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Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 12, 2019 09:38AM
""The essential function of government is to protect the most vulnerable among us, those who do not have a voice," DeWine said during the signing ceremony at the Statehouse in Columbus. "Government's rule should be to protect life from the beginning to the end, to protect those who cannot protect themselves. ... The signing of this bill today is consistent with that respect for life."
[www.upi.com]

Provisions addressing contraceptive education and use, pre- and post-natal health, childcare for working families, and early childhood education conspicuously absent. I'm sure they'll get to those soon, since government's rule should be to protect life from the beginning to the end.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 12, 2019 09:52AM
It's like these governors are an arm of ACLU and Planned Parenthood fundraising.

Similar laws are 0-4 in federal court. Good luck Ohio.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 12, 2019 10:53AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
It's like these governors are an arm of ACLU and Planned Parenthood fundraising.

Similar laws are 0-4 in federal court. Good luck Ohio.

Dewine basically said that he knows they will lose in the lower courts, but this and other laws are aimed at the Kavanaugh Kourt.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 12, 2019 11:41AM
Quote
Acer
""The essential function of government is to protect the most vulnerable among us...

The essential functions of government are to protect the borders, keep up the roads, and to promote commerce and the general welfare of the citizenry.

This is in no way benefiting anyone in any fashion other than politically. It is a failure of government when laws like these pass, not a success.



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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 12, 2019 11:42AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
It's like these governors are an arm of ACLU and Planned Parenthood fundraising.

Similar laws are 0-4 in federal court. Good luck Ohio.

They're stacking the federal courts with mindless lackeys at an incredible rate these days. A subtle poison that will cripple this nation for decades to come.



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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: pdq
Date: April 12, 2019 11:52AM
More pointless posturing for their base.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 12, 2019 02:24PM
When will the war on women stop? Small minded (or something else) men.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: April 12, 2019 03:26PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Lemon Drop
It's like these governors are an arm of ACLU and Planned Parenthood fundraising.

Similar laws are 0-4 in federal court. Good luck Ohio.

Dewine basically said that he knows they will lose in the lower courts, but this and other laws are aimed at the Kavanaugh Kourt.

The Court has refused to take this case in the past. It's hard to see with so many lower courts rejecting it that they would take it up. I don't think they will. This is wishful thinking by the anti-choice crowd.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: April 12, 2019 04:09PM
Quote
Pam
When will the war on women stop? Small minded (or something else) men.

Men do make up a too disproportionate share of anti-abortion activists and way disproportionate share of legislators and governors who make anti-abortion laws. I don't doubt that that disproportionality is in large part due to the fact that men don't have the intensely personal biological stake in pregnancy that women do. But here's the but, there are a quite significant number of women who are strong advocates for anti-abortion laws. I think that overall in terms of motivation, a much bigger factor is a belief that a person (with a soul) is created at conception (or thereabouts). A large majority of them think that an abortion that terminates the development of a fetus is killing a person. (Admittedly, there are other things that motivate some anti-abortionists, though.) They feel so strongly about this belief about fetuses that they are willing to enforce their view on women who don't have that view. Maleness does matter to degree, for sure, but this belief about fetuses (what I consider to be an erroneous belief) is, I think, the most dominate factor.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2019 04:37PM by Ted King.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 12, 2019 06:36PM
Quote
Ted King
I think that overall in terms of motivation, a much bigger factor is a belief that a person (with a soul) is created at conception (or thereabouts). A large majority of them think that an abortion that terminates the development of a fetus is killing a person.

This is one of the things that amazes me.

Because historically, no major religion has held that tenet. Catholics who believed it were in the minority. Popular saints' "miracles" included providing abortions. Most evangelicals held that life began at birth, right up until the 1960s.

This country is weird.



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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 12, 2019 06:56PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Ted King
I think that overall in terms of motivation, a much bigger factor is a belief that a person (with a soul) is created at conception (or thereabouts). A large majority of them think that an abortion that terminates the development of a fetus is killing a person.

This is one of the things that amazes me.

Because historically, no major religion has held that tenet. Catholics who believed it were in the minority. Popular saints' "miracles" included providing abortions. Most evangelicals held that life began at birth, right up until the 1960s.

This country is weird saturated with a deep attachment to supremacism (in this case, over women) that warps and distorts its politics and culture.

Slightly different take.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: April 12, 2019 07:21PM
[www.pewforum.org]

Quote

Views on abortion by religious affiliation, 2018

About six-in-ten white evangelical Protestants (61%) think abortion should be illegal in all or most cases.

By contrast, 74% of religiously unaffiliated Americans say abortion should be legal in all or most cases, as do two-thirds of white mainline Protestants (67%).

Catholics are somewhat more divided; 51% say abortion should be legal in all or most cases and 42% say it should be illegal.

Quote

Views on abortion by gender, 2018

Men and women express similar views on abortion; 60% of women say it should be legal in all or most cases, as do 57% of men.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 12, 2019 09:08PM
Abortion is all about suppressing women’s rights. Reproduction has been used to suppress women for thousands of years.

The Catholic ‘tradition’ hates birth control for this reason. In the US, they lost that fight and use abortion as the surrogate.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deeply missing the Big Point.

