. And of course the laws and due process are developed by the culture that is part and parcel of the cycle of abuse.

Well, that was then. This is now. We can move forward for the future with a more enlightened understanding and ensure that we protect women. This is still America and we still have due process.

There are also levels to this. To not acknowledge this is not responsible. In the past, this is precisely how we ended up with things like mass incarceration. Putting everyone and what they did in the same bucket.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 01:28PM by vision63.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 01:39PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
There's a reason the Republicans control the House, the Senate and the Presidency. It's "this" kind of weakness.

I don't know what that means.

I don't know what "you" mean by responding what does what I wrote mean.

Just asking for you to explain it better, if you don't mind. I do not know what the weakness is.

Is it failure to toe the party line and support Franken? And if so, should they do whatever it takes to win and retain seats? Is Romney a bad person for saying it's not worth it to support Moore? Is this all just sport?

A failure to establish ONE standard and a fair process for enforcing that standard before calling on people to step down. This is still the United States and due process for all. Don't support otherwise.

You won't see any ISO or court standards for desires and feelings. Due process doesn't satisfy regarding sexual harassment. "I didn't like that" and "I felt threatened" do not correlate with "wrong" unless and until the victim adequately persuades.

That's a far cry from (for example), stealing. "Do you feel as if the watch was stolen?" was asked by no one ever.

Ethics --and yeah, crowd judgment -- exist where hard and fast rules don't work or don't yet work.

I'm trying to describe what I understand how things work, and see you describing what you want. That doesn't mean we disagree, but are likely talking past each other about different things.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 06, 2017 01:47PM
I think that this is turning into a farce. Why the hell are we picking on one of the few people standing between us and the nuclear winter of the Trump era? Are we so anxious to prove we are "liberal" and "non-partisan" that we are going to force Franken out while Trump gets to stay in his job? This is @#$%&, people. Look at who is being singled out by these accusations. Public radio people, liberals, artists and musicians, and one GOP candidate who won't lose the support of his party because they understand this is a war and they are willing to do whatever it takes to destroy us.

I see no evidence whatsoever that getting rid of Franken is going to fix the problems of sexual abuse and male dominance. However, it is going to fix it so that the WH maniac gets to keep grabbing @#$%& as long as he pleases whilst ruining the country.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 01:50PM by $tevie.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 01:51PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
There's a reason the Republicans control the House, the Senate and the Presidency. It's "this" kind of weakness.

I don't know what that means.

I don't know what "you" mean by responding what does what I wrote mean.

Just asking for you to explain it better, if you don't mind. I do not know what the weakness is.

Is it failure to toe the party line and support Franken? And if so, should they do whatever it takes to win and retain seats? Is Romney a bad person for saying it's not worth it to support Moore? Is this all just sport?

A failure to establish ONE standard and a fair process for enforcing that standard before calling on people to step down. This is still the United States and due process for all. Don't support otherwise.

You won't see any ISO or court standards for desires and feelings. Due process doesn't satisfy regarding sexual harassment. "I didn't like that" and "I felt threatened" do not correlate with "wrong" unless and until the victim adequately persuades.

That's a far cry from (for example), stealing. "Do you feel as if the watch was stolen?" was asked by no one ever.

Ethics --and yeah, crowd judgment -- exist where hard and fast rules don't work or don't yet work.

I'm trying to describe what I understand how things work, and see you describing what you want. That doesn't mean we disagree, but are likely talking past each other about different things.

It's about we have a madman in the office of the presidency and two houses of congress that is currently raiding our treasuries and are actively destroying out country and our democracy.

Whatever happened to these women "happened" and should be addressed by the means that I mentioned. That doesn't mean that the sole opposition to Trump and the Republicans should go about shooting at their own feet in the middle of what is truly a national (international) crisis in order to feel like they're "doing the right thing" in the middle of a hurricane.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 01:54PM
Quote
$tevie
I think that this is turning into a farce. Why the hell are we picking on one of the few people standing between us and the nuclear winter of the Trump era? Are we so anxious to prove we are "liberal" and "non-partisan" that we are going to force Franken out while Trump gets to stay in his job? This is @#$%&, people. Look at who is being singled out by these accusations. Public radio people, liberals, artists and musicians, and one GOP candidate who won't lose the support of his party because they understand this is a war and they are willing to do whatever it takes to destroy us.

