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Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: July 11, 2019 10:10AM
Apparently this is Barr's secret plan for inevitable success at the SCotUS. I guess we'll see!



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: numbered
Date: July 11, 2019 10:42AM
Quote
rjmacs
Apparently this is Barr's secret plan for inevitable success at the SCotUS. I guess we'll see!

It is becoming increasingly clear that the future of our democracy rests on John Roberts' keyboard. And this is scary. The census is an Article 1 creature, there are 'shall' statutes, and there is an Article 1 statute about a process for making Article 2 decisions to change policy.

If an executive order can change anything on a whim...
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: deckeda
Date: July 11, 2019 10:57AM
Yeah you really don't need established laws so long as you have a President and a willing judiciary. Since today's Congress is complicit, the Supreme Court shouldn't have much of a problem with a certain pesky old document.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: GGD
Date: July 11, 2019 11:19AM
Will they add question about how many guns you own at the same time?
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: deckeda
Date: July 11, 2019 11:30AM
Quote
GGD
Will they add question about how many guns you own at the same time?

What? And invade people’s privacy for a God-given right? Never!
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: July 11, 2019 12:01PM
will census takers also be deputized to break down the door asking for 'illegals'?

Will they wear brown shirts?
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Sam3
Date: July 11, 2019 12:51PM
Trump can't by Executive Order force a new Census question, like the Citizenship question that he so desperately wants. That is CLEARLY Congress' responsibility:

Quote
constitutionus.com, Article 1, Section 2
The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct.

Notice in the following quote, the word is 'persons' not 'citizens'?

Quote
constitutionus.com, Article 14, Section 2
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.

The decennial census questionnaire is meant to be short, just to get the basics for apportionment:

Quote
usconstitution.net/consttop_cens.html
In 2010, the Census Bureau trimmed the questionnaire to just the basics: name, gender, race, and ethnicity or each person, and whether the dwelling was owned, rented, or "occupied without payment of rent." A more detailed list of questions, called the American Community Survey (ACS), is sent to selected households in addition to the shorter headcount forms and in non-decennial years to allow the Bureau to do statistical sampling. According to the Census Bureau, about 3 million households are selected to receive the ACS each year.

There already is a citizenship question asked, it's on the ACS (American Community Survey):

Quote
npr.org
Later, the census added the American Community Survey, conducted every year and sent to 3.5 million households. It began being fully implemented in 2005. It asks many of the same questions as the census long-form surveys from 1970 to 2000, including the citizenship question.

If I, a lowly peon Citizen can figure this out, how is it possible that high-priced lawyers and our Judicial branch can't find and figure it out? The more I think about it, this whole Citizenship issue should be a non-issue.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: deckeda
Date: July 11, 2019 12:59PM
Yes it should be a non-issue, but Trump forced the issue by taking it to the Supreme Court. Roberts acknowledged that Commerce has some discretion as to what exactly is asked on the Census, but that here it was "an abuse of discretion."

With an Executive Order, Trump will be openly defying both Congress and the Supreme Court

[www.politico.com]


... and many of ya'll thought impeachment hearings shoulda been started months ago ... it's just getting good, now.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 11, 2019 01:10PM
It can't hurt for Trump to get on Roberts' bad side.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: vision63
Date: July 11, 2019 01:29PM
It was crystal clear in 2016. Imagine if they win in 2020. This is nothing if they win again.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: July 11, 2019 01:45PM
Quote
Sam3
If I, a lowly peon Citizen can figure this out, how is it possible that high-priced lawyers and our Judicial branch can't find and figure it out? The more I think about it, this whole Citizenship issue should be a non-issue.

It's been "figured out" over and over by the courts (and by the Census Bureau's staffers), but that's hardly the point here.

The point here is Sweet Potato Saddam has staked his reputation on this question being on the form, and he's got the full support of the gerrymandering GOP behind him, most notably the Senate and thus a lot of new federal judicial appointees.

The key question here isn't about the Census or this president, it's about support in the SCotUS and the federal circuit courts for the legal theory of the unitary executive. Under this mode of thinking, the full authority of the executive branch, including all discretion and power, is at the direction of the president personally. He says do it, it gets done - and the Administrative Procedure Act can stick that in its pipe and smoke it, if it wants to.

Thomas, Alito, Roberts, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh all lean toward this conception of executive power, to varying degrees.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: July 11, 2019 02:24PM
I think the legal and EO issues are really separate from the "win" someone is seeking to throw a nice juicy steak to the hungry hordes at his feet. People can choose what to answer on the questionnaire, and as others have pointed out above, the Census did away with the long form. Besides, something like 10% of the population answers the full ACS census (I am forgetting this figure but that sticks with me), and data sampling is used to extrapolate to make up the remainder.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: July 11, 2019 02:49PM
Now ABC is reporting that he's changed his mind and instead of executive ordering a census question, he's ordering departments to find other ways of obtaining citizenship information.

