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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: vision63
Date: December 06, 2017 06:06PM
BREAKING: House approves GOP bill making it easier for gun owners to carry concealed weapons across state lines.

Hey, let's try to make a hard fought Democratic Party seat quit.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Ammo
Date: December 06, 2017 06:14PM
I realize this is an issue that really hits home for some.

As that may be, I think we need to acknowledge the difference in degree of offensive behaviors and react accordingly. And to expect people to have made no mistakes at all in the past is not only unrealistic but counterproductive to the greater good.

As for me, I’m content to judge Al Franken by Republican standards and hope he doesn’t resign. Dems who want to oust Franken in order to make Repubs look bad in comparison are making a losing bet.



Always remember that your present situation is not your final destination.

"The opposite for courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow." Jim Hightower



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 06:32PM by Ammo.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: December 06, 2017 06:32PM
Quote
Janit
That's as may be, but an unwillingness to engage in a discussion of fine distinctions is the stuff of fundamentalism.

zealotry - noun
fanatical and uncompromising pursuit of religious, political, or other ideals; fanaticism.

zealot - noun
a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: December 06, 2017 06:37PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
To say we're in a new era where women are too dumb to know the difference between rape and copping a feel and innocent pats on the back (as you suggest above) is insulting to women. Men have always hoped we're too dumb to know the difference, you're just joining their chorus.

LD’s canon IS that ALL men are irredeemable swine, and ALL women are above reproach.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 06:39PM by DeusxMac.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Pam
Date: December 06, 2017 06:38PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Not sure if it's reading comprehension or wanting text to say something it doesn't, but this woman's complaint against Franken is not "a hand on her waist." She said "he wanted to cop a feel." That comment was not included for some reason in pdq's post about the story, which reads to me like a misguided attempt to make the behavior sound innocent. Exactly the same failed approach to excusing the behavior as Franken and other men (and some women too).

If you don't understand what a woman means when she says a guy tried to "cop a feel" maybe ask a woman you know? It is not simply putting a hand on the waist for a photo.

If you can show me where she explains something other than his hand on her waist, squeezing or not, then we can talk. A woman calling a hand on the waist copping a feel doesn't herself know what copping a feel means. Or she intentionally used inflammatory language. There is such a thing as false accusations. Women can lie and exaggerate too.

As someone who does not like to be touched by most people, I can distinguish between harmless, normal (for others) behavior and someone taking advantage of the situation to essentially assault. As can most people.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: December 06, 2017 06:41PM
Quote
Pam
Quote
Lemon Drop
Not sure if it's reading comprehension or wanting text to say something it doesn't, but this woman's complaint against Franken is not "a hand on her waist." She said "he wanted to cop a feel." That comment was not included for some reason in pdq's post about the story, which reads to me like a misguided attempt to make the behavior sound innocent. Exactly the same failed approach to excusing the behavior as Franken and other men (and some women too).

If you don't understand what a woman means when she says a guy tried to "cop a feel" maybe ask a woman you know? It is not simply putting a hand on the waist for a photo.

If you can show me where she explains something other than his hand on her waist, squeezing or not, then we can talk. A woman calling a hand on the waist copping a feel doesn't herself know what copping a feel means. Or she intentionally used inflammatory language. There is such a thing as false accusations. Women can lie and exaggerate too.

As someone who does not like to be touched by most people, I can distinguish between harmless, normal (for others) behavior and someone taking advantage of the situation to essentially assault. As can most people.

copping a feel
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 07:16PM
Quote
pdq
dedecka, the Slate piece linked to by "numbered" above says it better than I could:

Quote

Who knows why the GOP has lost its last ethical moorings? But this is a perfectly transactional moment in governance, and what we get in exchange for being good and moral right now is nothing. I’m not saying we should hit pause on #MeToo, or direct any less fury at sexual predators in their every manifestation. But we should understand that while we know that our good faith and reasonableness are virtues, we currently live in a world where it’s also a handicap.

Unilateral disarmament is tantamount to arming the other side. That may be a trade worth making in some cases. But it’s worth at least acknowledging that this is the current calculus.

