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Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: samintx
Date: October 15, 2018 10:42PM
I would not be for E. Warren in the 1st place...and right before the midtermsOld Fogettebanghead smiley
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Acer
Date: October 15, 2018 11:05PM
Elizabeth...

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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: $tevie
Date: October 15, 2018 11:14PM
Well, it must be a nice break from Republican voter suppression, and hurricane victims, and murder in the Saudi consulate, and Trump family crimes, because everyone across the political spectrum has climbed onto it like ants onto a discarded cinnamon roll.



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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Pam
Date: October 16, 2018 05:41AM
We still keep thinking that conventional tactics work against Trump. Didn't work for other Republicans during the primary, hasn't worked for Republicans since Trump took office, and won't work now. Warren is trolling Trump. She still is well above the bar. Democrats can definitely up their game and needed to even pre Trump. Why is it that we hold Democrats, especially female Democrats to a higher bar than any Republican candidate? The right drives this behavior as it works in their favor.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Speedy
Date: October 16, 2018 06:13AM
"When they go low, we go high."



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: sekker
Date: October 16, 2018 06:13AM
I think this is just a distraction.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 16, 2018 06:39AM
Quote
Pam
We still keep thinking that conventional tactics work against Trump. Didn't work for other Republicans during the primary, hasn't worked for Republicans since Trump took office, and won't work now. Warren is trolling Trump. She still is well above the bar. Democrats can definitely up their game and needed to even pre Trump. Why is it that we hold Democrats, especially female Democrats to a higher bar than any Republican candidate? The right drives this behavior as it works in their favor.

She's making the same fundamental mistake that Hillary Clinton did.

Fighting lying dirtbag a-holes with facts doesn't work.

It's not the lie that Drumpf's followers embrace, it's the cult of personality. If they cared about lies, they would have turned away long ago. They enjoy being "deplorable."



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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Randalls
Date: October 16, 2018 07:07AM
They do enjoy being deplorable. They are the ‘bad widdle kids’ that ride on the coat tails of the ruling class(less)
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: October 16, 2018 10:22AM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Pam
We still keep thinking that conventional tactics work against Trump. Didn't work for other Republicans during the primary, hasn't worked for Republicans since Trump took office, and won't work now. Warren is trolling Trump. She still is well above the bar. Democrats can definitely up their game and needed to even pre Trump. Why is it that we hold Democrats, especially female Democrats to a higher bar than any Republican candidate? The right drives this behavior as it works in their favor.

She's making the same fundamental mistake that Hillary Clinton did.

Fighting lying dirtbag a-holes with facts doesn't work.

What's your advice?



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: October 16, 2018 10:46AM
Quote
rjmacs
What's your advice?

Well, for my reply, I used "Pay up, Fatboy" as a start.
These Dems are not nearly abusive enough.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2018 10:46AM by Steve G..
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: October 16, 2018 10:49AM
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
rjmacs
What's your advice?

Well, for my reply, I used "Pay up, Fatboy" as a start.
These Dems are not nearly abusive enough.

How will amplifying political and cultural anger and division be good for minorities?

This is an honest question, not a gotcha question.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: October 16, 2018 10:52AM
This story was yesterday, it's off the front pages already. Over. She is positioning herself for a 2020 run and so created that website to highlight the DNA story and her humble Oklahoma origins, meant to contrast with silver-spoon Trump. Actually would have been fine had she not tried to use the DNA test to "verifiy" her decades-old claims to have NA heritage. Somebody should've done a little more research on that issue first to save her some embarrassment. It's forgotten now though, move on.

The most important NA story happening right now (IMO) is the ND legislature's effort to stop tribal people from voting. Not Elizabeth Warren, who has never had any privileges or rights denied.

I like her a lot, I think she's a great fighter. I wish folks would not put halos on any of these people, it's never healthy. If she's on the ticket against him in 2020 then heck yeah I'm going to vote for her.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Pam
Date: October 16, 2018 10:57AM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
rjmacs
What's your advice?

Well, for my reply, I used "Pay up, Fatboy" as a start.
These Dems are not nearly abusive enough.

How will amplifying political and cultural anger and division be good for minorities?

This is an honest question, not a gotcha question.

