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chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 26, 2020 12:12PM
But that's not stopping some doctors from prescribing it for their families, at "someone's" idiotic suggestion recently.

from ars:

Doctors hoard unproven COVID-19 meds by writing prescriptions for selves, families

On the other hand, this could be a form of Darwinism.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: space-time
Date: March 26, 2020 12:18PM
chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19

No, they ARE known to fight Covid-19. The president said so.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: March 26, 2020 12:18PM
.....an elderly couple.....I think in Arizona....mistakenly took chloroquine phosphate, used in fish tanks, thinking it was the same thing.....unfortunately, her husband died and she nearly died from 'self-medication'.......


.....also news mentioned that I think hydroxychloroquine is used by lupus patients but because people are hoarding it now for treatment of coronavirus, there is a shortage of it for lupus patients.....



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: rz
Date: March 26, 2020 12:21PM
I think hydroxychloroquine is the generic form of the medication my wife takes for her RA. Thankfully she just got a 90 day supply last week. It'll suck for her if she's unable to get it refilled because a bunch of people are hoarding it because of our So Called Ruler of the US (SCROTUS).
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: pdq
Date: March 26, 2020 12:48PM
Quote
rz
...because of our So Called Ruler of the US (SCROTUS).

smiley-laughing001

I'll have to remember that one.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 26, 2020 01:24PM
And for a second I naively thought this news wouldn't make sense. But you all understand.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: PeterB
Date: March 26, 2020 01:35PM
I posted about this in another thread ... here's a publication: [www.sciencedirect.com]

and here's another: [subject.med.wanfangdata.com.cn]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: March 26, 2020 01:41PM
Quote
PeterB
I posted about this in another thread ... here's a publication: [www.sciencedirect.com]

and here's another: [subject.med.wanfangdata.com.cn]

Right. That means that all of the 'conclusions' people have come to about hydroxychloraquine's effectiveness against Covid-19 is based on two studies comprising SIXTY-SIX PEOPLE.

Total. Without true randomization. Without real controls.

This disease has infected many more than the current reported 510,000 and nearly 23,000 have died.

It is deeply irresponsible to offer people tangible hope, repeatedly, of a cure or effective treatment based on two tiny studies.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: March 26, 2020 01:52PM
Like rz’s wife, my mom takes it for her lupus. Drugstore is being proactive and denying these unnecessary prescriptions so there’ll be enough for people like my mom down the line.....
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: PeterB
Date: March 26, 2020 02:22PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
PeterB
I posted about this in another thread ... here's a publication: [www.sciencedirect.com]

and here's another: [subject.med.wanfangdata.com.cn]

Right. That means that all of the 'conclusions' people have come to about hydroxychloraquine's effectiveness against Covid-19 is based on two studies comprising SIXTY-SIX PEOPLE.

Total. Without true randomization. Without real controls.

This disease has infected many more than the current reported 510,000 and nearly 23,000 have died.

It is deeply irresponsible to offer people tangible hope, repeatedly, of a cure or effective treatment based on two tiny studies.

Without making any value judgments about what you're saying, I would point out that the likelihood of being able to do true randomization and full controls is limited by the time factor of trying to save lives and the ethical consideration of using these patients as test subjects. As the authors of the first study point out: "For ethical reasons and because our first results are so significant and evident we decide to share our findings with the medical community, given the urgent need for an effective drug against SARS-CoV-2 in the current pandemic context." ... I think it's up to the rest of the medical community to figure out if these results hold up, and under what context(s).




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: March 26, 2020 02:37PM
Quote
PeterB
Without making any value judgments about what you're saying, I would point out that the likelihood of being able to do true randomization and full controls is limited by the time factor of trying to save lives and the ethical consideration of using these patients as test subjects. As the authors of the first study point out: "For ethical reasons and because our first results are so significant and evident we decide to share our findings with the medical community, given the urgent need for an effective drug against SARS-CoV-2 in the current pandemic context." ... I think it's up to the rest of the medical community to figure out if these results hold up, and under what context(s).

Every public health official I've seen address this says it's not known whether or not hydroxychloraquine is effective, that clinical trials are needed first, but that they are hopeful for this and other potential treatments.

Any counter-examples?

Edit: I agree with you that sometimes expediting treatments to the public before a full clinical trial is complete is done, when the clinical evidence is overwhelming.

However, saying that giving individual doctors discretion to test an drug that has not been clinically evaluated on patients is an effective way to save lives is simply a hopeful aspiration, not a statement supported by facts.

Edit 2: You cannot substitute an individual practicing physician's clinical judgment for the results of a drug trial, whether in regard to safety or efficacy. No doctor is that good. Also, while all of this hysteria around hydroxychloraquine abounds, demand for the drug has shot through the roof and pharmacies are rationing their supplies. This means lots of people with rheumatoid arthritis and other conditions(\ for which hydroxychloraquine IS safe and effective are having trouble getting their medication. That means pain and immobility, and a lot of it, for a lot of people.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2020 02:47PM by rjmacs.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: bfd
Date: March 26, 2020 02:40PM
Risk/Reward ratio definitely in play here. Best left to medical professionals, not would-be physicians and politicians.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: March 26, 2020 03:16PM
Quote
NewtonMP2100
.....an elderly couple.....I think in Arizona....mistakenly took chloroquine phosphate, used in fish tanks, thinking it was the same thing.....unfortunately, her husband died and she nearly died from 'self-medication'.......

Well, it prevented her husband from getting the virus.

