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In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 13, 2020 12:02PM
My Great Grandfather and Grandfather were basically forced into a segregated military. My Father and older Brother were too basically (not segregated). They didn't make me go into the military. I graduated High School in 1977, one year before there was even the mandatory registration for Selective Service. No one has been forced to go into it since.

That's something.

I don't know if a mandatory 2 year service for all young people would encourage or hinder war. Would politicians feel obliged to use a massive armed forces? They say if you have a hammer, every problem you have will look like a nail.

I'm sure at some point the U.S. will stumble into some giant war in the future that'll require a draft.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: davester
Date: January 13, 2020 12:35PM
Quote
vision63
I don't know if a mandatory 2 year service for all young people would encourage or hinder war. Would politicians feel obliged to use a massive armed forces? They say if you have a hammer, every problem you have will look like a nail.

I'm sure at some point the U.S. will stumble into some giant war in the future that'll require a draft.

Having been on the cusp of being sent to 'Nam as cannon fodder, I have always thought of the draft as a return to slavery/indentured servitude and removal of your civil rights (and risking your life) in the service of potentially evil political ends. That said, I think that a mandatory 2-year service for young people where you had choices regarding how you could best serve society would be a good thing. Choices could be military, the peace corps, social services, WPA-like projects, etc.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: JoeH
Date: January 13, 2020 12:51PM
Actually only between the end of March 1975 when Ford issued Proclamation 4360 ending registration, and July 1980 when Carter signed Proclamation 4771 was registration suspended. Proclamation 4771 resumed registration July 21, 1980 and was retroactive. All males 18 to 26 born after January 1, 1960 were required to register.

The only males who were never required to register were those born between March 29, 1957 and December 31, 1959. So if your birth fell into that 33 month period, you might think there had never been mandatory registration. But except for that short period, it has been mandatory for over 70+ years.

As for mandatory service, I recall reading an opinion piece about 40 years ago, possibly on the 5th anniversary of Nixon ending the draft. I do wish I could recall who wrote it, but believe it was one of the conservative pundits of the time. He was of two minds about the end of the draft and the move to an all volunteer military. He saw it as a positive that only those who wanted to be in the military were serving, but against that he saw a loss in no longer bringing together people of different views on military service and use of that might. In addition he saw this as not spreading awareness of the sacifices related to serving in the military to all families.

From his viewpoint he may have not realized that "wanting to serve" might not be entirely voluntary due to such things as economic conditions for the "volunteers". But I see some truth on the negatives he saw. When families and individuals from al walks of life are affected, justifying use of military force might be harder for the politicians.

As for the hammer analogy, well the US Armed Forces have been and still are that "hammer".
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: January 13, 2020 01:01PM
I am part of that 'keyhole' group and was never required to register for Selective Service. And barring some sort of "Old Man's War" technology, I never will Back when they restarted the registration, we were still in the Cold War and the threat of MAD was still on the table. I was interviewed by the local TV station, and said "I would rather die for my family and friends than WITH my family and friends". I still feel that way.

I am NOT willing to die as a mercenary being sold to the Saudi Arabians.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: RgrF
Date: January 13, 2020 01:04PM
Quote
davester
Quote
vision63
I don't know if a mandatory 2 year service for all young people would encourage or hinder war. Would politicians feel obliged to use a massive armed forces? They say if you have a hammer, every problem you have will look like a nail.

I'm sure at some point the U.S. will stumble into some giant war in the future that'll require a draft.

Having been on the cusp of being sent to 'Nam as cannon fodder, I have always thought of the draft as a return to slavery/indentured servitude and removal of your civil rights (and risking your life) in the service of potentially evil political ends. That said, I think that a mandatory 2-year service for young people where you had choices regarding how you could best serve society would be a good thing. Choices could be military, the peace corps, social services, WPA-like projects, etc.

For the second time in as many weeks Dave and I are in complete agreement. Pretty sure this has never happened before, must be something in the MR water supply.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: GGD
Date: January 13, 2020 01:28PM
Quote
vision63
My Great Grandfather and Grandfather were basically forced into a segregated military. My Father and older Brother were too basically (not segregated). They didn't make me go into the military. I graduated High School in 1977, one year before there was even the mandatory registration for Selective Service. No one has been forced to go into it since.

