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'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: btfc
Date: July 10, 2018 12:32PM
[mobile.nytimes.com]


[www.bbc.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2018 12:33PM by btfc.
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: July 10, 2018 12:48PM
The party of Law & Order.

Dun-dun!
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: July 10, 2018 12:54PM
Considering he put all of BLM land on the open market for pollution, it kind of doesn't make sense.
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: Speedy
Date: July 10, 2018 03:44PM
The alt.White House is just shoring up its support amongst the alt.right. Not that it needs to.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: July 10, 2018 08:40PM
Quote
cbelt3
Considering he put all of BLM land on the open market for pollution, it kind of doesn't make sense.

They were drunk and poaching on protected public lands.

Just like Trump's kids do.

Must have been very endearing to 45.



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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: Acer
Date: July 10, 2018 09:03PM
Has he pardoned anyone other than high-profile drama queens featured on Fox News?
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: max
Date: July 10, 2018 10:50PM
Five years for burning 100 acres of grass was an excessive sentence.
The entire statute should be discarded....




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end.
One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution;
one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: July 11, 2018 05:30AM
Quote
max
Five years for burning 100 acres of grass was an excessive sentence.
The entire statute should be discarded....

139 acres of trees. Their intention was to clear the land so that it was useless for anything but the illegal grazing of their cattle. The fires trapped several people -- including a kid who was a member of their own family -- and four firefighters nearly died.

Their plea bargain admitted guilt for two fires. One in 2001 and one in 2006. In a historic wildlife refuge established by Theodore Roosevelt, where several endangered species lived and kids camped and where the tourism injected about $15 million a year into the local economy.

They agreed in the plea bargain to serve the statutory minimum of 5 years on federal arson charges because they were up against additional charges for making death threats against the land-managers, threatening to frame another land manager for starting the fires that they started, an additional fire in 1999, trying to start several other fires that didn't end up torching the park, using illegal automatic weapons to kill an entire herd of deer (one of the fires was set to cover up the slaughter), witness tampering (threats and assault), and lots of other stuff. Steve Hammond alone was facing 18 felony charges.

And after taking the plea with the mandatory minimum 5 year sentences (with a generous credit for time served), two courts found those sentences to be reasonable.

These are not good people. They certainly did not deserve pardons by any measure.



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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: Ammo
Date: July 11, 2018 09:14AM
Political pardons like these undermine the judiciary in general and diminish respect for the rule of law. This is another dangerous precedent that 45 is setting.



Inside every old person is a young person saying "what happened?"

“Love is the motive, but justice is the instrument.” - Reinhold Niebuhr

“The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.” George Orwell
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: pdq
Date: July 11, 2018 02:36PM
Quote
max
Five years for burning 100 acres of grass was an excessive sentence.
The entire statute should be discarded....

The first (of two fires they set) was set to hide evidence of their poaching. Witnesses said Hammond told them to "light up the whole country on fire".

These are lawless @#$%& who don't care who they endangered. They are not worthy of pardon.
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: max
Date: July 11, 2018 03:15PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
max
Five years for burning 100 acres of grass was an excessive sentence.
The entire statute should be discarded....

139 acres of trees. Their intention was to clear the land so that it was useless for anything but the illegal grazing of their cattle. The fires trapped several people -- including a kid who was a member of their own family -- and four firefighters nearly died.

Their plea bargain admitted guilt for two fires. One in 2001 and one in 2006. In a historic wildlife refuge established by Theodore Roosevelt, where several endangered species lived and kids camped and where the tourism injected about $15 million a year into the local economy.

They agreed in the plea bargain to serve the statutory minimum of 5 years on federal arson charges because they were up against additional charges for making death threats against the land-managers, threatening to frame another land manager for starting the fires that they started, an additional fire in 1999, trying to start several other fires that didn't end up torching the park, using illegal automatic weapons to kill an entire herd of deer (one of the fires was set to cover up the slaughter), witness tampering (threats and assault), and lots of other stuff. Steve Hammond alone was facing 18 felony charges.

