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Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Acer
Date: October 09, 2018 08:41AM
Invisible orange hand of the market moves (when pandering is called for):

Trump Will Loosen Ethanol Rules, Aiding Anxious Farmers Ahead of Midterm Elections

[www.nytimes.com]

Ethanol. Let's review. Nice idea in principle, but the economics are quite dubious. Greens have high hopes for biofuels, but the best biofuel uses wastage, not stuff grown just for it. If you are going to grow something for it, it should be something that grows easily with minimal input. Corn, for example, is very water-needy, requires more irrigation the further you go west in the plains. Near net-zero energy-to-produce, energy-it-produces budget. Oil industry hates it because it is expensive, they have to be forced to buy it. Consumers hate it because it reduces MPG, adds to the cost of gasoline.

As for CO2 emissions, here's what factcheck said in 2015:
Quote

In dueling TV ads, foes of the federal ethanol mandate claim that it “doubles greenhouse gas emissions,” while the ethanol lobby says that “the oil industry is lying” and the mandate will lead to lower emissions.

In fact, the scientific jury is still out on whether requirements to blend ethanol with gasoline lead to the lower carbon emissions that Congress intended when it made those requirements law. A 2011 report by the National Research Council, which is part of the U.S. National Academies, found that it may do just the opposite, and the matter is under official review by the Environmental Protection Agency’s internal watchdog.

Furthermore, the ethanol lobby misleads viewers by suggesting that only “big oil” is opposed to the mandate. Several environmental groups oppose it as well. So does a wide coalition that includes restaurant owners concerned about upward pressure on food prices and boat manufacturers upset at the problems that ethanol can cause in marine engines.

One positive: it boosts corn prices in the Red Heartland. They would vote for a greasy NYC real estate con man if he ran as a Republican, so why does he need to pander?
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: samintx
Date: October 09, 2018 09:37AM
Ethanol is so bad for car engines. Is this how 45 will boost the sagging car market? Help corn and cars. All in on fell swoop! Brilliant.
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: October 09, 2018 11:14AM
With the increase in electric vehicles, it will become less and less important.
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: October 09, 2018 01:51PM
It's a giveaway to corporate farms and ethanol distillers. Any increase of ethanol means refineries will be exporting gasoline because they are typically below full capacity. It means more marginal farmland will be used to grow corn and result in more water pollution due to things like increased fertilizer runoff.

Increasing ethanol to 15% will cause problems with recreational vehicles, and most cars, trucks and motorcycles over 10 years old. They will have to gut emissions laws to sell it year round. This will result in increased emissions from both the retail channels and worse tailpipe emissions.



In tha 360. [url=Zee Maps Now requires a subscription/payment to work]MRF User Map[/url]
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: October 09, 2018 07:04PM
Quote
samintx
Ethanol is so bad for car engines. Is this how 45 will boost the sagging car market? Help corn and cars. All in on fell swoop! Brilliant.

It's even worse for small engines with non-sealed fuel systems. We run nothing but non-ethanol in our small engines. We can get 93 octane non-ethanol for $3.30/gallon, right now, a few miles away.



Grateful11
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Speedy
Date: October 09, 2018 07:23PM
I'm fine with ethanol. I add an additive to my mower' gas tank in the fall and all is well come spring. One more market for the farmers! And oxygenated gas is less polluting.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 09, 2018 10:57PM
The president will direct the Environmental Protection Agency to write a rule allowing the blended fuel to be sold year-round. The rule, which will have a public comment period, will be fast-tracked in order to be finalized before next summer’s driving season, the White House official said.

Whether the change was led by the Nazis in his administration or not, I'm sure they're happy that low income children in cities are going to die in greater numbers from athsma and other respiratory problems thanks to the greater ozone/acetaldehyde pollution.



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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: October 10, 2018 02:13PM
Quote
Speedy
And oxygenated gas is less polluting.

No it's not.

It can result in a reduction of tailpipe emissions in cars designed to use it. Period.