I see no evidence whatsoever that getting rid of Franken is going to fix the problems of sexual abuse and male dominance. However, it is going to fix it so that the WH maniac gets to keep grabbing @#$%& as long as he pleases whilst ruining the country.

We have a collection of Senators that are basically triangulating themselves to death trying to appeal to whatever loud constituency pops it head up. I like and support each of them but it's annoying as hell. Every morning we have to wake up to Trump and the Republicans slamming their wrecking balls into another part of our democracy.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: numbered
Date: December 06, 2017 01:56PM
Part of the explanation.......

Quote

More generally speaking, Republicans are also less likely to say alleged sexual harassment is a dealbreaker when voting for a candidate. The poll asked that if a candidate faced multiple sexual harassment allegations, whether people would “still consider voting for them if you agreed with them on the issues.” A plurality of Republican, 43 percent, say they would, while 41 percent say they definitely would not.

By contrast, Democrats say they definitely would not vote for such a candidate, by a margin of 81 percent to 12 percent, and independents say they definitely wouldn't 2-to-1.

Data from Quinnipiac, from Post article.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Rolando
Date: December 06, 2017 01:57PM
Vision is right on target! By shooting themselves like this, the Democrats unknowingly or not are accomplices to the destruction wrought by Trump and co. You wanna know why the right wins? Because they would rather win than be right. The Center (there is NO left in the US) would rather lose honorably, f@ck everyone else going down with them!



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
-- Edmund Burke
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt (1918)
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 06, 2017 01:58PM
Franken asked for an ethics committee investigation. So where is it? Let's get everyone under oath and then I'll feel like this isn't just a vast right wing conspiracy. And before you laugh at me, think really hard about what is happening in this country. Wake up and smell the Russians.



Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 02:06PM
Quote
$tevie
Franken asked for an ethics committee investigation. So where is it? Let's get everyone under oath and then I'll feel like this isn't just a vast right wing conspiracy. And before you laugh at me, think really hard about what is happening in this country. Wake up and smell the Russians.

This is definitely what this is. Get politicians to focus more on their individual careers than the greater good. Divide then conquer.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Pam
Date: December 06, 2017 02:11PM
Quote
$tevie
Franken asked for an ethics committee investigation. So where is it? Let's get everyone under oath and then I'll feel like this isn't just a vast right wing conspiracy. And before you laugh at me, think really hard about what is happening in this country. Wake up and smell the Russians.

Where Franken is concerned, I wholly agree. This stinks to high heaven.

Conyers, goodbye and good riddance.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: samintx
Date: December 06, 2017 02:13PM
When is it 45's turn?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 06, 2017 02:15PM
WaPo column today:

Quote

Fellow conservatives, it’s time to call on Clarence Thomas to resign

Yeaaaahhh, that's not gonna happen.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 02:15PM
Quote
samintx
When is it 45's turn?

Hopefully November 6, 2018 at the maximum.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 06, 2017 02:19PM
It really hurts when your heroes do it, but they do. But hypocrisy and failure to hold accountable is an even worse crime.

I'm disappointed in people who think it's OK to trade a woman's dignity for imagined political victories. I trust the smart women (and men) in Democratic leadership in the Senate.

I appreciate the fact that, if he is going to resign, Franken chooses not to spend tax money on a hypocritical, pointless investigation. He knows better than anyone else what he's done, or not done. That seems like integrity. But he hasn't resigned, right? Maybe he's about to plead innocent. I don't know.

The Republic will survive. And the Democratic party. But it hurts, the feeling of being so let down.

(Minnesota - next time please don't elect a known misogynist. Don't care how smart he is. It always goes wrong. Thanks.)
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 02:20PM
Quote
Rolando
Vision is right on target! By shooting themselves like this, the Democrats unknowingly or not are accomplices to the destruction wrought by Trump and co. You wanna know why the right wins? Because they would rather win than be right. The Center (there is NO left in the US) would rather lose honorably, f@ck everyone else going down with them!

I'm not so pessimistic to think that I'd rather win than be right, which is your central diagnosis and prescription here. I do however bore at hearing more about "how the game is played" and that Democrats should just get on that bus or else.