And after taking the plea with the mandatory minimum 5 year sentences (with a generous credit for time served), two courts found those sentences to be reasonable.

These are not good people. They certainly did not deserve pardons by any measure.

Then charge them for their actual transgressions, the statute is still excessive for what it is supposed to cover.
it is symptomatic of the existing structural ailment of our legal system, overcriminalizing everything, even the smallest transgressions, federalizing minor crimes, normally covered by the state statutes and the subsequent rampant overcharging by the prosecutors....
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: pdq
Date: July 11, 2018 03:43PM
No, five years is excessive for unknowingly illegally casting a provisional vote with the assistance of a election judge. That's excessive.

Slaughtering a herd of deer on federal land, setting a dangerous wildfire to cover it up, plus witness tampering and assault - I think they're lucky they didn't get more.
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: max
Date: July 11, 2018 09:13PM
Quote
pdq
No, five years is excessive for unknowingly illegally casting a provisional vote with the assistance of a election judge.[/url] That's excessive.

Slaughtering a herd of deer on federal land, setting a dangerous wildfire to cover it up, plus witness tampering and assault - I think they're lucky they didn't get more.

Again, comrehension is not your strong point, pdq, They did not get charged for five years for "slaughtering a herd of deer on federal land", did they, pdq?
And if they did slaughter the deer, they should have been charged for it.
They were not.
Maybe the case was not as cut and dry as you prejudge it,
I dont know, I was not there and it was not something I wanted to spend my time researching.

It is a separate issue.
They were charged for setting a fire.
The statute stipulates five years minimum for the charge of setting any fire to federal property, be it 139 acres according to Chak, or a federal trashcan.
And in either case the statute is excessive.

And still boils down to this, if you want to punish them for "slaughtering a herd of deer on federal land" then charge them for their actual transgressions.
Your defense of this Police State mentality leads establishing mandatory death penalty for jaywalking and then all you need to do to charge every criminal with jaywalking, you wont need to bother to worry the actual details as it will cover everything you might find offensive.
it is symptomatic of the existing structural ailment of our legal system, overcriminalizing everything, even the smallest transgressions, federalizing minor crimes, normally covered by the state statutes and the subsequent rampant overcharging by the prosecutors....




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end.
One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution;
one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: JoeH
Date: July 12, 2018 02:53PM
max, you still don't get it. The charge was Arson on Federal lands, the minimum sentence for that is 5 years. That was the intentional act to set a fire, not some lesser charge for accidentally setting some grass as you wanted it to be at first. They accepted that charge and sentence as part of their plea deal, and the Federal prosecutors agreed to not go further on other pending charges.

You can spew forth all you want about

Quote

And still boils down to this, if you want to punish them for "slaughtering a herd of deer on federal land" then charge them for their actual transgressions.

those charges were on the table, and they probably could have been convicted and sentenced to much more time. The Hammonds accepted the plea deal. Period. They were guilty of arson, as an intentional, criminal act arson often gets a sentence of more than 5 years in many jurisdictions.
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: pdq
Date: July 12, 2018 05:41PM
Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: July 13, 2018 01:11PM
Ummmmm. They were burning the evidence of their illegal hunting. That makes it stupid to charge them with illegal hunting, and necessary to charge them with arson.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: pdq
Date: July 13, 2018 04:29PM
Not to mention (once again) that the Hammonds voluntarily took a plea deal.

This is what they agreed to plead guilty to, knowing the sentence.
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Re: 'Trump Pardons Oregon Men Whose Case Sparked Wildlife Refuge Takeover'
Posted by: TheCaber
Date: July 14, 2018 08:31AM
Well, you know, they are fine people, great people, the best people. Once this injustice is corrected by the pardons, they will be invited to the white house for covfefe, and considered for top level administration posts, such as department of the inferior, environmental dissection agency, bureau of land manglement, and so on. Fine people, only the best.



No collusion! Fake news!



=TC



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2018 08:33AM by TheCaber.
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