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Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 21, 2019 08:38AM
Cops called to drag legislators back from Iowa. [www.washingtonpost.com]

A strange tradition perpetrated over the years from both sides of the aisle.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: mstudio
Date: June 21, 2019 09:10AM
Not a big fan of this ploy, but I can see where it may have some merit at times. Mostly it’s a way of telling constituents that “We’ve done all we can”.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 21, 2019 09:32AM
I think any constituent who thinks this emotional tug does anything more than waste taxpayer dollars on state troopers rounding them up is misinformed.

If you show up to do your job and vote no, you've still represented them.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: mstudio
Date: June 21, 2019 10:03AM
Yeah, but that's not as dramatic, they will vote no anyway. If taxpayers really cared, there would be more of an uproar on the $100M spent on golf lessons by what's-his-name.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 21, 2019 10:07AM
Quote
mstudio
Not a big fan of this ploy, but I can see where it may have some merit at times. Mostly it’s a way of telling constituents that “We’ve done all we can”.

Mostly it's a way of saying, "We're losing, and so we're taking our toys and running away because I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU WHY ARE YOU SUCH A MEAN MEANIE?!?!"



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: Ted King
Date: June 21, 2019 10:09AM
Texas, 2003:

[www.myplainview.com]

Quote

Three Texas House Democrats returned to the Capitol on Tuesday, but more than 50 remained on the lam in Oklahoma, frustrating Republican efforts to push through a plan to redraw the state's congressional districts.

The rebellious Democrats holed up in Ardmore, Okla., where they blamed Republican U.S. House Majority Leader Tom DeLay of Texas for interfering with redistricting.

"We have a message for Tom DeLay: Don't mess with Texas," said House Democratic Legislative Caucus leader Jim Dunnam of Waco. "We did not choose the path that led us to Ardmore, Oklahoma. Tom DeLay chose that path."

The Democrats denied Republicans' charges that they were scared and ran.

"There is absolutely no dishonor in using the rules," said Rep. Pete Gallego, D-Alpine, who said blocking a House quorum is a legitimate tactic.

"The reality is we hope the legislative leadership will take note of our position and will work with us in resolving what brought us to today," Gallego said. "It is not an easy thing to get over 50 members of the Legislature to agree on much, much less to agree on a trip to our neighboring state of Oklahoma."

Republicans criticized the Democrats, saying they were acting childish.
- - - - - - -
On Monday, Craddick had ordered troopers from the Texas Department of Public Safety to find the missing lawmakers, arrest them and bring them back to Austin. Several DPS agents arrived at the Democrats' hotel in Ardmore on Monday night but were unable to arrest the lawmakers without a warrant issued by Oklahoma authorities _ which they lacked.

Instead, the troopers asked the legislators to board their aircraft and come home. The lawmakers said no.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: Acer
Date: June 21, 2019 10:17AM
The action itself is neither right or wrong. Depends on the context. When the GOP leaves to avoid a vote to address climate change in Iowa, then they are wrong to leave. When the Democrats leave to disrupt a sweeping anti-union bill in Wisconsin, then they are right to leave.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 21, 2019 10:33AM
Quote
Acer
The action itself is neither right or wrong. Depends on the context. When the GOP leaves to avoid a vote to address climate change in Iowa, then they are wrong to leave. When the Democrats leave to disrupt a sweeping anti-union bill in Wisconsin, then they are right to leave.

Are they? Why is that? Is it considered a legitimate legislative tactic under the law? Doesn't one's oath of office imply a commitment to the legislative and legal processes created and sustained through the operation of the legislature, the courts, etc.?

(Note that I'm not disagreeing with you - I am asking for more justification than fiat claim. If your argument is only valid for people who already agree with you politically - OK, but then it's not a good argument.)

This is a little bit like the 'civility' argument that continuously circulates in our political discourse. Is shutting down the statehouse a legitimate function of legislators? In times of intractable opposition, is withdrawal an appropriate response?

Certainly, when state and local legislatures across the south shuttered public schools after losing the Brown v. Board case and facing integration, they were not merely exercising one among a set of legitimate alternatives in governance? What makes this different, barring arguments about the legitimacy of the precipitating event?



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 21, 2019 11:21AM
Gov. Kate Brown is awesome. Like her Governor peer to the north, Jay Inslee, she's doing the hard work on climate change which is what the people of her state want.

These outlaw GOP state Senators are turkeys.

State police said they would opt for "polite conversation." So Oregonian of them.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: btfc
Date: June 21, 2019 03:32PM
" Armed Militias Pledge to Fight for Fugitive Oregon GOP Lawmakers ‘At Any Cost’ "

[www.thedailybeast.com]
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: max
Date: June 21, 2019 11:50PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Gov. Kate Brown is awesome. Like her Governor peer to the north, Jay Inslee, she's doing the hard work on climate change which is what the people of her state want.

