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Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Kraniac
Date: April 15, 2018 01:34PM
Poll
What to do about prostitution in the United States?
Only registered users are allowed to vote for this poll.
33 votes were received.
Legalize and Regulate? 20
 
61%
Same as above except add the creation of 'Zones' 7
 
21%
Push it further into the shadows where the pimps and traffickers can thrive? 1
 
3%
Let 'em run wild in the streets like the old days.. 5
 
15%



The USA is such a #$%# up when it comes to this stuff..zero balls and literally, lives at stake from every angle in a very large country
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Kraniac
Date: April 15, 2018 01:39PM
By the way..I have a good friend who is a prostitute..She's gay, Puerto Rican, politically active , very funny and smart..and generally honest in the right moment about what she does..and like many sexworkers say...She saves people

..I met her about 7-8 years ago at a Lesbian bar..actually a very mixed joint where we go for the solid music bookings..Her clients are men for the most part and she is over the top frightened by this recent censorship of websites for sexworkers..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2018 01:40PM by Kraniac.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: April 15, 2018 02:15PM
While I could never see myself using the services of a sex worker, that is my choice. For those that do, it should be legal and safe.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: steve...
Date: April 15, 2018 02:34PM
There are legal brothels in Nevada but I'm not sure how it's working out there. Seems like there would still be people not following government regulations or paying taxes, etc.

I think 'Zones' would be a necessity if it were legalized.




Northern California Coast
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 15, 2018 02:45PM
I don't think it's an industry to be encouraged, but we can try to make it safe. Good luck with that in this country, though.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Kraniac
Date: April 15, 2018 03:01PM
Quote
Acer
I don't think it's an industry to be encouraged, but we can try to make it safe. Good luck with that in this country, though.

Encouraged?

It's not called the worlds oldest profession for nothing..it aint going away..I don't think you'll see it on the Montessori curriculum any time soon but hey, it's here to stay : )

But we can't keep repressing it and hoping a bunch of stupid laws and censoring of outlets for this occupation will make it go away..it's so short sighted and regressive...but what the hell are we to expect from the good old USA

MAGA!
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: samintx
Date: April 15, 2018 04:13PM
Quote
Acer
I don't think it's an industry to be encouraged, but we can try to make it safe. Good luck with that in this country, though.

It is OK for the president or congress to screw anything that will hold still for 5 minutes. Religious Right thinks its OK and everyone loves a repentant sinner. But please....don't make prostitution safe and protected.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2018 04:14PM by samintx.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: April 15, 2018 04:15PM
Legalized nationwide only if Donnie and the GOP get their cut. "Possibilities for DACA teens", says Trump.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: space-time
Date: April 15, 2018 07:02PM
Quote
samintx
Quote
Acer
I don't think it's an industry to be encouraged, but we can try to make it safe. Good luck with that in this country, though.

It is OK for the president or congress to screw anything that will hold still for 5 minutes. Religious Right thinks its OK and everyone loves a repentant sinner. But please....don't make prostitution safe and protected.

2 minutes.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Kraniac
Date: April 15, 2018 07:23PM
Quote
space-time
Quote
samintx
Quote
Acer
I don't think it's an industry to be encouraged, but we can try to make it safe. Good luck with that in this country, though.

It is OK for the president or congress to screw anything that will hold still for 5 minutes. Religious Right thinks its OK and everyone loves a repentant sinner. But please....don't make prostitution safe and protected.

2 minutes.

LOL..you could that down to a minute pretty easily i think..and probably happened at some party in the 80's 90's while he was looking for the bathroom.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: April 15, 2018 07:23PM
I am very doubtful that it will be legalized. There are many people with a vested interest in keeping it in the shadows and making hundreds of millions. Legalizing prostitution and decriminalizing drugs needs to be done at the same time since the latter is why a lot of women (and some men) are in prostitution.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 15, 2018 08:05PM
High income countries that have legalized prostitution have higher rates of human trafficking for the commercial sex trade than those where paying for sex is illegal.