You were in that very narrow window around then when registration wasn't required.

Quote

On 29 March 1975, 38th President Gerald R. Ford, whose own son, Steven Ford, had earlier failed to register for the draft as required,[25] signed Proclamation 4360 (Terminating Registration Procedures Under Military Selective Service Act), eliminating the registration requirement for all 18- to 25-year-old male citizens.[26]

Quote

On 2 July 1980, 39th President Jimmy Carter signed Proclamation 4771 (Registration Under the Military Selective Service Act) in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the previous year of 1979,[27] retroactively re-establishing the Selective Service registration requirement for all 18- to 26-year-old male citizens born on or after 1 January 1960.[28] As a result, only men born between 29 March 1957, and 31 December 1959, were completely exempt from Selective Service registration.[29]

[en.wikipedia.org]
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 13, 2020 01:46PM
Quote
RgrF
Quote
davester
Quote
vision63
I don't know if a mandatory 2 year service for all young people would encourage or hinder war. Would politicians feel obliged to use a massive armed forces? They say if you have a hammer, every problem you have will look like a nail.

I'm sure at some point the U.S. will stumble into some giant war in the future that'll require a draft.

Having been on the cusp of being sent to 'Nam as cannon fodder, I have always thought of the draft as a return to slavery/indentured servitude and removal of your civil rights (and risking your life) in the service of potentially evil political ends. That said, I think that a mandatory 2-year service for young people where you had choices regarding how you could best serve society would be a good thing. Choices could be military, the peace corps, social services, WPA-like projects, etc.

For the second time in as many weeks Dave and I are in complete agreement. Pretty sure this has never happened before, must be something in the MR water supply.

Then how would this not be like using slaves/indentured servants to do work that the general public could perform? Would there be any jobs left? Does this change the entire concept of conscription by rendering it worthy? Suppose there "is" a war, can you use them to fight it?
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: January 13, 2020 02:10PM
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: January 13, 2020 02:17PM
Quote
vision63
Then how would this not be like using slaves/indentured servants to do work that the general public could perform? Would there be any jobs left? Does this change the entire concept of conscription by rendering it worthy? Suppose there "is" a war, can you use them to fight it?

It's all connected to the knotty conundrum of "the common good" that includes required minimum public education, driver's licensing, mandatory vaccinations, property and income taxes, and on and on.

What powers and rights should a society as a collective whole have over the individual members of that society for the purposes of protecting and improving that society?
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: davester
Date: January 13, 2020 02:18PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
RgrF
Quote
davester
Quote
vision63
I don't know if a mandatory 2 year service for all young people would encourage or hinder war. Would politicians feel obliged to use a massive armed forces? They say if you have a hammer, every problem you have will look like a nail.

I'm sure at some point the U.S. will stumble into some giant war in the future that'll require a draft.

Having been on the cusp of being sent to 'Nam as cannon fodder, I have always thought of the draft as a return to slavery/indentured servitude and removal of your civil rights (and risking your life) in the service of potentially evil political ends. That said, I think that a mandatory 2-year service for young people where you had choices regarding how you could best serve society would be a good thing. Choices could be military, the peace corps, social services, WPA-like projects, etc.

For the second time in as many weeks Dave and I are in complete agreement. Pretty sure this has never happened before, must be something in the MR water supply.

Then how would this not be like using slaves/indentured servants to do work that the general public could perform? Would there be any jobs left? Does this change the entire concept of conscription by rendering it worthy? Suppose there "is" a war, can you use them to fight it?

Good questions. Many countries have mandatory national service, some military, some multi-option. I think of it more like having mandatory education, which we already have in this country. I don't think there's any problem with having mandatory requirements that serve the purposes of the society (such as paying taxes). Having multiple service options is way different than drafting people into combat where they have a high chance of coming home in a box. I don't think we've ever had a "just" war where there was any difficulty getting volunteers to man the armed forces. It's the unjustifiable political wars for nefarious purposes where we've had to institute a draft.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: Acer
Date: January 13, 2020 02:29PM
Quote
davester
I don't think we've ever had a "just" war where there was any difficulty getting volunteers to man the armed forces. It's the unjustifiable political wars for nefarious purposes where we've had to institute a draft.

