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Florida beaches are open
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 18, 2020 12:40PM
Newt posted this on the other side, so moving the COVID discussion here:

[forums.macresource.com]

Jacksonville - good thing they have a Mayo Clinic in their backyard, they may need all the beds they can get...
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: April 18, 2020 01:07PM
Let freedumb ring!
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: steve...
Date: April 18, 2020 01:16PM
Will we see video of Laura Ingraham and the Fox bunch out enjoying the crowds?




Northern California Coast
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 18, 2020 01:32PM
I dunno. IF the beach is not crowded, one can maintain social distance there as much as the local nature reserve. If it turns into a Spring Break mosh-pit, then you're toast.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 18, 2020 01:37PM
Some beaches here are also open for exercising. People have to maintain spacing. We’ll see how this goes as the weather warms.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 18, 2020 01:41PM
They're keeping the lifeguards employed.

...With additional duties, keeping people apart and stopping them from lying on the beach. No sunbathing allowed.



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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 18, 2020 01:56PM
I could see where perhaps rationing access might work. Hell, we’ve done it for BREAD before.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: sekker
Date: April 18, 2020 02:06PM
Quote
Acer
I dunno. IF the beach is not crowded, one can maintain social distance there as much as the local nature reserve. If it turns into a Spring Break mosh-pit, then you're toast.

See CNN videos and interviews of the Jacksonville beaches, and I think you will have your answers whether the public was following social distancing on the beach...
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: April 18, 2020 02:08PM
The North Florida beaches are generally uncrowded. I used to enjoy them for just that reason. If you got away from the end of Beach Blvd in Jacksonville and Daytona, it wasn't unusual to have hundreds of yards between people. Go up past Fernandina and you may not even see another person.

If the beaches in Ft. Lauderdale/Miami, Clearwater, or the panhandle open - then there will be a mess.

Still - it was a stupid decision made by a governor intent on imitating an endoscope for Trump



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2020 02:12PM by Ombligo.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 18, 2020 02:10PM
Why no sunbathing?



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: April 18, 2020 02:13PM


Florida-Liberate the golf courses!
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 18, 2020 02:15PM
Quote
Steve G.


Florida-Liberate the golf courses!

He’s got big hands, amongst other things.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: April 18, 2020 02:26PM

a Republican Golfing Legend
same weight class
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: bfd
Date: April 18, 2020 02:28PM
Quote
Speedy
Why no sunbathing?

If it's like around here before all the beaches went dark, the idea is to keep moving. Once people start putting down towels, then next come the ez-ups and then it's not too long for all the crowds … very soon it's right back to being one big beach party.

… most of us probably wish they'd open up local trails, beaches, and parks for individuals and families around here pretty soon!
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 18, 2020 02:57PM
Quote
bfd
… most of us probably wish they'd open up local trails, beaches, and parks for individuals and families around here pretty soon!

Same thing, right? You still need a way to moderate usage. Otherwise what’s to keep *everyone* from thinking it’s OK “for me” to participate?
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: April 18, 2020 03:08PM

Mar-a-Fatso!
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: April 18, 2020 03:24PM
....well....son......of a.......beach......



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: bfd
Date: April 18, 2020 05:19PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
bfd
… most of us probably wish they'd open up local trails, beaches, and parks for individuals and families around here pretty soon!

Same thing, right? You still need a way to moderate usage. Otherwise what’s to keep *everyone* from thinking it’s OK “for me” to participate?

Well, that's the problem, isn't it … who will moderate the crowds? We've proven already that individual moderation is a pipe dream. So while we all may wish for things to just "go back to normal", the rub is, that it won't be that way for a long time, and there will have to be strict guidelines - and we know how a group of people will never follow the "rules"… because they "don't have to/rules aren't for me/nobody's gonna tell me what to do"…
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 18, 2020 05:53PM
Quote
sekker
Quote
Acer
I dunno. IF the beach is not crowded, one can maintain social distance there as much as the local nature reserve. If it turns into a Spring Break mosh-pit, then you're toast.

See CNN videos and interviews of the Jacksonville beaches, and I think you will have your answers whether the public was following social distancing on the beach...

Video is worth a thousand words: [www.youtube.com]

... I wouldn't be surprised if this is the basis for the second wave that everyone is talking about.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 18, 2020 07:36PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
sekker
Quote
Acer
I dunno. IF the beach is not crowded, one can maintain social distance there as much as the local nature reserve. If it turns into a Spring Break mosh-pit, then you're toast.

See CNN videos and interviews of the Jacksonville beaches, and I think you will have your answers whether the public was following social distancing on the beach...