That wasn't her intention but given what has been going on and what is going on in North Dakota, it did come off that way. To native Americans. What she was doing was standing up to a bully rather than sitting down and shutting up. It's just amazing that Trump has said a lot of inflammatory things regarding native Americans yet it's Warren catching the grief.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: October 16, 2018 11:31AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
This story was yesterday, it's off the front pages already. Over. She is positioning herself for a 2020 run and so created that website to highlight the DNA story and her humble Oklahoma origins, meant to contrast with silver-spoon Trump. Actually would have been fine had she not tried to use the DNA test to "verifiy" her decades-old claims to have NA heritage. Somebody should've done a little more research on that issue first to save her some embarrassment. It's forgotten now though, move on.

The most important NA story happening right now (IMO) is the ND legislature's effort to stop tribal people from voting. Not Elizabeth Warren, who has never had any privileges or rights denied.

I like her a lot, I think she's a great fighter. I wish folks would not put halos on any of these people, it's never healthy. If she's on the ticket against him in 2020 then heck yeah I'm going to vote for her.


Spoke too soon - CNN has is back in the headlines as a Warren mistake, but that'll be over in five minutes, no worries.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: October 16, 2018 01:14PM
Quote
Pam
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
rjmacs
What's your advice?

Well, for my reply, I used "Pay up, Fatboy" as a start.
These Dems are not nearly abusive enough.

How will amplifying political and cultural anger and division be good for minorities?

This is an honest question, not a gotcha question.

That wasn't her intention but given what has been going on and what is going on in North Dakota, it did come off that way. To native Americans. What she was doing was standing up to a bully rather than sitting down and shutting up. It's just amazing that Trump has said a lot of inflammatory things regarding native Americans yet it's Warren catching the grief.

To be clear, I wasn't saying that Warren was amplifying political and cultural anger - I was asking Steve G. why he thinks contributing to the escalation of virulent rhetoric is good for minorities. My take on the amping up of 'insult politics' is that it is only good for people who are very well-insulated from harm. This isn't saying people shouldn't speak out against hate, but doing so in a way that keeps the focus on the harm the hate does isn't a bad idea. Just being 'abusive' seems counterproductive to me. Who wants to win a war of incivility?



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Pam
Date: October 16, 2018 02:35PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Pam
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
rjmacs
What's your advice?

Well, for my reply, I used "Pay up, Fatboy" as a start.
These Dems are not nearly abusive enough.

How will amplifying political and cultural anger and division be good for minorities?

This is an honest question, not a gotcha question.

That wasn't her intention but given what has been going on and what is going on in North Dakota, it did come off that way. To native Americans. What she was doing was standing up to a bully rather than sitting down and shutting up. It's just amazing that Trump has said a lot of inflammatory things regarding native Americans yet it's Warren catching the grief.

To be clear, I wasn't saying that Warren was amplifying political and cultural anger - I was asking Steve G. why he thinks contributing to the escalation of virulent rhetoric is good for minorities. My take on the amping up of 'insult politics' is that it is only good for people who are very well-insulated from harm. This isn't saying people shouldn't speak out against hate, but doing so in a way that keeps the focus on the harm the hate does isn't a bad idea. Just being 'abusive' seems counterproductive to me. Who wants to win a war of incivility?

Agreed, no abusiveness or name calling. But there are ways to call out the bully without resorting to his behavior. All Warren did was do an ancestry test. Something lots of people do. It doesn't matter that her native American link is minimal, only that her family folklore held up. And that it was pushed in Trump's face.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: hal
Date: October 16, 2018 03:07PM
I don't see it that way at all - I see it as Trump made her do something that shouldn't have been needed, that she didn't want to do, but was forced to by Trump. That weakens her and strengthens him. Just like the Obama birth certificate.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: numbered
Date: October 16, 2018 03:56PM
Quote
hal
I don't see it that way at all - I see it as Trump made her do something that shouldn't have been needed, that she didn't want to do, but was forced to by Trump. That weakens her and strengthens him. Just like the Obama birth certificate.

+1

When Obama finally gave in to stupidity and released his long form birth certificate, the birther number dropped in half.