Or else what? Voters will forever flock to Republicans? Really? Is the cynicism that pervasive?

I have zero interest in being "better" than Republicans nor do I require 100% sanctimonious behavior. Hell, last week I was claimed to be a total Franken apologist here ...

A very good point was also made last week or so that Franken is not the only "good Democrat" that can hold that seat. Let the process, whatever it is, run. If it doesn't "just work," you don't toss it, you adjust tack and keep moving!

Anyone wanna play? Then help us all out and play the long game. It's both boring and disheartening to live in a world where "politics" is only about who has power today, as if it'll never shift back



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 02:21PM by deckeda.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 06, 2017 02:39PM
Another full column about "I didn't like how he took a picture with me":

Quote

D.C. was decked out and packed in for the inauguration of a young and popular new president. The town was buzzing with optimism, and one of the many events on our list was a swanky Media Matters party with Democratic notables everywhere. Then I saw Al Franken. I only bug celebrities for pictures when it’ll make my foster mom happy. She loves Franken, so I asked to get a picture with him. We posed for the shot. He immediately put his hand on my waist, grabbing a handful of flesh. I froze. Then he squeezed. At least twice.



I’d been married for two years at the time; I don’t let my husband touch me like that in public because I believe it diminishes me as a professional woman.

Srsly? "He put his hand on my waist"?

Listen, like I said above, I can't/won't defend Franken against the most recent allegation of an unwanted kiss attempt. But apparently, between this and Keillor, it seems there is no safe place for a man to wrap a friendly arm around a woman when she asks for a picture with him. Around her back? No, you might touch the side of her breast. Her backside? Absolutely not. Her waist? She doesn't even let her husband do that.

From now on, probably best to just politely decline.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 02:42PM by pdq.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 06, 2017 02:50PM
This is a jujutsu move, using an attacker's energy against him, rather than directly opposing it. They take a cause that liberals support and turn it on Franken and everyone sits there like bobblehead dolls saying, Yes yes let's get rid of Franken because he's a bad man. And they know liberals will do that. Once Franken is gone, they'll nail someone else. Because it's very easy to get the left to eat their own and the Republicans know that. And they know which Senator crossed Sessions and he's paying for it now.



Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 06, 2017 02:50PM
What's with the selective reading? The rest of us can see what's there.

"grabbing a handful of flesh..."

Not OK.

Probably won't get you arrested if it's not an intimate body part and you don't injure the person.

pdq I'm certain you know better than this. The playing dumb/didn't do it on purpose approach works when you're 8. Not as a grown man.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 06, 2017 02:52PM
Quote
$tevie
This is a jujutsu move, using an attacker's energy against him, rather than directly opposing it. They take a cause that liberals support and turn it on Franken and everyone sits there like bobblehead dolls saying, Yes yes let's get rid of Franken because he's a bad man. And they know liberals will do that. Once Franken is gone, they'll nail someone else. Because it's very easy to get the left to eat their own and the Republicans know that. And they know which Senator crossed Sessions and he's paying for it now.

The Democratic women in the US Senate are not bobbleheads.

I have no idea what Franken is going to choose to do (it's up to him, he's not being thrown out) but it's his call, and he knows what he's done, and how many more women are going to come forward. Why so little trust of Franken?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 06, 2017 03:02PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
What's with the selective reading? The rest of us can see what's there.

"grabbing a handful of flesh..."

Not OK.

Probably won't get you arrested if it's not an intimate body part and you don't injure the person.

pdq I'm certain you know better than this. The playing dumb/didn't do it on purpose approach works when you're 8. Not as a grown man.

Not playing dumb, and I quoted the whole paragraph, unmodified (except my my bold). I don't know about you, but when I put my arm around someone in a setting like this, my hand goes on their waist (or around their back, or over their shoulder). And if we're in a celebratory mood, I might give them a squeeze (or yes, even two) with that hand. Men or women. And I'm an introvert.

I never knew this was "groping". I am now disabused of this notion, since I would rather not have someone write an national article about me saying that I "groped" them 8 years ago when if I accepted their request to take a picture with them.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 03:08PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
Rolando
Vision is right on target! By shooting themselves like this, the Democrats unknowingly or not are accomplices to the destruction wrought by Trump and co. You wanna know why the right wins? Because they would rather win than be right. The Center (there is NO left in the US) would rather lose honorably, f@ck everyone else going down with them!