Video is worth a thousand words: [www.youtube.com]

... I wouldn't be surprised if this is the basis for the second wave that everyone is talking about.

Florida added 1,413 new COVID-19 cases just over the last 24 hours.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: April 18, 2020 07:40PM
Beaches may be open but schools will remain closed.

The state announced tonight that schools will stay closed for the remainder of the academic year. For being subtropical this place is truly bipolar



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 18, 2020 08:18PM
Quote
Ombligo
Beaches may be open but schools will remain closed.

The state announced tonight that schools will stay closed for the remainder of the academic year. For being subtropical this place is truly bipolar

Will teachers be paid properly?
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 18, 2020 09:33PM
Quote
vision63
Will teachers be paid properly?

Why should they suddenly start paying them properly now?



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 18, 2020 10:04PM
Quote
Ombligo
Beaches may be open but schools will remain closed.

The state announced tonight that schools will stay closed for the remainder of the academic year. For being subtropical this place is truly bipolar

It's normal to compartmentalize threat, as a way of "controlling" risk, even if pretending. When they closed schools here in March, some people offered to watch other people's kids.

They just don't put two-and-two together.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: vision63
Date: April 18, 2020 10:40PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
vision63
Will teachers be paid properly?

Why should they suddenly start paying them properly now?

At least pay what the deal is.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 18, 2020 10:41PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
vision63
Will teachers be paid properly?

Why should they suddenly start paying them properly now?

smiley-laughing001




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Sam3
Date: April 19, 2020 10:48AM
Watching the CNN video, it looked like there was social distancing going on. It sure seemed that that most people were 6 feet apart from each other. The only people close to each other looked like families. Remember, some of the shots were using a long lens shooting far down the beach, this has a habit of compressing items, making them seem close together.

I've seen people closer together in the grocery stores and at Costco.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Acer
Date: April 19, 2020 11:09AM
Beaches are big. It has always seemed to me that closing beaches to all activity was eliminating a fairly easy place to exercise while maintaining distance. Still needs guidelines, especially near populated areas.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Rolando
Date: April 19, 2020 11:14AM
smiley-laughing001
Quote
Lux Interior
Let freedumb ring!
smiley-laughing001



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: April 19, 2020 12:29PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
Speedy
Quote
vision63
Will teachers be paid properly?

Why should they suddenly start paying them properly now?

At least pay what the deal is.

Distance learning will continue, they are just not opening the schools as was floated a wee or so ago. So teachers will continue working and being paid. In my county, school employees get checks until June 30, then we do not get another until August 15 (teachers) or August 30 (support).



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 19, 2020 01:05PM
Quote
Sam3
Watching the CNN video, it looked like there was social distancing going on. It sure seemed that that most people were 6 feet apart from each other. The only people close to each other looked like families. Remember, some of the shots were using a long lens shooting far down the beach, this has a habit of compressing items, making them seem close together.

I've seen people closer together in the grocery stores and at Costco.

True, though one of the folks (the young guy), when asked, explicitly stated that they didn't think social distancing was going on ... and watching the video, I'd tend to agree. Also keeping in mind that this virus could be hanging in the air for hours after an infected person exhales it.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 19, 2020 01:42PM
Quote
PeterB
Also keeping in mind that this virus could be hanging in the air for hours after an infected person exhales it.

smiley-excited001

Care to revise that statement?

It presently has not one iota of truth it it.

I'm sure that you meant to write something truthful and pithy, rather than paranoid and nonsensical.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2020 01:46PM by Sarcany.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 19, 2020 02:15PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
PeterB
Also keeping in mind that this virus could be hanging in the air for hours after an infected person exhales it.

smiley-excited001

Care to revise that statement?

It presently has not one iota of truth it it.

I'm sure that you meant to write something truthful and pithy, rather than paranoid and nonsensical.

[www.nejm.org]
[link.springer.com]
[www.tandfonline.com]
[wwwnc.cdc.gov]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 19, 2020 03:05PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
PeterB
Also keeping in mind that this virus could be hanging in the air for hours after an infected person exhales it.

smiley-excited001

Care to revise that statement?

It presently has not one iota of truth it it.

I'm sure that you meant to write something truthful and pithy, rather than paranoid and nonsensical.

INSERT COMPLETELY OUT-OF-CONTEXT CITATIONS HERE

I thought better of you.

The subject was walking on the beach.

There is zero evidence that walking outdoors will subject you to COVID-19 idling on the breeze for hours after some random person exhaled on the same path.

You are fear-mongering.