This paper investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. According to economic theory, there are two opposing effects of unknown magnitude. The scale effect of legalized prostitution leads to an expansion of the prostitution market, increasing human trafficking, while the substitution effect reduces demand for trafficked women as legal prostitutes are favored over trafficked ones. Our empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries shows that the scale effect dominates the substitution effect. On average, countries where prostitution is legal experience larger reported human trafficking inflows[[/b]/i].

[papers.ssrn.com]

[www.nytimes.com]

If you care about protecting vulnerable adults (mostly women) and children from the worst kinds of exploitation, don't push for the legalization of prostitution. Personally, I don't want to see "sex workers" harassed, but I do think that people who pay for sex should be arrested. They are contributing to a worldwide epidemic, a multi-billion dollar business that exploits women and children.

And please don't mix this up with legalizing recreational drugs, like pot. It's a very different kind of issue.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Kraniac
Date: April 15, 2018 08:37PM
Interesting, Lemon..

But I don't understand the 'substitution' concept.

I have to strongly disagree with your statement about arresting people who pay for sex..These are business arrangements between consenting adults. Not only that..it aint going away, is it? If there is pea rson that needs sex and a person that is selling it..doesn't it come down to two very personal decisions? These are, essentially, things that will never come under regulation in any kind of completely graceful or prefect way. Certainly, any way you cut it..arresting Johns is not gonna do a damn thing..push one drawer closed and another one opens.

I don't know if you're a guy or a girl..but, I think you would learn quite a bit from talking to my friend..Her clients become friends to her and vice versa..These are men..a few women, too.. who don't have an outlet for their sexual desires..for one reason or another..looks, handicaps, emotional issues, isolation..married to women who are not interested in sex..runs the gamut. I think if she heard you say that these people needed to be arrested she'd probably run it down for you in very clear terms.

This @#$%& that happened last week or so ago is nothing but a political 'must' for elected officials and a huge political plus for many others...

Not many of these reps have what it takes to stand up over and over again and make proposals to stop this silly BS and try to come up with a creative, smart way to deal with this spicy issue..it really is an illumination of the simplistic 'insanity' explanation..doing the same thing over and expecting a different result.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/15/2018 08:40PM by Kraniac.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: April 15, 2018 08:57PM
I can't go for legalization unless there was a way to guarantee that the people who are selling themselves are doing it freely and that they and only they are making the money from it. As it is today, prostitution is too often something a person is coerced or forced into and they see only some or none of the money. Your friend might have a happy tale but she would be the exception, not the rule. The merry jolly idea that people selling themselves for money is an innocent business transaction between two adults is like a Disney version of how it works.



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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 15, 2018 09:18PM
Quote
Kraniac
Interesting, Lemon..

But I don't understand the 'substitution' concept.

I have to strongly disagree with your statement about arresting people who pay for sex..These are business arrangements between consenting adults. Not only that..it aint going away, is it? If there is pea rson that needs sex and a person that is selling it..doesn't it come down to two very personal decisions? These are, essentially, things that will never come under regulation in any kind of completely graceful or prefect way. Certainly, any way you cut it..arresting Johns is not gonna do a damn thing..push one drawer closed and another one opens.

I don't know if you're a guy or a girl..but, I think you would learn quite a bit from talking to my friend..Her clients become friends to her and vice versa..These are men..a few women, too.. who don't have an outlet for their sexual desires..for one reason or another..looks, handicaps, emotional issues, isolation..married to women who are not interested in sex..runs the gamut. I think if she heard you say that these people needed to be arrested she'd probably run it down for you in very clear terms.

This @#$%& that happened last week or so ago is nothing but a political 'must' for elected officials and a huge political plus for many others...

Not many of these reps have what it takes to stand up over and over again and make proposals to stop this silly BS and try to come up with a creative, smart way to deal with this spicy issue..it really is an illumination of the simplistic 'insanity' explanation..doing the same thing over and expecting a different result.

Hi I"m Lemon Drop and my pronouns are she/her/hers.