Or at least dying from the virus.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: Ammo
Date: March 26, 2020 03:30PM
Since many people have been taking hydroxychloroquine for arthritis for some time, I’ll bet someone is monitoring the death rate of that cohort.



Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. —Wendy Mass

Until you make your unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. - Carl Jung
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: Ammo
Date: March 26, 2020 03:32PM
Quote
Ammo
Since many people have been taking hydroxychloroquine for arthritis for some time, I’ll bet someone is monitoring the Covid-19 death rate of that cohort.



Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. —Wendy Mass

Until you make your unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. - Carl Jung
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: PeterB
Date: March 26, 2020 04:20PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
PeterB
Without making any value judgments about what you're saying, I would point out that the likelihood of being able to do true randomization and full controls is limited by the time factor of trying to save lives and the ethical consideration of using these patients as test subjects. As the authors of the first study point out: "For ethical reasons and because our first results are so significant and evident we decide to share our findings with the medical community, given the urgent need for an effective drug against SARS-CoV-2 in the current pandemic context." ... I think it's up to the rest of the medical community to figure out if these results hold up, and under what context(s).

Every public health official I've seen address this says it's not known whether or not hydroxychloraquine is effective, that clinical trials are needed first, but that they are hopeful for this and other potential treatments.

Any counter-examples?

Edit: I agree with you that sometimes expediting treatments to the public before a full clinical trial is complete is done, when the clinical evidence is overwhelming.

However, saying that giving individual doctors discretion to test an drug that has not been clinically evaluated on patients is an effective way to save lives is simply a hopeful aspiration, not a statement supported by facts.

Edit 2: You cannot substitute an individual practicing physician's clinical judgment for the results of a drug trial, whether in regard to safety or efficacy. No doctor is that good. Also, while all of this hysteria around hydroxychloraquine abounds, demand for the drug has shot through the roof and pharmacies are rationing their supplies. This means lots of people with rheumatoid arthritis and other conditions(\ for which hydroxychloraquine IS safe and effective are having trouble getting their medication. That means pain and immobility, and a lot of it, for a lot of people.

Again, without going into detail and addressing every single point you're making (I have other things to do!) ... I agree with much of what you've said, but again we are having to think about the situation that currently exists, rather than an ideal world. I totally agree that the (real) issue is that a big orange blowhard is saying things that should not be getting said, and that is leading to real problems including the death of a couple who self-medicated with the drug, apparently based on what they'd heard about it.

Quote
bfd
Risk/Reward ratio definitely in play here. Best left to medical professionals, not would-be physicians and politicians.

Bingo. I trust doctors to make clinical decisions and scientists to find answers.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2020 04:22PM by PeterB.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: March 26, 2020 04:30PM
Quote
Ammo
Since many people have been taking hydroxychloroquine for arthritis for some time, I’ll bet someone is monitoring the death rate of that cohort.

You may be surprised to learn that people with different diseases usually respond differently to the same medications.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 26, 2020 05:05PM
Quote
PeterB
... I totally agree that the (real) issue is that a big orange blowhard is saying things that should not be getting said, and that is leading to real problems including the death of a couple who self-medicated with the drug, apparently based on what they'd heard about it. ...

Given that our president is literally linked to this occurrence and yet this thread has quietly been implied as "controversial" by it's movement into the political side, it's only fair to conclude that whomever moved it disagrees that the president shouldn't be criticized and remains beyond reproach.

Similarly, Trump has advocated for everyone's participation in Easter church services despite the statistical knowledge some people will actually die as a result.

I suppose that circumstance would also be considered upsetting to those who don't want it typed out.

I wish everyone good health but at some point they really should consider stopping shooting messengers around here.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: PeterB
Date: March 26, 2020 05:38PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
PeterB
... I totally agree that the (real) issue is that a big orange blowhard is saying things that should not be getting said, and that is leading to real problems including the death of a couple who self-medicated with the drug, apparently based on what they'd heard about it. ...

Given that our president is literally linked to this occurrence and yet this thread has quietly been implied as "controversial" by it's movement into the political side, it's only fair to conclude that whomever moved it disagrees that the president shouldn't be criticized and remains beyond reproach.

Similarly, Trump has advocated for everyone's participation in Easter church services despite the statistical knowledge some people will actually die as a result.

I suppose that circumstance would also be considered upsetting to those who don't want it typed out.

I wish everyone good health but at some point they really should consider stopping shooting messengers around here.

I agree (about your last comment). Words can kill, just as not saying things can kill too. This being said, the French group who published the study I linked to, I think they did a very good job of explaining that the circumstances required that they get their info out as quickly as possible.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 26, 2020 06:13PM
There’s a vast chasm of credibility between some initial positive results in a non random tiny sample and a blanket statement made by an elected official. Why you’d recognize one without the other is curious.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: PeterB
Date: March 26, 2020 06:48PM
Quote
deckeda
There’s a vast chasm of credibility between some initial positive results in a non random tiny sample and a blanket statement made by an elected official. Why you’d recognize one without the other is curious.

I don't know what the heck you're talking about, but what's coming across is that you're looking to pick a fight -- which is silly, because we're essentially on the same side here... I do very much recognize the chasm to which you're referring...




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 26, 2020 07:56PM
Nah, no fight here. Just thought the topic sidetrack was irrelevant.
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Re: chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are not known to fight Covid-19
Posted by: Janit
Date: March 27, 2020 05:07PM
When we are through this I think we are going to need a new category akin to "war crimes," like maybe "pandemic crimes," involving depraved indifference to human lives on a grand scale.
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