I think Franken probably should step down now, if for no other reason that everyone has turned against him.

But we should at least recognize that while we've been consumed over where hands were placed during requested photos (taken in public), we've lost net neutrality, we've had a budget-busting giveaway to the richest among us passed, and the other side is about to welcome a child predator to the Senate. Just sayin.

Democrats are saying for him to leave, because Republicans have zero credibility. Please don't trade Democrat "respect" for credibility. Long game.

Net neutrality will be decided by the Republicans in control. The absence of #MeToo would not, could not, negate that simple fact. The public feedback option isn't even legit this time, with impersonations, fake entities posted and any refusal to hold public meetings about it. What's also different this time is that Pai does not need the public pressure to bar Congress from stepping in, that Wheeler did. Back then we were all trying to first explain to the rest, what it was ... today, people generally know but it won't matter.

Even the tax giveaway is not a done deal, with multiple revelations since Sat night that it can't become law as voted on due to all the napkin scribbles done in desperation (and error).

Moore is easier to understand: Abortion. Women, especially white ones, do not care if the man raped in his past. They will not go "against" their tragic misunderstandings of what babies are and are not, and of what murder is and is not. Mix in a little persecution complex and nothing changes down in 'Bama.

Jones might have won (and I'm pretty sure he'll lose ...) if the allegations against Moore came out last week or so, not last month. They've all had time to rationalize since then, and "remember" a convenient wedge issue such as abortion, even though Jones has never said much about in the first place!
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 07:22PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
Quote
vision63
Quote
deckeda
I'm not so pessimistic to think that I'd rather win than be right, which is [Rolando's] central diagnosis and prescription here.

Because the Republican's wrecking ball ain't wrecking you.

Is that because I like what they do, or because I don't live in the U.S.?

.... both answers would be incorrect, but thanks just the same for the assumption/claim?

Oh it's wrecking you, but you don't perceive it. If you did, you wouldn't be saying this. It's not an assumption. It's real. It's weak and it aids and abets the enemy.

Embarrassing. This is a public forum, you know that, yeah?
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: December 06, 2017 08:12PM
Gov. Dayton can find a very liberal Democrat to fill Sen. Franken's term. We certainly don't need another Sen. Klobuchar.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: December 06, 2017 09:15PM
I thought the people of Minnesota should decide this, no? Are we going to have national senators now?
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 06, 2017 09:22PM
Quote
mrbigstuff
I thought the people of Minnesota should decide this, no? Are we going to have national senators now?

You know better than than to pretend the local citizenry alone would/could band together to demand someone's ouster. Or was there already an election coming up soon?
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: December 06, 2017 09:31PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
mrbigstuff
I thought the people of Minnesota should decide this, no? Are we going to have national senators now?

You know better than than to pretend the local citizenry alone would/could band together to demand someone's ouster. Or was there already an election coming up soon?

Huh?
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 06, 2017 09:33PM
Quote
mrbigstuff
I thought the people of Minnesota should decide this, no? Are we going to have national senators now?

Al Franken is making the decision. He knows what's what. Nobody just walks away from a US Senate seat.

It's possible that he doesn't want his wife of 4 decades and adult children to have to hear any more from the women he's grabbed or tried to forcibly kiss.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: December 06, 2017 10:13PM
I feel a value conflict. I highly value true equality and respect for women (I'm really happy for the progress women have made so far and I am all for them moving the agenda forward.) I also highly value the practical aspects of getting a coalition of representatives in office that can have power over federal government decision making. With Franken, in particular, I feel a conflict between those two values.

There is a whole complex social environmental context around the trade-offs of values, so it isn't as simple as "women's rights" values are higher priority than practical political considerations. To what degree are each of those values effected by advocating Franken resign compared to how those values are effected by giving him "a pass"?

What if the governor of Minnesota was a Republican? What if only the first two women had come forward with their stories about what Franken did? It becomes a dizzying "moral" calculus. I certainly don't feel comfortable arguing with either side about it.

But in the particular case of Franken - given the whole social environmental context - I think I lean toward advocating for him to resign.