The "substitution theory" is an economic theory that was used in part to justify the legalization of prostitution in places like Holland. It says that legalized prostitution should reduce the amount of human trafficking because legal prostitutes will reduce the demand for illegal ones. That didn't turn out to be the case, in fact the opposite happened. As mentioned in the study I linked above.

What you are describing with your friend is what I would call a "victimless crime." If neither buyer nor seller of the sex is going to the authorities or needs protection from the other, then I don't think anyone is going to worry about that too much. Except the spouses, friends and family of those involved. And I agree that prositution isn't going away. Of course not.

The sad reality is that most sex workers would be doing something else if they believed the could. Many are badly exploited. Many are underage, or otherwise vulnerable people. Prostitution is a crime because there is a victim who society should be protecting. And again that's why I prefer to see the johns arrested, not the hookers. Most of those people just need access to services and resources so they can make a living a different way.

I don't know what political situation you're referring to.

Who really wants to see their daughter, niece, sister, or good friend choose to become a sex worker? Let's get over this myth of the "happy hooker" because that's what it is.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Kraniac
Date: April 15, 2018 09:21PM
Quote
$tevie
I can't go for legalization unless there was a way to guarantee that the people who are selling themselves are doing it freely and that they and only they are making the money from it. As it is today, prostitution is too often something a person is coerced or forced into and they see only some or none of the money. Your friend might have a happy tale but she would be the exception, not the rule. The merry jolly idea that people selling themselves for money is an innocent business transaction between two adults is like a Disney version of how it works.


Nothing's perfect, $tevie..Of course you're correct about pimps manipulating and forcing other human beings to do this..but there are many who are not being forced or coerced..plenty do it to support drug habits, or as a last resort..@#$%& economies make it happen, lots of variables..the point is that keeping it illegal doesn't really help with any of the points you made, right? Merry jolly? hardly..it's a tough world out there but again, what does keeping it illegal bring to your scenario? What does it bring to the lives of those not so merry, jolly people..criminal records that knock them down a few more rungs? And, it is NOT a Disney version of anything...it's something that has been happening since forever and it's a plain old fact..there are Women who accept money, some happily, for sex and men who happily pay for it.

It's really sort of silly to think that putting people in jail on both sides of the transaction is the answer to this..it's been proven over and over again that this doesn't do a damn thing.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Kraniac
Date: April 15, 2018 09:41PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
Kraniac
Interesting, Lemon..

But I don't understand the 'substitution' concept.

I have to strongly disagree with your statement about arresting people who pay for sex..These are business arrangements between consenting adults. Not only that..it aint going away, is it? If there is pea rson that needs sex and a person that is selling it..doesn't it come down to two very personal decisions? These are, essentially, things that will never come under regulation in any kind of completely graceful or prefect way. Certainly, any way you cut it..arresting Johns is not gonna do a damn thing..push one drawer closed and another one opens.

I don't know if you're a guy or a girl..but, I think you would learn quite a bit from talking to my friend..Her clients become friends to her and vice versa..These are men..a few women, too.. who don't have an outlet for their sexual desires..for one reason or another..looks, handicaps, emotional issues, isolation..married to women who are not interested in sex..runs the gamut. I think if she heard you say that these people needed to be arrested she'd probably run it down for you in very clear terms.

This @#$%& that happened last week or so ago is nothing but a political 'must' for elected officials and a huge political plus for many others...

Not many of these reps have what it takes to stand up over and over again and make proposals to stop this silly BS and try to come up with a creative, smart way to deal with this spicy issue..it really is an illumination of the simplistic 'insanity' explanation..doing the same thing over and expecting a different result.

Hi I"m Lemon Drop and my pronouns are she/her/hers.

The "substitution theory" is an economic theory that was used in part to justify the legalization of prostitution in places like Holland. It says that legalized prostitution should reduce the amount of human trafficking because legal prostitutes will reduce the demand for illegal ones. That didn't turn out to be the case, in fact the opposite happened. As mentioned in the study I linked above.

