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Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: May 15, 2019 06:49PM
The wrong side of history. By the hand of a woman. A nightmare.

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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: May 15, 2019 06:54PM
They didn't succeed in leaving the United States. Now they are trying to secede from the 21st Century.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: timg
Date: May 15, 2019 07:04PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
The wrong side of history. By the hand of a woman. A nightmare.

She's post-menopausal. She is unqualified to make this decision. Someone with a stake in the game should be consulted.

I really hope this gets overturned and other states don't start following their lead.



Skill without imagination is craftsmanship. Imagination without skill is Modern Art.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: May 15, 2019 07:05PM




In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Blankity Blank
Date: May 15, 2019 07:31PM
Quote
timg
Quote
Blankity Blank
The wrong side of history. By the hand of a woman. A nightmare.

She's post-menopausal. She is unqualified to make this decision. Someone with a stake in the game should be consulted.

I really hope this gets overturned and other states don't start following their lead.

Everybody is saying these draconian laws are just to get their ticket stamped for a trip to the SCOTUS. That will be the big dance.

It could be closer than might be thought, even after Kavanaugh. Some justices are making noises that they may be uncomfortable, even unwilling, to overturn ‘settled law’ without a 24 karat gold case.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: timg
Date: May 15, 2019 07:50PM
Quote
Blankity Blank
Quote
timg
Quote
Blankity Blank
The wrong side of history. By the hand of a woman. A nightmare.

She's post-menopausal. She is unqualified to make this decision. Someone with a stake in the game should be consulted.

I really hope this gets overturned and other states don't start following their lead.

Everybody is saying these draconian laws are just to get their ticket stamped for a trip to the SCOTUS. That will be the big dance.

It could be closer than might be thought, even after Kavanaugh. Some justices are making noises that they may be uncomfortable, even unwilling, to overturn ‘settled law’ without a 24 karat gold case.

What is the "settled law" in this case? Is it in favor of upholding or overturning this ridiculous law?



Skill without imagination is craftsmanship. Imagination without skill is Modern Art.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: deckeda
Date: May 15, 2019 08:09PM
For Alabama:

Hope #1 is that Alabama conflicts so much with Roe (but is seen as reasonable) that Roe must therefore go away. They do not care that SCoTUS' reputation would be ruined by overturning settled law.

Hope #2 is that Alabama does not conflict too much with Roe (but is still seen as reasonable) such that Alabama's law is sustained and becomes a guide for additional states. They do not care if Roe persists-but-isn't-enforced, rendering it and SCoTUS' reputation as ruined.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: deckeda
Date: May 15, 2019 08:16PM
Quote
timg
She's post-menopausal. She is unqualified to make this decision. Someone with a stake in the game should be consulted.

I really hope this gets overturned and other states don't start following their lead.

As a man who also considers abortion restrictions such as this insane, I'd hope our opinions aren't unqualified. In other words my opinion isn't random and I presume yours isn't, either.

My late mother was post-menopausal and I know she would be similarly alarmed at this invasion.

This is how modern society works: we can recognize when we have a stake in the game even when the particular issue might not impact us directly. And I'd wager you agree with that if you think Alabama's new law to be horrible.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2019 08:17PM by deckeda.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: sekker
Date: May 15, 2019 08:38PM
Just another attack on women.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: May 15, 2019 09:08PM
While most people believe Roe v Wade legalized abortion, what it really did was establish a woman's right to privacy to have an abortion. When and if Roe is overturned, the privacy goes away and some other rights could very well be in jeopardy as well.

Griswald v Connecticut was the first use of the principle of privacy under the 14th amendment. Without that ruling, there is no right to birth control. Hardcore anti-abortion activists have long held that some forms of birth control should be outlawed. That would include any medication like the pill which works because it stops fertilized eggs from implanting. Those medications are viewed as aborticides by many and could be the next target of their campaign.