WWII had a draft, and was probably the closest to a just war that we've had. Though, in a way, at least in Europe, WWII was the clean-up to the nefarious political mess that started WWI.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: samintx
Date: January 13, 2020 02:41PM
CCC and WPA would not work now days I don’t think. We are diff animals than back when I grew up in the 30s 40s.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: bfd
Date: January 13, 2020 02:43PM
Yep, kids are too lazy and self-absorbed these days. LOL
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 13, 2020 02:50PM
Quote
Acer
Quote
davester
I don't think we've ever had a "just" war where there was any difficulty getting volunteers to man the armed forces. It's the unjustifiable political wars for nefarious purposes where we've had to institute a draft.

WWII had a draft, and was probably the closest to a just war that we've had. Though, in a way, at least in Europe, WWII was the clean-up to the nefarious political mess that started WWI.

There are ample people that would sign up to fight any war. Most of the people I know who volunteer do it as a career decision (or the consequence of indecision). Fighting wars in multiple theaters can require a lot of people power.

I do consider it a privilege that I've enjoyed having the freedom to choose. I'm grateful to those that do because anything can happen that can place them in immediate peril.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 13, 2020 02:53PM
Quote
samintx
CCC and WPA would not work now days I don’t think. We are diff animals than back when I grew up in the 30s 40s.

We have a CCC (California Conservation Corps) that works really well though. [ccc.ca.gov] Maybe it's a matter of them giving it a whirl.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 13, 2020 03:22PM
Quote
GGD
Quote
vision63
My Great Grandfather and Grandfather were basically forced into a segregated military. My Father and older Brother were too basically (not segregated). They didn't make me go into the military. I graduated High School in 1977, one year before there was even the mandatory registration for Selective Service. No one has been forced to go into it since.

You were in that very narrow window around then when registration wasn't required.

Quote

On 29 March 1975, 38th President Gerald R. Ford, whose own son, Steven Ford, had earlier failed to register for the draft as required,[25] signed Proclamation 4360 (Terminating Registration Procedures Under Military Selective Service Act), eliminating the registration requirement for all 18- to 25-year-old male citizens.[26]

Quote

On 2 July 1980, 39th President Jimmy Carter signed Proclamation 4771 (Registration Under the Military Selective Service Act) in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the previous year of 1979,[27] retroactively re-establishing the Selective Service registration requirement for all 18- to 26-year-old male citizens born on or after 1 January 1960.[28] As a result, only men born between 29 March 1957, and 31 December 1959, were completely exempt from Selective Service registration.[29]

[en.wikipedia.org]

I remember going to the post office in college to check if I had to. My roommate did but I didn't have to. I told him, if the Martians invade, you'll be fighting them while I'm running.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 13, 2020 03:26PM
Quote
JoeH
Actually only between the end of March 1975 when Ford issued Proclamation 4360 ending registration, and July 1980 when Carter signed Proclamation 4771 was registration suspended. Proclamation 4771 resumed registration July 21, 1980 and was retroactive. All males 18 to 26 born after January 1, 1960 were required to register.

The only males who were never required to register were those born between March 29, 1957 and December 31, 1959. So if your birth fell into that 33 month period, you might think there had never been mandatory registration. But except for that short period, it has been mandatory for over 70+ years.

As for mandatory service, I recall reading an opinion piece about 40 years ago, possibly on the 5th anniversary of Nixon ending the draft. I do wish I could recall who wrote it, but believe it was one of the conservative pundits of the time. He was of two minds about the end of the draft and the move to an all volunteer military. He saw it as a positive that only those who wanted to be in the military were serving, but against that he saw a loss in no longer bringing together people of different views on military service and use of that might. In addition he saw this as not spreading awareness of the sacifices related to serving in the military to all families.

From his viewpoint he may have not realized that "wanting to serve" might not be entirely voluntary due to such things as economic conditions for the "volunteers". But I see some truth on the negatives he saw. When families and individuals from al walks of life are affected, justifying use of military force might be harder for the politicians.

As for the hammer analogy, well the US Armed Forces have been and still are that "hammer".