What you are describing with your friend is what I would call a "victimless crime." If neither buyer nor seller of the sex is going to the authorities or needs protection from the other, then I don't think anyone is going to worry about that too much. Except the spouses, friends and family of those involved. And I agree that prositution isn't going away. Of course not.

The sad reality is that most sex workers would be doing something else if they believed the could. Many are badly exploited. Many are underage, or otherwise vulnerable people. Prostitution is a crime because there is a victim who society should be protecting. And again that's why I prefer to see the johns arrested, not the hookers. Most of those people just need access to services and resources so they can make a living a different way.

I don't know what political situation you're referring to.

Who really wants to see their daughter, niece, sister, or good friend choose to become a sex worker? Let's get over this myth of the "happy hooker" because that's what it is.

Im old enough to know that this hyper idealized solution of access to services and resources can work for some but not most..and also that this is a train that keeps on rolling and there are always men and women coming along to step into the empty spots....And please don't insult me with the Happy Hooker crap..you know damn well I'm not trying to paint this as some sort of sunny picture for all involved. That old..who really wants to see their daughter family niece thing..please..it IS gonna happen, it happens every single day and again..jail time and a criminal record don't do a damn thing for them or the Johns..

You can't legislate the world into a big, happy, functional place where everyone is kicking ass..You just can't.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 15, 2018 09:43PM
Johns can be victimized too - and it's interesting to look at who they really are. In Seattle soliciting is a misdemeanor and is now called "sexual exploitation." The city did a big sting operation recently that turned out to be pretty controversial: many of the johns they caught were marginalized people themselves: poor, and recent immigrants. Getting arrest records and having to pay fines does no good for anyone in that group. But most everyone agrees that sex work is dangerous and exploitative and we'd be better off with less of it. I can't see how legalizing it helps at all.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 15, 2018 09:45PM
Quote
Kraniac


You can't legislate the world into a big, happy, functional place where everyone is kicking ass..You just can't.

We absolutely agree on that.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 15, 2018 10:07PM
Legalize, certify, tax.

The only way to remove the criminal element is to remove the crime.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 16, 2018 07:30AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Johns can be victimized too - and it's interesting to look at who they really are. In Seattle soliciting is a misdemeanor and is now called "sexual exploitation." The city did a big sting operation recently that turned out to be pretty controversial: many of the johns they caught were marginalized people themselves: poor, and recent immigrants. Getting arrest records and having to pay fines does no good for anyone in that group. But most everyone agrees that sex work is dangerous and exploitative and we'd be better off with less of it. I can't see how legalizing it helps at all.

So.............

............stigmatizing and criminalizing this work drives at-risk people further from help

............enforcement of criminal penalties inflicts lasting harm for sex workers and johns alike

............people who turn to providing sex work most often do so out of desperate need (for money, drugs, immediate security, etc.), meaning it's not usually a truly voluntary choice

............human traffickers are often not stopped by enforcement that focuses on prostitution activities, because this is exactly the circumstance they are most prepared for

But despite all this, you still find enforcement of criminal statutes re: sex work to be the best option? I think you're giving up a bit early.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2018 07:32AM by rjmacs.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 16, 2018 09:15AM
So.............

............stigmatizing and criminalizing this work drives at-risk people further from help


As I mentioned above, I don't want sex workers to be harassed by law enforcement. I want them to have safety and resources.


............enforcement of criminal penalties inflicts lasting harm for sex workers and johns alike

See above, plus the exploitation is mostly done by johns. Reducing that behavior would be a positive for society.


............people who turn to providing sex work most often do so out of desperate need (for money, drugs, immediate security, etc.), meaning it's not usually a truly voluntary choice

Research among sex workers shows that it is not usually truly a voluntary or desirable choice. Most people in this work would prefer to do something else. Now - there is this crazy "sex worker rescue" business going on that is BS.
I'm not in favor of holding people against their will or "rehabilitating" people who are in fact doing what they want by free choice. The only way to distinguish a voluntary sex worker from a trafficked person is to talk with them in a safe, respectful way with no threat of legal action. I'm for that.