I'm not so pessimistic to think that I'd rather win than be right, which is your central diagnosis and prescription here.

Because the Republican's wrecking ball ain't wrecking you.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 03:25PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
$tevie
This is a jujutsu move, using an attacker's energy against him, rather than directly opposing it. They take a cause that liberals support and turn it on Franken and everyone sits there like bobblehead dolls saying, Yes yes let's get rid of Franken because he's a bad man. And they know liberals will do that. Once Franken is gone, they'll nail someone else. Because it's very easy to get the left to eat their own and the Republicans know that. And they know which Senator crossed Sessions and he's paying for it now.

The Democratic women in the US Senate are not bobbleheads.

I have no idea what Franken is going to choose to do (it's up to him, he's not being thrown out) but it's his call, and he knows what he's done, and how many more women are going to come forward. Why so little trust of Franken?

Those Senators are being careerists trying to make sure they're on the "right side" of the issue. That they're (we're) better than the Republicans. We ARE already better than them. They're never going to think we are so what are we doing? Shooting at our feet. Being divided and conquered because they read us like a book. They know we got a bunch of righteous members that can be "controlled" by them.

Thinking that just because Minnesota is temporarily blue that there is safety for the long term. That's dumb. We should be backing him up and showing them and the public that we don't waver or break. Weakness is why we lose.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 06, 2017 03:26PM
Quote
pdq
Quote
Lemon Drop
What's with the selective reading? The rest of us can see what's there.

"grabbing a handful of flesh..."

Not OK.

Probably won't get you arrested if it's not an intimate body part and you don't injure the person.

pdq I'm certain you know better than this. The playing dumb/didn't do it on purpose approach works when you're 8. Not as a grown man.

Not playing dumb, and I quoted the whole paragraph, unmodified (except my my bold). I don't know about you, but when I put my arm around someone in a setting like this, my hand goes on their waist (or around their back, or over their shoulder). And if we're in a celebratory mood, I might give them a squeeze (or yes, even two) with that hand. Men or women. And I'm an introvert.

I never knew this was "groping". I am now disabused of this notion, since I would rather not have someone write an national article about me saying that I "groped" them 8 years ago when if I accepted their request to take a picture with them.

No, you did not print the entire paragraph. In fact you left out the part that describes what this behavior meant to this woman (and she doesn't say what body parts were touched)

I believe it diminishes me as a professional woman. Al Franken’s familiarity was inappropriate and unwanted. It was also quick; he knew exactly what he was doing.


It shrunk me. It’s like I was no longer a person, only ornamental. It said, “You don’t matter—and I do.” He wanted to cop a feel and he demonstrated he didn’t need my permission.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 06, 2017 03:42PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
No, you did not print the entire paragraph.

Uh - yeah, I did.

Here's the whole paragraph, direct copy and paste from the piece:

Quote

D.C. was decked out and packed in for the inauguration of a young and popular new president. The town was buzzing with optimism, and one of the many events on our list was a swanky Media Matters party with Democratic notables everywhere. Then I saw Al Franken. I only bug celebrities for pictures when it’ll make my foster mom happy. She loves Franken, so I asked to get a picture with him. We posed for the shot. He immediately put his hand on my waist, grabbing a handful of flesh. I froze. Then he squeezed. At least twice.

That's exactly what I posted above. Geez!

Quote

It shrunk me. It’s like I was no longer a person, only ornamental. It said, “You don’t matter—and I do.” He wanted to cop a feel and he demonstrated he didn’t need my permission.[/i]

I'm so sorry that someone (who asked for a photo with him!) had to endure him putting his hand on her waist (!) (And doing so without her permission! Hey, my Mom loves you - can I get a picture with you? --I don't know - can I put my arm around you like you have your arm around me?) And giving her a squeeze, maybe even just possibly friendly, like many humans do in celebratory settings.

This maximization of the tiniest perceived faux pas is nearly as destructive in the long run as the minimization of frankly illegal and obviously unethical behavior by others that the other side is currently engaged in full-bore.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: numbered
Date: December 06, 2017 03:47PM
Lithwick channeling Vision.......
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Janit
Date: December 06, 2017 04:55PM
Quote
pdq
Quote
Lemon Drop
No, you did not print the entire paragraph.