These outlaw GOP state Senators are turkeys.

Quote
Acer
When the GOP leaves to avoid a vote to address climate change in Iowa, then they are wrong to leave. When the Democrats leave to disrupt a sweeping anti-union bill in Wisconsin, then they are right to leave.

Yes, yes, it is completely legit when we do it, there is this transformative holy transfiguration, where where any wrong when acted on by the holy letter D, magically becomes right, see ....




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means, it is an end.
One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution;
one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship."
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 22, 2019 10:47AM
Quote
Acer
The action itself is neither right or wrong. Depends on the context. When the GOP leaves to avoid a vote to address climate change in Iowa, then they are wrong to leave. When the Democrats leave to disrupt a sweeping anti-union bill in Wisconsin, then they are right to leave.

Here's where your example doesn't work:
The people of Wisconsin wanted labor protections in 2011 and the majority opposed Scott Walker and the Republican legislators' attempts to weaken protections for public workers. Most polls showed disapproval of Walker. So the legislators were right to push for what the people wanted even when it included some civil disobedience.

In Oregon, the majority want climate protections. Gov. Brown is right to push for it and she has the legal right to demand that legislators return. The Republican Senators can certainly make moves to object but ultimately they are out of step with what the majority of Oregonians want.

Is state government there for the people or for itself?
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: Acer
Date: June 22, 2019 11:46AM
My reasoning is consistent with your post, Lemon. The Democrats in WI were defending the will of the people. The Republicans in IA are defying the will of the people (and defying climate science, too). The tactic of refusing to attend the legislative session is neutral.

Quote

Yes, yes, it is completely legit when we do it, there is this transformative holy transfiguration, where where any wrong when acted on by the holy letter D, magically becomes right, see ....

It is legit when done for the right cause. Defining an action solely by the who is lazy thinking.

Deciding the purity of the cause is, of course, difficult in many cases, but that is a separate discussion from the point I am making.


(P.S., I'm speaking of actions that are political, civil disobedience sorts of things, not wars, drone strikes and concentration camps where the action itself is wrong.)
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 22, 2019 12:16PM
It’s weird to assume Republican voters in OR prefer anarchy (quorum prevention) to representation (legislative votes) but perhaps they do. All sorts of people believe in strange behavior.

I take narrow view of when walking out is “right,” like when the supermajority tries to do something illegal but it hasn’t been proven yet.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 22, 2019 12:45PM
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."

Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803–1882)
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: pdq
Date: June 22, 2019 12:54PM
One important difference if that when the Dems fled Wisconsin, they didn't have armed (right-wing) militias offering to "do whatever it takes" to protect them.

Did I mention one of the militia leaders was involved in the Malheur Nat'l wildlife refuge takeover/trashing?
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: Ted King
Date: June 22, 2019 03:12PM
This seems like an odd issue for Republicans to go so far as to throw sand into one of the central gears of our representative government. Why is climate change legislation more important to them than all the other issues they could have chosen to do this over? I don't get it.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 22, 2019 03:54PM
Quote
Ted King
Why is climate change legislation more important to them than all the other issues they could have chosen to do this over? I don't get it.

$$$$$

"There were loggers who opposed the cap-and-trade bill ..."

"Under the plan, greenhouse gas emissions would be limited and carbon-producing businesses would be required to purchase pollution credits."

"Those against the legislation argue that industry will likely pass the extra cost on to consumers, and the price of fuel would rise, putting a strain on industries like trucking and logging."
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: sekker
Date: June 22, 2019 07:05PM
Yep, burn up the planet rather than make a viable, long-term strategy.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 24, 2019 04:23PM
It's either okay to flee the state to avoid a quorum, or it's not okay. You can't ping pong a position around to suit the circumstances. I happen to think
Quote
deckeda
I think any constituent who thinks this emotional tug does anything more than waste taxpayer dollars on state troopers rounding them up is misinformed.

If you show up to do your job and vote no, you've still represented them.
that this is how I feel about it, too.

Besides, I'd be curious to know if the majority of people in Oregon are really all that happy to have fuel prices go up. Perhaps something can be done to address that fear, instead of just condemning everyone of being an arse because they don't like the idea? Rising fuel costs tend to make everything else rise, as well. It's a legitimate fear.



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Re: Meanwhile, in Oregon
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 25, 2019 07:24AM
I guess if you really wanted to guarantee that legislators show up to work, you'd write the constitution such that there is no quorum, and whoever is present to vote gets to decide.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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