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“Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: January 11, 2018 10:48AM
A very different perspective from an open letter published in the French newspaper Le Monde. The authors are writer/clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst Sarah Chiche; actress and BDSM specialist Catherine Robbe-Grillet; author Peggy Sastre; and author and journalist Abnousse Shalmani, with 100 signatories such as actress Catherine Deneuve.

Here’s an excerpt.

“As women, we don’t recognize ourselves in this feminism that, beyond the denunciation of abuses of power, takes the face of a hatred of men and sexuality. We believe that the freedom to say no to a sexual proposition is not without the freedom to importune. And we consider that one must know how to respond to this freedom to annoy other than by closing ourselves off in the role of the prey.”

“Above all, we are conscious that the human being is not monolithic: a woman can in the same day lead a professional team and enjoy being the sexual object of a man without being a ‘sIut’ nor a vile accomplice of the patriarchy. She can ensure that her salary is equal to that of a man, but not feel forever traumatized by a rub on the subway, even if it’s considered a crime. She can even see it as the expression of a great sexual misery, or a non-event.”

“This vigilante (online) justice has punished men in their jobs, forced some to resign, when all they did was touch a knee, try to steal a kiss, talk about ‘intimate’ matters in a work diner,” they wrote.

“We defend a right to pester, which is vital to sexual freedom,”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2018 11:04AM by Blankity Blank.
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: Ammo
Date: January 11, 2018 11:19AM
Interesting. I wonder if there is a cultural context to this particular point of view in France.



Inside every old person is a young person saying "what happened?"

“Love is the motive, but justice is the instrument.” - Reinhold Niebuhr

“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.” George Orwell
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: January 11, 2018 11:34AM
Let's ask a top U.S. law enforcement executive for an example of aggravated sexual assault:





Great example. Thank you.
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 11, 2018 11:41AM
We are 'recalibrating'.

I've seen women spend a LOT of time avoiding men who ceaseless proposition them.
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: Kraniac
Date: January 11, 2018 12:18PM
good on em..correct. Lessons for the young Americans..
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: bfd
Date: January 11, 2018 12:59PM
Quote
Kraniac
good on em..correct. Lessons for the Young Americans..

Just not the David Bowie lessons… too much disillusion.
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: January 11, 2018 03:45PM
France has weak to nonexistent laws in place against sexual harassment and assault. Honestly it's not a great place to work, as a woman. However, there is currently a push underway to change that.

"Insistently hitting on someone" AT WORK is a crime in the United States if it creates an offensive or hostile work atmosphere. The person doing the hitting does not have to be the target's superior. It's called sexual harassment. Here's more info lest anyone have questions:

It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.
[www.eeoc.gov]
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: Ted King
Date: January 11, 2018 04:19PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
France has weak to nonexistent laws in place against sexual harassment and assault. Honestly it's not a great place to work, as a woman. However, there is currently a push underway to change that.

"Insistently hitting on someone" AT WORK is a crime in the United States if it creates an offensive or hostile work atmosphere. The person doing the hitting does not have to be the target's superior. It's called sexual harassment. Here's more info lest anyone have questions:

It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.
[www.eeoc.gov]

To me, this is really not fundamentally different than an OSHA rule that works to ensure the safety and welfare of workers. Workplaces should be places where workers feel physically and emotionally safe. Government agencies, corporations and small shops need to provide that kind of environment for their workers. It's what a civil society should insist on.

But in any rule making about human behavior, there is always the line making thing. The line making thing is hard to do for most human behavior because human behavior almost always comes in a continuum, so any line seems arbitrary. Sensible sounding arguments can fairly easily be made to push the line a little bit this way along the continuum or a little bit that way. The important thing is that we achieve the goal of the vast, vast majority of us feeling physically and emotionally safe at work.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/2018 04:23PM by Ted King.
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 11, 2018 04:37PM
Well, I think if it's alleged that someone made an unwanted advance, the employer's relationship with that person should be terminated, any contracts with that person should be summarily abrogated, and the name of their radio show should be changed.

But only if you can do so without having to publicly release any justification.
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: max
Date: January 11, 2018 04:47PM
Bullcrap, you dods and the rest of the PC lynch mob are alleging that asking somebody out, once, twice or thrice, is sexual harassment. The French in the OP are calling you out on the concept.

They are absolutely right....

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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: Wags
Date: January 11, 2018 09:44PM
Full letter translated here. Interesting.

[www.worldcrunch.com]
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 12, 2018 12:02AM
‘The essential freedom to offend.’

I like the phrase.

Just so long as it’s not ‘the essential freedom to assault,’ as outlined by 45.
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: January 12, 2018 06:38AM
I hope nobody interprets this letter as representing the majority view or experience of working women in France. It does not.

A new survey reveals that more than one in two French women have been victims of sexual harassment and/or sexual assault. The study comes as a flurry of women are stepping forward to reveal their high profile aggressors including ex-government ministers.
The survey, carried out by polling institute Odoxa for Le Figaro and Franceinfo, revealed that a massive 53 percent of French women have experienced sexual harassment and/or assault at least once in their lives.

This includes sexual assault like touching, putting hands on buttocks and forced kissing, as well as sexual harassment like inappropriate and degrading remarks, sexually related insults and sexual advances.

For 91 percent of the women surveyed, the question of harassment and sexual aggression is an "important" issue today.


[www.thelocal.fr]
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Re: “Rape is a crime... Insistently or awkwardly hitting on someone is not.”
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: January 12, 2018 07:58AM
Watching the intersections of culture and politics is always fascinating, especially with regard to gender. France has a long history of feminism rooted in essentialized notions of sex and gender, quite at odds with other approaches that interrogate the very categories that constitute sex and gender. It leads to fault lines like this, but I am firmly in the second camp.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2018 08:00AM by rjmacs.
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