Uh - yeah, I did.

Here's the whole paragraph, direct copy and paste from the piece:

Quote

D.C. was decked out and packed in for the inauguration of a young and popular new president. The town was buzzing with optimism, and one of the many events on our list was a swanky Media Matters party with Democratic notables everywhere. Then I saw Al Franken. I only bug celebrities for pictures when it’ll make my foster mom happy. She loves Franken, so I asked to get a picture with him. We posed for the shot. He immediately put his hand on my waist, grabbing a handful of flesh. I froze. Then he squeezed. At least twice.

That's exactly what I posted above. Geez!

Quote

It shrunk me. It’s like I was no longer a person, only ornamental. It said, “You don’t matter—and I do.” He wanted to cop a feel and he demonstrated he didn’t need my permission.[/i]

I'm so sorry that someone (who asked for a photo with him!) had to endure him putting his hand on her waist (!) (And doing so without her permission! Hey, my Mom loves you - can I get a picture with you? --I don't know - can I put my arm around you like you have your arm around me?) And giving her a squeeze, maybe even just possibly friendly, like many humans do in celebratory settings.

This maximization of the tiniest perceived faux pas is nearly as destructive in the long run as the minimization of frankly illegal and obviously unethical behavior by others that the other side is currently engaged in full-bore.

We are reaching the point where ANY physical contact between men and women is being sexualized in the extreme.

It is not in women's interest to do this. It is becoming another version of "everything about interaction between men and women is impermissible because it must be about sex." Therefore we must banish women out of the public sphere, cover them with veils, put them in their place etc. Yes, boundaries are important, but this case is beyond ridiculous. Did this woman think to ask Franken's permission to put her arm around his shoulder? How could she assume that HER physical gesture was not inappropriate? Everyone knows, you say? Well what DOES everyone know?

I KNOW this is a mean thing to say, I KNOW it sounds like blaming the victim, but I sense a bit of projection in her story. She found Franken attractive, and THAT is what made her uncomfortable.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 06, 2017 05:03PM
My lord that is an epic woman-hating rant Janit. Nobody does that better than women, really. This is little different than "she was asking for it."

It's not your experience. She felt violated, it's her story and experience.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 05:07PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
I'm not so pessimistic to think that I'd rather win than be right, which is [Rolando's] central diagnosis and prescription here.

Because the Republican's wrecking ball ain't wrecking you.

Is that because I like what they do, or because I don't live in the U.S.?

.... both answers would be incorrect, but thanks just the same for the assumption/claim?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 05:19PM
I'm reminded of school teachers and administrators, who for many years have been instructed to not so much as ever touch a school child for any reason. There's truth to all of this, both the veracity of what happened and of some potential over-reaction.

So Franken is likely gone, but it won't be for any of the reasons his accusers claim. When your own kind says it's time to go, then just go and don't spin your wheels wondering if you've been unjustly tried. Same for his supporters, OK?

Stop worrying if "taking the high road" makes you look like a patsy! Do what's right, not what you can get away with, because they do it too. Stop wishing people on "your side" acted similarly!

At some point, there has to be some faith placed somewhere. If it's not with the accusers, then keep faith among your own tribe. I do not and will not believe the other Democratic senators are mere pawns in the Great Big Republican Conspiracy. That's a defeatist attitude if ever there was one.

The fact that senate Republicans refuse to refute Moore says something about them, not the Democrats. Conflate the two at your peril.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 06, 2017 05:21PM
Janit, thanks for your post. It seems reasonable to me.

One of the posts I saw over at the Atlantic story essentially said, why do you think you have the right to define what a grope is? If this woman felt like having Franken's hand on her waist was a grope, then it was a grope.

I don't think this is right. I hope it's not the way things are.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 06, 2017 05:24PM
FYI - Franken just tweeted that he hasn't made his mind up yet. He's "talking with his family."
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 06, 2017 05:32PM
Not sure if it's reading comprehension or wanting text to say something it doesn't, but this woman's complaint against Franken is not "a hand on her waist." She said "he wanted to cop a feel." That comment was not included for some reason in pdq's post about the story, which reads to me like a misguided attempt to make the behavior sound innocent. Exactly the same failed approach to excusing the behavior as Franken and other men (and some women too).