Warren figured she could get out from under the bully and put the spotlight on him about $1m to a Native women's charity. Which, if you look at the time line yesterday, is exactly what happened...for a couple of hours. This was the media take.

Until the Natives started complaining about Warren. Note, they are not complaining about Trump. Now it is a Warren own-goal because Natives are sensitive about identity. (Are they not sensitive to Trump?)

Also note that Warren was not claiming tribal membership and a piece of Indian gaming revenue.

And once again progressives are having a Bernie/Hillary argument instead of focusing on Trump.

Thanks Cherokees!
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: $tevie
Date: October 16, 2018 04:51PM
Quote
numbered
And once again progressives are having a Bernie/Hillary argument instead of focusing on Trump.
Exactly. I don't see how we can win in November when progressives insist on stabbing Democrats in the back for perceived flaws.



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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: October 16, 2018 05:00PM
Quote
numbered
Until the Natives started complaining about Warren. Note, they are not complaining about Trump. Now it is a Warren own-goal because Natives are sensitive about identity. (Are they not sensitive to Trump?)

Also note that Warren was not claiming tribal membership and a piece of Indian gaming revenue.

And once again progressives are having a Bernie/Hillary argument instead of focusing on Trump.

Thanks Cherokees!

Really? "Natives are sensitive about identity"? I almost can't believe you're trying to blame indigenous people for the fallout here, but there it is.

Indigenous people across the U.S. have been and are currently protesting the president and his administration, particularly on environmental and justice matters. Don't undercut their work with some glib throwaway sneer.

Also, when people who are not even in your ethnic group are tossing around YOUR IDENTITY like a political hand grenade, it's not being 'sensitive' to be ticked off at the millionth time your whole being and culture has been reduced to a target in a pissing contest between angry white people.

Warren isn't claiming anything except genes these days. She used to claim her "Native American heritage," but heritage is generally considered to be something more meaningful than mere genetic base pairs, a handful of recipes, and a vague family legend about past-generation prejudice... I think she treated her un-investigated indigenous heritage like a 'members only' card, hoping to gain access to spaces white people rarely frequent, only to discover that she didn't know the secret handshake. She probably knew it was wrong then, but she didn't think it mattered. After all, it's not like she had any American Indian colleagues at Harvard to be bothered.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: October 16, 2018 05:01PM
Great piece on this in the New Yorker:

[www.newyorker.com]

Warren has no chance of losing her Senate re-election race in November.

Having a prominent Democrat at odds with a minority community isn't great for Dems in general, I'd agree with that.

Warren is about as "genetically" Indian as the average white person walking around the US right now, maybe a little less. People from Oklahoma tend to have a good bit more Indian acestry than she appears to have. She needs to fix this mess she stepped in, I hope she'll ignore Trump, and do that.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: October 16, 2018 05:13PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Great piece on this in the New Yorker:

[www.newyorker.com]

It's a good article. I was unaware of the prevalence of shared genetic markers between Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinians; you learn something new every day!



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: October 16, 2018 05:56PM
Quote
rjmacs

I was unaware of the prevalence of shared genetic markers between Ashkenazi Jews and Palestinians; you learn something new every day!

Well they both originate in the Middle Eastern same area, what did you expect? Really makes you wonder why Hamas and their crew want to wipe out all the Jews, doesn't it? (Or is fratricide better than mere genocide?)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2018 05:58PM by Steve G..
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: October 16, 2018 07:59PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Pam
We still keep thinking that conventional tactics work against Trump. Didn't work for other Republicans during the primary, hasn't worked for Republicans since Trump took office, and won't work now. Warren is trolling Trump. She still is well above the bar. Democrats can definitely up their game and needed to even pre Trump. Why is it that we hold Democrats, especially female Democrats to a higher bar than any Republican candidate? The right drives this behavior as it works in their favor.

She's making the same fundamental mistake that Hillary Clinton did.

Fighting lying dirtbag a-holes with facts doesn't work.

What's your advice?

The only way to break through to a self-absorbed a-hole is to first humiliate him to the point where his ego is entirely crushed and then build him up again with a better mindset.

It's tough and thankless and often it's better just to drop the slime down an oubliette and forget about it.