Took me decades to understand this horrible truth.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: April 12, 2019 09:20PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
Ted King
I think that overall in terms of motivation, a much bigger factor is a belief that a person (with a soul) is created at conception (or thereabouts). A large majority of them think that an abortion that terminates the development of a fetus is killing a person.

This is one of the things that amazes me.

Because historically, no major religion has held that tenet. Catholics who believed it were in the minority. Popular saints' "miracles" included providing abortions. Most evangelicals held that life began at birth, right up until the 1960s.

This country is weird.

I do think that since that transition [bolded above] happened that the beliefs about fetal personhood are genuinely felt by a great many individuals, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the push for the "fetus is person" interpretation within Evangelical communities came from white men who were making decisions that sprang from a strong streak of paternalism if not outright misogyny.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Ted King
Date: April 12, 2019 09:33PM
Quote
sekker
Abortion is all about suppressing women’s rights. Reproduction has been used to suppress women for thousands of years.

The Catholic ‘tradition’ hates birth control for this reason. In the US, they lost that fight and use abortion as the surrogate.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is deeply missing the Big Point.

Took me decades to understand this horrible truth.

It could be that the genesis of anti-abortion views is found in paternalism and misogyny, but I don't think we should dismiss all those who say they believe the fetal personhood proposition as being dishonest and having the real goal of suppressing women. I think a lot of anti-abortion people genuinely believe in fetal personhood as a fundamental moral stance in and of itself. I think it is a misguided belief and it could very well be that they were manipulated into having that belief, but I don't at all feel comfortable generalizing their fundamental motive as being one of wanting to suppress women's rights.

I don't think I'm disagreeing with what you said, just kind of looking at the "is all about" part and making some observations about what I see.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2019 09:39PM by Ted King.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 12, 2019 11:14PM
>I think a lot of anti-abortion people genuinely believe in fetal personhood as a fundamental moral stance in and of itself.

I recently got into a discussion regarding abortion with someone I know via environmentalism. Her take on environmentalism always made me a bit uneasy - a list of people and illnesses that failed to add up to data. She didn't even think medical abortions should be allowed, as doctors are simply mistaken if they think its necessary to terminate a fetus to save a woman.

My take away - its all about certainty.

Being anti-abortion is very simple. One very simple thing is important and pushes _all_ other details out of view.

...and _that_ is something I find offensive.



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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 12, 2019 11:46PM
Ted is on track. None of the pro-life men and women I know are pro-life because of some conspiracy to promote paternalism or misogyny. It is, for them, 100% about the personhood of the fetus. Pointing out to them that they have been manipulated by popes or politicians carries little weight because personhood is a moral certainty. Asserting this personhood is so morally fundamental that, apparently, it cannot be wrong even if the political party that has this plank is mostly ignoring the implications of taking these pregnancies to term.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 13, 2019 01:54AM
I have a wife who is adamant that abortion shouldn't be used in place of personal responsibility especially failure to use birth control.

But she's not the person I was talking about. I'm making the political argument - it's views like my wife's that are being manipulated to keep women down.

As I said, it's taken me decades to sort this out.

Without reproductive rights, women will always have fewer rights in their culture. There are many ways to accomplish this - and not just access to abortions, could make maternity leave mandatory and good day care, for example, making the burden of parenthood less demanding on women.

But until one realizes the politics underlying this fight, we fight the wrong fight.
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Re: Dewine signs heartbeat bill...
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 13, 2019 06:07AM
Quote
Ted King
Quote
Pam
When will the war on women stop? Small minded (or something else) men.

Men do make up a too disproportionate share of anti-abortion activists and way disproportionate share of legislators and governors who make anti-abortion laws. I don't doubt that that disproportionality is in large part due to the fact that men don't have the intensely personal biological stake in pregnancy that women do. But here's the but, there are a quite significant number of women who are strong advocates for anti-abortion laws. I think that overall in terms of motivation, a much bigger factor is a belief that a person (with a soul) is created at conception (or thereabouts). A large majority of them think that an abortion that terminates the development of a fetus is killing a person. (Admittedly, there are other things that motivate some anti-abortionists, though.) They feel so strongly about this belief about fetuses that they are willing to enforce their view on women who don't have that view. Maleness does matter to degree, for sure, but this belief about fetuses (what I consider to be an erroneous belief) is, I think, the most dominate factor.

The overwhelming majority of Americans support choice. This whole anti abortion movement was manufactured to combat integration! Religious tenets had held the belief that life began at birth. With the first breath. Only the Catholic church who still doesn't support birth control was the only religious group that batted an eyelash over Roe v Wade. But integration was another matter. White parents pulled their kids out of public schools and placed them into private schools with federal funding. Then started losing case after case in court over their discrimination. This bloc that became the religious right needed a different approach to gain political power. And abortion was selected. Religious tenets were changed to accommodate this new battle and the pulpit used to rewrite beliefs. This voting bloc was also almost immediately used to fight against women's rights. Because feminists were a threat to the very fabric of society. Like racial equality. It's a hateful patriarchal bloc. It's making inroads in fighting discrimination laws. It's original goal. That some women support it is meaningless. Women can be against women just as much as a man. But make no mistake the abortion component is a war on women.
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