I've been hunting for that piece to no avail. I visit farms in the Salinas Valley a lot and think it would be cool if Americans could work at least one or two weeks a year on one of them.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 13, 2020 04:14PM
The military does not want a draft. They want individuals who qualify and want to join. The service is no longer "here's your rifle, shoot thataway". It requires some basic ability and thinking. Much of the equipment being used today is highly complicated and not something for an imbecile to use.

Add in that a draft guarantees boots who are grossly out of shape, unmotivated, and general malcontents - it just isn't a good idea.

As far as a 2-year hitch goes, it isn't long enough to be worth the investment. Even the Basic Infantry (MOS 11B) requires 10 weeks of Basic and 12-14 weeks of further training for that MOS. So 1/4th of a two-year enlistment would just be basic training at a cost of about $75K. Other MOS's can take far longer training at a much higher cost. The Cryptologic Linguist (98G) is 2.5 years from enlistment to graduation.

Finally, as many a grunt discovered just because your enlistment ends it does not mean you can leave. The military can keep you for as long as it needs your services.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: January 13, 2020 05:40PM
Quote
Ombligo
The military does not want a draft. They want individuals who qualify and want to join. The service is no longer "here's your rifle, shoot thataway". It requires some basic ability and thinking. Much of the equipment being used today is highly complicated and not something for an imbecile to use.

Add in that a draft guarantees boots who are grossly out of shape, unmotivated, and general malcontents - it just isn't a good idea.

Your other points are dead on, but this one is wrong.

It assumes incorrectly that the pool of volunteers is smarter and healthier than the overall segment of the population which would be draft-eligible.

Actually an argument could be made that the choice to enlist is often the direct consequence of:
- misunderstanding of what military life is actually like
- failure to succeed in the civilian workplace
- being the easiest way to get away from the restrictions of home/hometown

None of which guarantee either higher intelligence or superior physical condition.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 13, 2020 07:35PM
Yup, a Golden Age.



...or... maybe a Gilded Age.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: January 13, 2020 08:23PM
Make state and junior college free and the armed forces will lose a quarter (third?) of enlistments.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 13, 2020 09:37PM
Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
Make state and junior college free and the armed forces will lose a quarter (third?) of enlistments.

Junior College is free right now. [www.cnn.com]

Half of California's CC students attended free way before that

You can get free tuition to Cal State and UC schools if you fall under a certain financial criteria. I didn't pay tuition to go to Chico State. I qualified for financial aid. MY financial aid covered other expenses. Basic Grant (Pell), SEOG grant, California State Scholarship and other grants and scholarships.

Here's what the people that scream about FREE COLLEGE don't get. Free tuition doesn't equal a free college education.

Free tuition only covers tuition. It doesn't pay for where you live, your utilities, your books, your clothing, your food, your transportation or anything else. Chico State today costs about $8000 (tuition/fees).



Tuition at a California Community College was about $1200. You can make that working at McDonalds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/2020 09:39PM by vision63.
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: Rolando
Date: January 13, 2020 10:36PM
We are in two nearly 20 year long wars. Why, because poor kids are in danger.

That never happened during the draft.



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater
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Re: In some ways this is a Golden Age
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: January 16, 2020 06:12AM
Quote
Ombligo
The military does not want a draft. They want individuals who qualify and want to join. The service is no longer "here's your rifle, shoot thataway". It requires some basic ability and thinking. Much of the equipment being used today is highly complicated and not something for an imbecile to use.

Add in that a draft guarantees boots who are grossly out of shape, unmotivated, and general malcontents - it just isn't a good idea.

As far as a 2-year hitch goes, it isn't long enough to be worth the investment. Even the Basic Infantry (MOS 11B) requires 10 weeks of Basic and 12-14 weeks of further training for that MOS. So 1/4th of a two-year enlistment would just be basic training at a cost of about $75K. Other MOS's can take far longer training at a much higher cost. The Cryptologic Linguist (98G) is 2.5 years from enlistment to graduation.

Finally, as many a grunt discovered just because your enlistment ends it does not mean you can leave. The military can keep you for as long as it needs your services.

Unless things have changed very recently the Army is still offering 2-year active duty for certain MOS, with a hefty Guard/Reserve requirement of course.

Still, that gets one 80% GI Bill benefits.
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