............human traffickers are often not stopped by enforcement that focuses on prostitution activities, because this is exactly the circumstance they are most prepared for

You've got that backwards. Legalizing prostitution increases the amount of human trafficking activity in wealthy countries. It's been shown to do nothing to protect vulnerable people, which is the purpose of making this activity illegal in the first place.


But despite all this, you still find enforcement of criminal statutes re: sex work to be the best option? I think you're giving up a bit early.


Our current approach doesn't work. But I'm waiting for evidence that legalizing this exploitative activity is good for society. Don't see it yet.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 16, 2018 10:26AM
Lots of good points in what you wrote, LD.

Decriminalization doesn't need to be universal or blunt; my goal is to aim enforcement at people who are exploitive and dangerous, and aim resources at people who need help not punishment. [Logical follow-on: I am not prioritizing people who choose to work in the sex industry freely, because those people are least at-risk.]

The Merseyside Model of sex work policing uses the police as a shield for sex workers, de-emphasizing the arrest and prosecution of sex workers whose options have been compromised by abuse, illness, substance use/self-medication, instead focusing on providing protection and resources for a precarious population. This model actively uses an "Ugly Mug' system to track and target violent, abusive, and otherwise problematic johns, helping sex workers avoid violence and police locate violent perpetrators.

It's not perfect, but it does a lot to prevent police from being primary sources of further abuse and victimization toward sex workers. It interrupts one system of punishing people solely for being unfortunate, exploited, and victims of a racist, misogynistic system that abuses people to death.

The 'policing system' in our society is deeply problematic, but it's the system we have now. As we work toward a better system of justice, we can do a lot to prevent the police from producing and worsening problems.

Edit: sadly for us, the Merseyside Model was developed in the UK, and has found very little traction here in the US...



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2018 10:28AM by rjmacs.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: April 16, 2018 11:33AM
It never made sense to me that acting in adult movies is legal but prostitution is illegal. Both involve doing the same basic activity, and both involve being paid for it. The only difference is one gets filmed and the other (generally) doesn't. Seems like a prostitute or pimp could protect themselves by setting up a production company to pay both parties (the "pro" gets the going rate, the john gets a token amount). Then they have a rehearsal.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 16, 2018 11:37AM
Quote
Ombligo
It never made sense to me that acting in adult movies is legal but prostitution is illegal. Both involve doing the same basic activity, and both involve being paid for it. The only difference is one gets filmed and the other (generally) doesn't. Seems like a prostitute or pimp could protect themselves by setting up a production company to pay both parties (the "pro" gets the going rate, the john gets a token amount). Then they have a rehearsal.

Real sex workers don't have these privileges.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2018 11:38AM by rjmacs.
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Ammo
Date: April 16, 2018 12:57PM
Who ever knew prostitution could be so complicated?

DT



Inside every old person is a young person saying "what happened?"

“Love is the motive, but justice is the instrument.” - Reinhold Niebuhr

“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.” George Orwell
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: April 16, 2018 03:41PM
....The minute you walked in the joint
I could see you were a man of distinction
A real big spender
Good lookin' so refined
Say, wouldn't you like to know what's goin' on in my mind?
So let me get right to the point,
I don't pop my cork for every guy I see
Hey big spender
Hey big spender
Hey big spender
Spend, a little time with me......




____________________________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Who thinks prostitution should be legalized and regulated in the USA?
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 16, 2018 09:08PM
Quote
Ombligo
It never made sense to me that acting in adult movies is legal but prostitution is illegal. Both involve doing the same basic activity, and both involve being paid for it. The only difference is one gets filmed and the other (generally) doesn't. Seems like a prostitute or pimp could protect themselves by setting up a production company to pay both parties (the "pro" gets the going rate, the john gets a token amount). Then they have a rehearsal.

Interesting point, had to read up on that to try and understand the legal distinction, but there is a very important one. Acting in a porn film is protected as free expression under the first amendment. Viewing the film is also protected; in this case the viewer is the customer. Interesting arguments here,
[www.cnn.com]
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