Likewise, some cases that followed Roe would be in trouble because they built on the rights under the 14th amendment established by Roe. This would include Lawrence v. Texas, which invalidated a Texas law that criminalized sex between two men. More recently it would also include 2015's Obergefell v. Hodges decision which legalized same-sex marriage.

So this potentially goes far beyond abortion. That fact will empower the hardcore who will push for further restrictions on lifestyle choices they find objectionable. Conversely, it may also give pause to some who understand and appreciate that there is far more at stake than the right to an abortion.

This decision could very easily be seen as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

"WE CALL BS!" -- Emma Gonzalez
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: May 16, 2019 07:44AM
Quote
Ombligo
While most people believe Roe v Wade legalized abortion, what it really did was establish a woman's right to privacy to have an abortion. When and if Roe is overturned, the privacy goes away and some other rights could very well be in jeopardy as well.

Griswald v Connecticut was the first use of the principle of privacy under the 14th amendment. Without that ruling, there is no right to birth control. Hardcore anti-abortion activists have long held that some forms of birth control should be outlawed. That would include any medication like the pill which works because it stops fertilized eggs from implanting. Those medications are viewed as aborticides by many and could be the next target of their campaign.

Likewise, some cases that followed Roe would be in trouble because they built on the rights under the 14th amendment established by Roe. This would include Lawrence v. Texas, which invalidated a Texas law that criminalized sex between two men. More recently it would also include 2015's Obergefell v. Hodges decision which legalized same-sex marriage.

So this potentially goes far beyond abortion. That fact will empower the hardcore who will push for further restrictions on lifestyle choices they find objectionable. Conversely, it may also give pause to some who understand and appreciate that there is far more at stake than the right to an abortion.

This decision could very easily be seen as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Most of this is quite right, Ombligo - Roe is about a lot more than Roe, and being fully overturned would have massive consequences beyond abortion. It's unlikely that the Court will undo Roe wholesale.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 16, 2019 08:56AM
Why the focus on Kay Ivey? Any veto would have been easily overcome by the white men who make up the majority of the Alabama legislature.

The 25 Alabama State Senators who voted yes for this law, which gives more rights to men who rape or commit incest than to pregnant women, are all white males.

Not a single woman in the Alabama legislature voted for this bill.

I've seen in other threads people saying something like well this should teach women a lesson about voting? What???

Women vote at a higher rate than men, but are still badly underrepresented in the halls of power. (women were 55% of electorate in 2016 v 45% men)

More women voted for Hillary than for Trump. He won white women, but not women in general. Women voted 54% for HIllary v 39% for Trump. Men voted 52% for Trump and 41% for Hillary.

I'm going to find it very difficult to support any white man in this upcoming presidential race. Why would we trust a white man?
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: May 16, 2019 09:48AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Why the focus on Kay Ivey? Any veto would have been easily overcome by the white men who make up the majority of the Alabama legislature.

For the same reason that people would criticize a gay person for supporting and signing a Traditional Marriage Amendment that defines matrimony as a bond between one cisgendered man and one cisgendered woman.

Is she singularly responsible for this? Of course not. But she's signing away rights she should understand better than the men who passed the law. She is betraying all women, just as the legislature is - the difference is that she is a woman.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 16, 2019 10:16AM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Lemon Drop
Why the focus on Kay Ivey? Any veto would have been easily overcome by the white men who make up the majority of the Alabama legislature.

For the same reason that people would criticize a gay person for supporting and signing a Traditional Marriage Amendment that defines matrimony as a bond between one cisgendered man and one cisgendered woman.

Is she singularly responsible for this? Of course not. But she's signing away rights she should understand better than the men who passed the law. She is betraying all women, just as the legislature is - the difference is that she is a woman.

Conveniently diverting attention from the people responsible for this law.

She had no power to bring this into law, only the legislature could do that. But she clearly like many American women believes that abortion is morally wrong.