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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 19, 2020 03:49PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
PeterB
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
PeterB
Also keeping in mind that this virus could be hanging in the air for hours after an infected person exhales it.

smiley-excited001

Care to revise that statement?

It presently has not one iota of truth it it.

I'm sure that you meant to write something truthful and pithy, rather than paranoid and nonsensical.

INSERT COMPLETELY OUT-OF-CONTEXT CITATIONS HERE

I thought better of you.

The subject was walking on the beach.

There is zero evidence that walking outdoors will subject you to COVID-19 idling on the breeze for hours after some random person exhaled on the same path.

You are fear-mongering.

With respect, you are not being fair. All four of the citations I provided, as well as the citations THEY cite, are contextually relevant.

Note that I did NOT say that it was for certain -- nobody knows for sure that this could happen, but there is enough factual, pertinent data to suggest that it is a possibility and therefore should be a concern. (One of the citations I provided, itself cites a paper where they showed aerosol spread of the original SARS virus.) We do not know exactly how long the aerosolized virus persists, and under what conditions, with or without wind, etc. Unless you can prove that it is known FOR SURE that this cannot happen -- let's see your data on that.

Therefore this is not fear-mongering, and I would ask you to please refrain from ad hominem attacks.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 19, 2020 04:00PM
Quote
PeterB
Unless you can prove that it is known FOR SURE that this cannot happen -- let's see your data on that.

Therefore this is not fear-mongering, and I would ask you to please refrain from ad hominem attacks.

There is a magic crystal sitting at the center of the planet.

At a random moment, it will expand to the size of the solar system, and we'll all be dead.

...Unless you can prove for sure that this can't happen and produce solid data to back that up.

Otherwise, any attempt to contradict me is an ad hominem attack.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2020 04:02PM by Sarcany.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 19, 2020 04:05PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
PeterB
Unless you can prove that it is known FOR SURE that this cannot happen -- let's see your data on that.

Therefore this is not fear-mongering, and I would ask you to please refrain from ad hominem attacks.

There is a magic crystal sitting at the center of the planet.

At a random moment, it will expand to the size of the solar system, and we'll all be dead.

...Unless you can prove for sure that this can't happen and produce solid data to back that up.

Otherwise, any attempt to contradict me is an ad hominem attack.

No, that is not what I said; please do not put words in my mouth. You accused me of fear-mongering; that accusation does not follow from anything I posted in this thread -- where everything I posted was based in published articles. If you wish to continue this further, I would suggest we take it to PM.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 19, 2020 04:19PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
PeterB
Unless you can prove that it is known FOR SURE that this cannot happen -- let's see your data on that.

Therefore this is not fear-mongering, and I would ask you to please refrain from ad hominem attacks.

There is a magic crystal sitting at the center of the planet.

At a random moment, it will expand to the size of the solar system, and we'll all be dead.

...Unless you can prove for sure that this can't happen and produce solid data to back that up.

Otherwise, any attempt to contradict me is an ad hominem attack.

No, that is not what I said; please do not put words in my mouth. You accused me of fear-mongering; that accusation does not follow from anything I posted in this thread -- where everything I posted was based in published articles. If you wish to continue this further, I would suggest we take it to PM.

Nothing that you alleged was supported by anything that you cited.

The virus can be transmitted as an airborne aerosol, but there has been no study on the transmissability of the virus in the open air, nor its endurance when wafting on the wind. If it can persist on a draft of air, it is not likely to persist "for hours after an infected person exhales it."

You pushed FUD. You're trying to scare people with nonsense.

You did something wrong and were called on it.

Admit it and move on or with your life, or deny it and move on. Either is fine. But there's no defending it.

You are otherwise a respected member of the forum and someone whose opinions I generally respect, but you blew it here.

If you'd like to stop the discussion on the matter, that's fine with me. I don't see any benefit to weighing teapot theories with you over PMs.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2020 04:20PM by Sarcany.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 19, 2020 05:59PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
PeterB
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
PeterB
Unless you can prove that it is known FOR SURE that this cannot happen -- let's see your data on that.

Therefore this is not fear-mongering, and I would ask you to please refrain from ad hominem attacks.

There is a magic crystal sitting at the center of the planet.

At a random moment, it will expand to the size of the solar system, and we'll all be dead.

...Unless you can prove for sure that this can't happen and produce solid data to back that up.

Otherwise, any attempt to contradict me is an ad hominem attack.

No, that is not what I said; please do not put words in my mouth. You accused me of fear-mongering; that accusation does not follow from anything I posted in this thread -- where everything I posted was based in published articles. If you wish to continue this further, I would suggest we take it to PM.

Nothing that you alleged was supported by anything that you cited.