We'll have to see, but for all the annoyance the man causes I think we are allowed to sneer at his having caved once again.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: deckeda
Date: July 11, 2019 03:03PM
Well, all hat, no cattle still beats an Exec Order that creates a crisis.

As for it merely being a dog whistle, no. That helps normalize him by portraying him as inherently harmless.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 11, 2019 03:36PM
Pres. Trump is expected to announce he is backing down from his effort to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census, and will instead instruct the Commerce Department to get the data through other means, sources tell
@ABC News.


Somebody finally told him ya can't do that, sorry.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: July 11, 2019 03:58PM
Is the Commerce Department going to go door-to-door with a clipboard?
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: July 11, 2019 04:18PM
back to the good old days for Dimwit Don?

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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Ted King
Date: July 11, 2019 04:44PM
Quote
rjmacs

The key question here isn't about the Census or this president, it's about support in the SCotUS and the federal circuit courts for the legal theory of the unitary executive. Under this mode of thinking, the full authority of the executive branch, including all discretion and power, is at the direction of the president personally. He says do it, it gets done - and the Administrative Procedure Act can stick that in its pipe and smoke it, if it wants to.

Thomas, Alito, Roberts, Gorsuch, and Kavanaugh all lean toward this conception of executive power, to varying degrees.

YES!!! There are probably even a few of the country club clan that actually believe in the theory of a unitary executive - for the moment. I strongly suspect that this passion - it's the principle of the thing! - for a unitary executive will peter out real quick when if a Democrat becomes president. Remember the Republican passion for term limits back in the 80's and 90's? That shriveled away - principle, what principle? - as soon as Republicans began to become majorities in the House and Senate on a regular basis. I have a strong hunch that will happen again with the unitary executive thing once if they ever lose the presidency.

But... for the time being it appears a lot of heavy weight conservative legal people are, as you said, breathing life into it because they have actual power to decide what the government does. When you take into account the comfort they also have with a severely crimped notion of corruption it's a synergistic disaster. Unless you are white and wealthy and greedy enough to think the rules don't apply to you.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 11, 2019 07:55PM
The problem with Trump and the theory of the unitary executive (well one problem, there are many) is that he thinks he's LIncoln but he's actually Nixon. He is not exercising special powers in a time of national emergency or crisis. The net effect is that he will reduce power for the next president because he will have abused it during his term (please only one). Trump inherited expanded powers from his predecessor, but surely he will diminish them for his successor.

Imagine how much damage he could have done if he'd appointed competent people who share his vision. As it stands he has incompetent people who may agree with his ideas but can't carry them out; or more principled people who will refuse to carry them out. That's why his power grabs, such as the one today regarding the census, keep failing.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: hal
Date: July 11, 2019 08:44PM
he WISHES he was actually Nixon... actually, he's Gumby.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: $tevie
Date: July 12, 2019 01:18AM
Time for people to stop trying to guess what Trump’s announcements will be. The guesses are usually wrong.



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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 12, 2019 08:52AM
Although a lot of damage has already been done in terms of creating fear about the census, there is some good news. Governors are aggressively fighting Trump's attempts to drum up distrust of the census:
[www.nytimes.com]
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: deckeda
Date: July 12, 2019 09:26AM
Quote
$tevie
Time for people to stop trying to guess what Trump’s announcements will be. The guesses are usually wrong.

To be fair, Trump did say he’d probably do it. At some point you have to report that, especially when you know he’s a fighter. I think where he fails is when he telegraphs it, giving opposition time to either talk him out of it or the public outcry to build until he pays attention.
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: July 12, 2019 09:29AM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
$tevie
Time for people to stop trying to guess what Trump’s announcements will be. The guesses are usually wrong.

To be fair, Trump did say he’d probably do it. At some point you have to report that, especially when you know he’s a fighter. I think where he fails is when he telegraphs it, giving opposition time to either talk him out of it or the public outcry to build until he pays attention.

Not only are the guesses usually wrong, but often Trump's announcements turn out to be wrong!!



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Here comes the Census Executive Order
Posted by: vision63
Date: July 12, 2019 02:00PM
Trump and his tribe does consistently what too many Democrats forget about. Plot a course, a pathway that can reasonably fulfill a desired outcome. The census is on a timetable, once he factored in court distractions, he dumped that course. But not the outcome in case an opportunity presents itself for him (them) to win.

Democrats will fight tooth and nail about 100 percent unimportant minutiae as if we're not undergoing a national (crisis) emergency.
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