Also - I don't think the marriage equality example works here. The vast majority of gay people supported marriage equality. Women are pretty evenly split on abortion and tend to hold similar views to men on this issue. Some recent polls actually show more support for abortion rights among men than among women. I find nothing about Ivey's decision unexpected. This is her core moral belief and that was well known about her.

If we continue to elect people who make decisions based on religious belief, as we do frequently in the south and midwest, then we'll stay on a steady path to widespread criminalization of abortion,. That's been the conservative dream since the 70's as we know.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: May 16, 2019 10:31AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Lemon Drop
Why the focus on Kay Ivey? Any veto would have been easily overcome by the white men who make up the majority of the Alabama legislature.

For the same reason that people would criticize a gay person for supporting and signing a Traditional Marriage Amendment that defines matrimony as a bond between one cisgendered man and one cisgendered woman.

Is she singularly responsible for this? Of course not. But she's signing away rights she should understand better than the men who passed the law. She is betraying all women, just as the legislature is - the difference is that she is a woman.

Conveniently diverting attention from the people responsible for this law.

She had no power to bring this into law, only the legislature could do that. But she clearly like many American women believes that abortion is morally wrong.

Also - I don't think the marriage equality example works here. The vast majority of gay people supported marriage equality. Women are pretty evenly split on abortion and tend to hold similar views to men on this issue. Some recent polls actually show more support for abortion rights among men than among women. I find nothing about Ivey's decision unexpected. This is her core moral belief and that was well known about her.

If we continue to elect people who make decisions based on religious belief, as we do frequently in the south and midwest, then we'll stay on a steady path to widespread criminalization of abortion,. That's been the conservative dream since the 70's as we know.

I'm going to call mild shenanigans, because you are making an argument that:

  1. Men are somehow more responsible for this law than women, and
  2. Women make up a majority of the electorate and are largely as pro-life as men, if not moreso.


I'm not sure how this squares with letting Kay Ivey off the hook, but it doesn't add up for me.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: deckeda
Date: May 16, 2019 10:56AM
At some point, a Governor’s responsibility is higher than any legislature’s. If the buck never stops anywhere, we’re literally back to blaming George Washington for everything wrong in America. Careful, it’s an easy argument to make if we want to ignore relevancy.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: May 16, 2019 11:51AM
LD, you continue to be dogmatic in your defenses of women - ANY woman.

As noted above, your declarations contradict each other.

And of Ivey, you attempt to mitigate her actions because “she clearly like many American women believes that abortion is morally wrong”, but seem totally unwilling to concede that any of the male legislators could possibly share that belief.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 16, 2019 12:39PM
I am not DEFENDING nor mitigating Kay Ivey's actions. I'm accurately describing her role here. Others are not. She did not have the power to STOP this from becoming law in Alabama. Stop pretending that she has that power.

DM you apparently have never read most of my comments here if you think I dogmatically defend all women. That's baloney. Check out most of what I've said about Elizabeth Warren and her Indian issues.

Men are MORE RESPONSIBLE for the passage of this Alabama law because look at who is in the legislature of Alabama and how they voted. This is about math people. Very simple.


no Deckeda, a Governor's role is DIFFERENT than the legislators but not HIGHER. That's a fundamental principal of the US Constitution and of every state constitution.
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: May 16, 2019 01:05PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
I am not DEFENDING nor mitigating Kay Ivey's actions. I'm accurately describing her role here. Others are not. She did not have the power to STOP this from becoming law in Alabama. Stop pretending that she has that power.

You've basically said that she can't be expected to veto a law knowing that her veto would be overridden. That's a pragmatic, not a moral, argument. Fine, but you're right - it's not a defense of Ivey as a person, just as a politician. You've also tacitly acknowledged that since she's pro-life herself, it would't make political sense for her to veto. Which again, is not a defense of her as a person.