If you don't understand what a woman means when she says a guy tried to "cop a feel" maybe ask a woman you know? It is not simply putting a hand on the waist for a photo.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 06, 2017 05:32PM
dedecka, the Slate piece linked to by "numbered" above says it better than I could:

Quote

Who knows why the GOP has lost its last ethical moorings? But this is a perfectly transactional moment in governance, and what we get in exchange for being good and moral right now is nothing. I’m not saying we should hit pause on #MeToo, or direct any less fury at sexual predators in their every manifestation. But we should understand that while we know that our good faith and reasonableness are virtues, we currently live in a world where it’s also a handicap.

Unilateral disarmament is tantamount to arming the other side. That may be a trade worth making in some cases. But it’s worth at least acknowledging that this is the current calculus.

I think Franken probably should step down now, if for no other reason that everyone has turned against him.

But we should at least recognize that while we've been consumed over where hands were placed during requested photos (taken in public), we've lost net neutrality, we've had a budget-busting giveaway to the richest among us passed, and the other side is about to welcome a child predator to the Senate. Just sayin.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Janit
Date: December 06, 2017 05:33PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
My lord that is an epic woman-hating rant Janit. Nobody does that better than women, really. This is little different than "she was asking for it."

It's not your experience. She felt violated, it's her story and experience.

That's as may be, but an unwillingness to engage in a discussion of fine distinctions is the stuff of fundamentalism.

Are we spoiling for a duel at dawn? We can call each other names and then hurl our feminist creds at each other.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 06, 2017 05:42PM
Quote
Janit
Did this woman think to ask Franken's permission to put her arm around his shoulder?
That's what I want to know. She can initiate intimate contact because, why? Because she's a woman?

And I don't want to hear that pinching flesh is worse than putting an arm around a shoulder. @#$%& teenage girls is worse than pinching flesh but y'all don't see any difference there so don't bother.



Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 06, 2017 05:44PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Not sure if it's reading comprehension or wanting text to say something it doesn't, but this woman's complaint against Franken is not "a hand on her waist." She said "he wanted to cop a feel."

Of her waist? Or some ill-defined "handful of flesh"... at her waist?

sneaky smiley

As I said, I think this particular issue (of Franken) has been decided. I am dismayed that a man with a long history of working for women's (and other's) rights can be smeared with such relish and summarily discarded for "groping" someone's waist, with the proof being a picture of her smiling with her arm around him.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 06, 2017 05:47PM
Quote
Janit
Quote
Lemon Drop
My lord that is an epic woman-hating rant Janit. Nobody does that better than women, really. This is little different than "she was asking for it."

It's not your experience. She felt violated, it's her story and experience.

That's as may be, but an unwillingness to engage in a discussion of fine distinctions is the stuff of fundamentalism.

Are we spoiling for a duel at dawn? We can call each other names and then hurl our feminist creds at each other.


No need to insult my intelligence (further) by suggesting I don't know the difference between rape and copping a feel and placing your hand on someone's back with consent. You seek to minimize the woman's experience without being the person who had the experience. I just want to honor her story as she told it. Franken can deny, as he has. He denies that he tried to forcibly kiss a number of women, who have strikingly similar stories, most corroborated by others at or near the time of the events. Perhaps they are all lying, and he's about to say he refuses to resign and will defend himself against the allegations. He has every right to.

To say we're in a new era where women are too dumb to know the difference between rape and copping a feel and innocent pats on the back (as you suggest above) is insulting to women. Men have always hoped we're too dumb to know the difference, you're just joining their chorus.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 05:59PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
I'm not so pessimistic to think that I'd rather win than be right, which is [Rolando's] central diagnosis and prescription here.

Because the Republican's wrecking ball ain't wrecking you.

Is that because I like what they do, or because I don't live in the U.S.?

.... both answers would be incorrect, but thanks just the same for the assumption/claim?

Oh it's wrecking you, but you don't perceive it. If you did, you wouldn't be saying this. It's not an assumption. It's real. It's weak and it aids and abets the enemy.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login

Online Users

Guests: 132
Record Number of Users: 52 on November 20, 2014
Record Number of Guests: 847 on February 04, 2015