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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: max
Date: October 17, 2018 01:32AM
Quote
Pam
All Warren did was do an ancestry test. Something lots of people do. It doesn't matter that her native American link is minimal, only that her family folklore held up. And that it was pushed in Trump's face.

Right, and that little detail of getting tenure at Harvard as a "first woman of color" .
All based on "her family folklore"
Quote

Warren had described herself as a minority on a law professors' listing for several years, ending in 1995.
[forums.macresource.com]
It does not matter if she did use her family @#$%& folklore to advance her career...
Quote

“Warren self-identified as a ‘Native American’ in the Association of American Law Schools Directory of law professors in every edition printed between 1986 -1995.”
[www.nationalreview.com]




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end.
One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution;
one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: October 17, 2018 07:21AM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Sarcany
She's making the same fundamental mistake that Hillary Clinton did.

Fighting lying dirtbag a-holes with facts doesn't work.

What's your advice?

The only way to break through to a self-absorbed a-hole is to first humiliate him to the point where his ego is entirely crushed and then build him up again with a better mindset.

It's tough and thankless and often it's better just to drop the slime down an oubliette and forget about it.

But what's your advice? I mean, how do you propose that anyone, or any group of people, "humiliate him to the point where his ego is entirely crushed"? Tough and thankless I can do, but what you're talking about isn't remotely practical or possible.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: October 17, 2018 10:26AM
Quote
Sarcany
The only way to break through to a self-absorbed a-hole is to first humiliate him to the point where his ego is entirely crushed and then build him up again with a better mindset.

That won't work...

"Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a long-term pattern of abnormal behavior characterized by exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, and a lack of understanding of others' feelings."

Signs and symptoms
People with narcissistic personality disorder are characterized by their persistent grandiosity, excessive need for admiration, and a disdain and lack of empathy for others. These individuals often display arrogance, a sense of superiority, and power-seeking behaviors. Narcissistic personality disorder is different from having a strong sense of self-confidence. This is because people with NPD typically value themselves over others to the extent that they disregard the feelings and wishes of others and expect to be treated as superior regardless of their actual status or achievements. In addition, people with NPD may exhibit fragile egos, an inability to tolerate criticism, and a tendency to belittle others in an attempt to validate their own superiority."

"Therapy is often difficult as people frequently do not consider themselves to have a problem."
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: max
Date: October 18, 2018 07:52AM
Quote
DeusxMac

That won't work...


Thanks for sharing your experience....




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end.
One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution;
one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: $tevie
Date: October 19, 2018 10:55AM
Fact Checker Analysis
Just about everything you’ve read on the Warren DNA test is wrong

[www.washingtonpost.com]



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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: October 19, 2018 11:06AM
Quote
$tevie
Fact Checker Analysis
Just about everything you’ve read on the Warren DNA test is wrong

[www.washingtonpost.com]

You know who isn't wrong? Kim TallBear.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: October 19, 2018 11:22AM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
$tevie
Fact Checker Analysis
Just about everything you’ve read on the Warren DNA test is wrong

[www.washingtonpost.com]

You know who isn't wrong? Kim TallBear.

and the Cherokee Nation


They're not talking about fractions. It's an entirely different conversation than the inane talking points Warren's Republican opponents have thrown around.

And that article, based on this one from the NY Times, I believe, points out in even stronger terms why it was ridiculous for Warren to use that DNA test to try and make some point about her heritage or minority experience.

[www.nytimes.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2018 11:27AM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Please stop Elizabeth
Posted by: max
Date: October 20, 2018 01:23PM
Quote
Lemon Drop

They're not talking about fractions. It's an entirely different conversation than the inane talking points Warren's Republican opponents have thrown around.
Hardly inane use of the media idiocy in this crash and burn episode during their serial eruption of Trump Derangement Syndrome....
Quote

We are not trying to defend Warren’s decision to release the test, just to set the record straight about what the test shows. The media bungled the interpretation of the results — and then Warren’s opponents used the uninformed reporting to undermine the test results even further. We fell into this trap as well, and were too quick to send out a tweet (now deleted) that made an inaccurate comparison. We should have not relied on media reporting before tweeting.

All extremely entertaining.....




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end.
One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution;
one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."
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