1) Without significant effort to eliminate the higher vapor pressures, much more raw fuel is released unless there are vapor recovery systems in place at every step of distribution (eg. urban CARB level controls).
2) Any vehicle that doesn't have advanced fuel injection and emission controls has even odds of increased tailpipe emissions. Added edit: This means all older vehicles and all recreation vehicles and small engines will usually have higher emissions until the majority of those market has been replaced by new models (up to 20 years).



In tha 360. [url=Zee Maps Now requires a subscription/payment to work]MRF User Map[/url]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2018 02:18PM by Filliam H. Muffman.
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Speedy
Date: October 10, 2018 03:19PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
Speedy
And oxygenated gas is less polluting.

No it's not.

It can result in a reduction of tailpipe emissions in cars designed to use it. Period.

1) Without significant effort to eliminate the higher vapor pressures, much more raw fuel is released unless there are vapor recovery systems in place at every step of distribution (eg. urban CARB level controls).
2) Any vehicle that doesn't have advanced fuel injection and emission controls has even odds of increased tailpipe emissions. Added edit: This means all older vehicles and all recreation vehicles and small engines will usually have higher emissions until the majority of those market has been replaced by new models (up to 20 years).

Then don't use it in those applications.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: October 10, 2018 06:27PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Quote
Speedy
And oxygenated gas is less polluting.

No it's not.

It can result in a reduction of tailpipe emissions in cars designed to use it. Period.

1) Without significant effort to eliminate the higher vapor pressures, much more raw fuel is released unless there are vapor recovery systems in place at every step of distribution (eg. urban CARB level controls).
2) Any vehicle that doesn't have advanced fuel injection and emission controls has even odds of increased tailpipe emissions. Added edit: This means all older vehicles and all recreation vehicles and small engines will usually have higher emissions until the majority of those market has been replaced by new models (up to 20 years).

Then don't use it in those applications.

That doesn't eliminate emissions in distribution and retail, or use in older cars and trucks. The only way to prevent use in RVs and small engines is to pass laws prohibiting it and providing more retail outlets for ethanol free. That isn't going to happen with the current Admin.



In tha 360. [url=Zee Maps Now requires a subscription/payment to work]MRF User Map[/url]
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: October 10, 2018 09:59PM
I’d love to be able to buy non ethanol 87. Nothing I own needs 93, but that is all you can buy for non ethanol.

My 2015 gets 3 less mpg highway when I run ethanol gas, which completely negates the cost savings and any tail pipe emissions. If you are burning more of it to go the same distance it doesn’t matter that the emissions per gallon are lower. The net is up, not down. It is a sham to give farmers something to do with all the corn they grow that we don’t need.



C(-)ris
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: October 11, 2018 12:28AM
I have to agree. As an engineer with a basic understanding of energy and how it's used, with the way ethanol is implemented in this country is a sham that hurts everyone except the welfare farmers. Ethanol isn't a bad thing. However, it should be created from sensible sources (bio-waste, and sugar cane grown in parts of the world with plenty of sunlight). And furthermore, engines need to be properly designed for using it 100%. This in fact would be a net carbon neutral energy source. Only question in my mind is can we produce enough ethanol to meet world demands. And that could be answered by how much 'sunlight' needs to be harvested. But I would guess a more efficient use of that sunlight would be to directly create electricity to drive a pure electric economy for ground transportation.
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Speedy
Date: October 11, 2018 11:40AM
Switchgrass is six times better than corn for ethanol production and can be grown anywhere corn can be.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 11, 2018 06:18PM
Quote
Speedy
Switchgrass is six times better than corn for ethanol production and can be grown anywhere corn can be.

CHS doesn't grow enough switchgrass to bother to pay Congress to legislate subsidies for switchgrass.



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Re: Winners & Losers Lottery: Congrats, Ethanol!
Posted by: Acer
Date: October 11, 2018 07:24PM
Switch grass requires a cellulose processing tech, which is hasn't quite reached commercial viability yet.
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