Edit: Oops, I posted this before seeing the news that Franken is going to resign. I guess my feelings are pretty much the same anyway, though.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2017 10:43PM by Ted King.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: August West
Date: December 06, 2017 10:58PM
I don't know what is so hard about keeping your hands off people who are essentially strangers. I'm fine with Franken being out. That wife, mother, daughter thing outweighs politically expediency in my world.



Picasso in his studio after the liberation of Paris, taken by my friend and mentor.

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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: sekker
Date: December 06, 2017 11:21PM
[fivethirtyeight.com]

I've been quiet because I've watched a ridiculous false accusation of sexual harassment (from someone who appears to have a mental health issue) launch a horrific campaign by HR to find ANYTHING to substantiate the claims. None were found despite nearly 2 decades of service by the accused (the accuser was only in the work unit for 3 months).

Senator Franken was also from a different background, so it was well worth waiting to see whether this was a one-time problem or a serial abuser.

Alas, despite Senator Franken not being nearly as depraved as a pedaphile, he sure seems to have a real issue.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 06, 2017 11:52PM
Quote
August West
I don't know what is so hard about keeping your hands off people who are essentially strangers.

What if they ask for photos with you? Politicians kiss babies. They shake hands. They walk in parades. They also take photos with constituents who generally want you to look like their best buddy. Sometimes there’s a line of people waiting to take pictures with you and you’ve got a couple of seconds per shot, and you throw your arm around them, and they do the same to you. You’d suggest they should insist that such photos be taken at arms length, preferably with the arms of both by their sides, with all hands clearly visible?

Maybe you’re right. It appears that doing otherwise seems to be considered equivalent to grabbing multiple unwilling strangers by the pussy, or workplace sexual harrassment requiring a six-figure financial settlement, or a 30+ year old taking a 14 year old to an isolated place, taking off their clothes and yours, and trying to get them to fondle you.

Sorry, I’m wrong. There’s a BIG difference. Those last three things are entirely acceptable if you’re a Republican.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: December 07, 2017 03:50AM
I'm with Sen. Gillibrand:

"I think when we have to start having to talk about the differences between sexual assault and sexual harassment and unwanted groping, you are having the wrong conversation," she said. "You need to draw a line in the sand, say none of it is okay, none of it is acceptable, and we as elected leaders should absolutely be held to a higher standard not a lower standard. And we should fundamentally be valuing women, and that's where this debate has to go."
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Sam3
Date: December 07, 2017 04:49AM
I sense hypocrisy here. It seems that it is not OK for a Senator or other public figure to touch a woman, but it is OK for a woman to "grope" a Senator?

Look at that photo, her hand is on Sen. Franken's shoulder. So... that is OK?
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: December 07, 2017 07:22AM
Quote
Sam3
I sense hypocrisy here. It seems that it is not OK for a Senator or other public figure to touch a woman, but it is OK for a woman to "grope" a Senator?

Look at that photo, her hand is on Sen. Franken's shoulder. So... that is OK?

When's the last time you confused YOUR ass with your elbow?



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2017 07:22AM by rjmacs.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: December 07, 2017 07:29AM
Quote
Sam3
I sense hypocrisy here. It seems that it is not OK for a Senator or other public figure to touch a woman, but it is OK for a woman to "grope" a Senator?

Look at that photo, her hand is on Sen. Franken's shoulder. So... that is OK?

As long as she doesn't squeeze his shoulder. The woman whose fat folds on her waist got squeezed comes to mind.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Sam3
Date: December 07, 2017 08:18AM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Sam3
I sense hypocrisy here. It seems that it is not OK for a Senator or other public figure to touch a woman, but it is OK for a woman to "grope" a Senator?

Look at that photo, her hand is on Sen. Franken's shoulder. So... that is OK?

When's the last time you confused YOUR ass with your elbow?

Who's talking about ass? It was her waist.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: August West
Date: December 07, 2017 08:34AM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Sam3
I sense hypocrisy here. It seems that it is not OK for a Senator or other public figure to touch a woman, but it is OK for a woman to "grope" a Senator?

Look at that photo, her hand is on Sen. Franken's shoulder. So... that is OK?