The only real power Kay Ivey had in this situation was the power to act morally and veto an unjust law because it is wrong to tell an 11 year old who's been raped repeatedly by her father that she'll have to testify against dear old Dad in between OB appointments as she is compelled to bear his child. But it's not important that she exercise that power, apparently. This isn't just an anti-abortion law - this is ALSO a state-sanctioned nightmare for abused children. But Kay doesn't care about that.

Quote
Lemon Drop
Men are MORE RESPONSIBLE for the passage of this Alabama law because look at who is in the legislature of Alabama and how they voted. This is about math people. Very simple.

Who elected those men? In 2018 55% of voters in AL were women.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 16, 2019 03:59PM
I didn't say she should not be expected to veto the law.

I said a veto would not have created a different outcome for this law and that is true. Her veto would have been overridden.

I am not defending her I am describing her.

You are expressing your own moral value judgement about this law when you say she could have "acted morally." In her view that is exactly what she did when she signed this bill into law.

The Alabama House member who sponsored this bill is also a woman.

This is more about ideology than gender, but the gender imbalance in political power is stark in places like Alabama and it makes a difference:

the dearth of women’s voices in the Alabama legislature, particularly on an issue as intimate as pregnancy, has created a serious representation problem. While women comprise 51 percent of Alabama’s population, they make up just 15 percent of the legislature — among the worst gender ratios in the country, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Coleman-Madison compared Tuesday’s all-male yea vote to a “dentist making a decision about a heart surgery.”

“At the end, it’s the concept of strength in numbers,” said Coleman-Madison, who, like Figures, personally opposes abortion but doesn’t believe in making the procedure illegal. “That’s why we need more women to run for office. These decisions are going to be made whether we like it or not, and more likely we’re not going to like it when decisions like this one, about a woman and her health, are being made by all the men."

[www.washingtonpost.com]
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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: AllGold
Date: May 16, 2019 07:41PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
...
the dearth of women’s voices in the Alabama legislature, particularly on an issue as intimate as pregnancy, has created a serious representation problem. While women comprise 51 percent of Alabama’s population, they make up just 15 percent of the legislature — among the worst gender ratios in the country, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Coleman-Madison compared Tuesday’s all-male yea vote to a “dentist making a decision about a heart surgery.”

“At the end, it’s the concept of strength in numbers,” said Coleman-Madison, who, like Figures, personally opposes abortion but doesn’t believe in making the procedure illegal. “That’s why we need more women to run for office. These decisions are going to be made whether we like it or not, and more likely we’re not going to like it when decisions like this one, about a woman and her health, are being made by all the men."

[www.washingtonpost.com]

I'm not sure exactly what my point is here confused smiley... In terms of the dearth of women's voices in the Alabama legislature, we don't know the whole story. Yes, I'm being lazy instead of researching it myself, but what percentage of women ran for the open seats?



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Re: Governor Kay Ivey signs Alabama anti abortion bill into law
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 16, 2019 09:10PM
Quote
AllGold
Quote
Lemon Drop
...
the dearth of women’s voices in the Alabama legislature, particularly on an issue as intimate as pregnancy, has created a serious representation problem. While women comprise 51 percent of Alabama’s population, they make up just 15 percent of the legislature — among the worst gender ratios in the country, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Coleman-Madison compared Tuesday’s all-male yea vote to a “dentist making a decision about a heart surgery.”

“At the end, it’s the concept of strength in numbers,” said Coleman-Madison, who, like Figures, personally opposes abortion but doesn’t believe in making the procedure illegal. “That’s why we need more women to run for office. These decisions are going to be made whether we like it or not, and more likely we’re not going to like it when decisions like this one, about a woman and her health, are being made by all the men."

[www.washingtonpost.com]

I'm not sure exactly what my point is here confused smiley... In terms of the dearth of women's voices in the Alabama legislature, we don't know the whole story. Yes, I'm being lazy instead of researching it myself, but what percentage of women ran for the open seats?

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