When's the last time you confused YOUR ass with your elbow?

jest smiley



Picasso in his studio after the liberation of Paris, taken by my friend and mentor.

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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Janit
Date: December 07, 2017 08:50AM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Sam3
I sense hypocrisy here. It seems that it is not OK for a Senator or other public figure to touch a woman, but it is OK for a woman to "grope" a Senator?

Look at that photo, her hand is on Sen. Franken's shoulder. So... that is OK?

When's the last time you confused YOUR ass with your elbow?

Shoulders and elbows can not be sexualized? The offer of a shoulder massage is often the first step in a sexual advance if the advancer knows that grabbing other parts will be perceived as crude. It is also often the first step in an episode of workplace sexual harassment.
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 07, 2017 04:20PM
Quote
Janit
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Sam3
I sense hypocrisy here. It seems that it is not OK for a Senator or other public figure to touch a woman, but it is OK for a woman to "grope" a Senator?

Look at that photo, her hand is on Sen. Franken's shoulder. So... that is OK?

When's the last time you confused YOUR ass with your elbow?

Shoulders and elbows can not be sexualized? The offer of a shoulder massage is often the first step in a sexual advance if the advancer knows that grabbing other parts will be perceived as crude. It is also often the first step in an episode of workplace sexual harassment.

Exactly! ... So long as there's that context and circumstance, none of which seems to apply here, from the descriptive behavior.

I wouldn't want to be arguing that an arm around a waist is functionally the same as a hand on a shoulder. Even without a "massage" I'd wager one could be interpreted in one way more so than the other, even if each could be totally, potentially innocent. How far you wanna take this?
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: pdq
Date: December 07, 2017 04:40PM
Again, here's Tina Dupuy, grimacing in abject terror while enduring Franken's "groping" of her waist in front of a room full of people. As she says,
she doesn't even let her husband touch her like that in public because she believes it diminishes her as a professional woman.



On the other hand, she also seems to have a "handful of (shoulder) flesh" that she's working pretty hard too.

Whoops. Shoot. I guess she does sometimes let her husband hold her like that in public (at least, I assume that's her husband ("Kari Frisch"?) and not some stranger obviously groping her, at the same party where she says Franken "groped" her):

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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: December 07, 2017 05:47PM
I don't see anything amiss in those pictures, either. Shoulders included.

And that doesn't matter to me.

I'd never even heard of Dupuy before, but yeah, did a very brief Google on her. Seems she's a fellow progressive. And quite frankly, that lends a ton of credence to her story that his behavior was inappropriate. Unless I learn why she might have an ulterior motive, my opinion and vaunted Internet Judgment stands.

If she was conservative, then sorry, yes, I would discount her testimony. Why? Because the political atmosphere is so charged today, that I can't fall on my sword for people I don't personally know.

Are the accusers credible? Do they seem to be, and by what criteria? Is it good enough criteria "just" because she's a woman? Most women might say yes, damnit, that should be enough for anyone.

I'm not going to agree with that, ladies. And it's got nothing to do with them "being women," for reasons I already said.

If I've managed to piss off both sides of this debate, then congrats, you're both wrong! smiling smiley
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Re: Stick a fork in him already...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: December 08, 2017 03:43PM
Quote
deckeda
I don't see anything amiss in those pictures, either. Shoulders included.

And that doesn't matter to me.

I'd never even heard of Dupuy before, but yeah, did a very brief Google on her. Seems she's a fellow progressive. And quite frankly, that lends a ton of credence to her story that his behavior was inappropriate. Unless I learn why she might have an ulterior motive, my opinion and vaunted Internet Judgment stands.

If she was conservative, then sorry, yes, I would discount her testimony. Why? Because the political atmosphere is so charged today, that I can't fall on my sword for people I don't personally know.

Are the accusers credible? Do they seem to be, and by what criteria? Is it good enough criteria "just" because she's a woman? Most women might say yes, damnit, that should be enough for anyone.

I'm not going to agree with that, ladies. And it's got nothing to do with them "being women," for reasons I already said.

If I've managed to piss off both sides of this debate, then congrats, you're both wrong! smiling smiley

I agree.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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