The virus can be transmitted as an airborne aerosol, but there has been no study on the transmissability of the virus in the open air, nor its endurance when wafting on the wind. If it can persist on a draft of air, it is not likely to persist "for hours after an infected person exhales it."

You pushed FUD. You're trying to scare people with nonsense.

You did something wrong and were called on it.

Admit it and move on or with your life, or deny it and move on. Either is fine. But there's no defending it.

You are otherwise a respected member of the forum and someone whose opinions I generally respect, but you blew it here.

If you'd like to stop the discussion on the matter, that's fine with me. I don't see any benefit to weighing teapot theories with you over PMs.

I'm sorry, but I just have to say: what rubbish. Nothing you've said has made any sense to me whatsoever -- I didn't "[blow] it here", nor was I pushing FUD (your words, not mine), nor did I do anything wrong "and was called on it" (again, your words), nor is it correct to say that I can't defend it -- I gave verifiable, published citations, which you have yet to do. (One of the citations I gave, you must not have actually read, because it deals with apparent transmission through an air conditioning system-- exactly what you were referring to, transmissibility of the virus in the open air, admittedly indoors rather than outdoors, but still. Another article was specifically dealing with traceable transmission of the original SARS virus through aerosol spread. I don't know what else you want. Nobody is going to do a study in the "open air" on a beach to prove that it can be transmitted that way. Obviously there are a ton of unknowns with this virus, I never claimed that it IS transmitted in the open air, only that it COULD be... all the journal articles I have read so far have backed up that possibility, I have yet to find one that didn't.)

I am not interested in pursuing this any further and that's why I suggested that if you wish to continue discussing, it be by PM. Good luck to you.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 19, 2020 07:46PM
Quote
PeterB
only that it COULD be...

When you feel like you've vested a lot of resources into developing some expertise on a subject, realizing that you've said/written something wrong can lead to some emotional turmoil and having it pointed out publicly can seem like an assault.

I've been there, myself. It's a sign that you need to take a break from the forum.

You've strongly implied that going outdoors and breathing the air outside is a life-threatening proposition because some random plague-carrier could have infected that air hours ago.

My counter-proposal is that you take a walk outside and clear your head.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2020 07:59PM by Sarcany.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: RgrF
Date: April 20, 2020 01:49AM
We asked the experts to answer questions about all the places coronavirus lurks (or doesn’t). NYTimes
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Sam3
Date: April 20, 2020 06:16AM
Relevant quote to the PeterB/Sarcany debate from Roger's NY Times link:
Quote
NYTimes
Why is it that small droplets and viral particles don’t typically land on our clothing?

I asked Dr. Marr to explain further, since we’re all getting a mini lesson in aerodynamics.

“The best way to describe it is that they follow the streamlines, or air flow, around a person, because we move relatively slowly. It’s kind of like small insects and dust particles flowing in the streamlines around a car at slow speed but potentially slamming into the windshield if the car is going fast enough,” said Dr. Marr.

“Humans don’t usually move fast enough for this to happen,” Dr. Marr continued. “As we move, we push air out of the way, and most of the droplets and particles get pushed out of the way, too. Someone would have to spray large droplets through talking — a spit talker — coughing or sneezing for them to land on our clothes. The droplets have to be large enough that they don’t follow the streamlines.”

So, if you’re out shopping and somebody sneezes on you, you probably do want to go home, change and shower. But the rest of the time, take comfort that your slow-moving body is pushing air and viral particles away from your clothes, a result of simple physics.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 20, 2020 08:37AM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
PeterB
only that it COULD be...

When you feel like you've vested a lot of resources into developing some expertise on a subject, realizing that you've said/written something wrong can lead to some emotional turmoil and having it pointed out publicly can seem like an assault.

I've been there, myself. It's a sign that you need to take a break from the forum.

You've strongly implied that going outdoors and breathing the air outside is a life-threatening proposition because some random plague-carrier could have infected that air hours ago.

My counter-proposal is that you take a walk outside and clear your head.

Projection abounds... jeezo. Read the articles and make up your own mind, but please do not propose that you know what's going on in mine. And I never proposed what you claim I proposed, I said it's a possibility, which it is.

Edit: Sam3's quote could be interpreted in a number of ways. If we are pushing particles out of the way as we walk about, doesn't that also imply that we're breathing them in too? I'm wondering about the choir group of whom many got infected, despite doing social distancing, etc. [www.latimes.com] (Admittedly, the choir group was in an enclosed space.)

Here's a relatively balanced view on the subject: [www.sciencemag.org]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2020 08:53AM by PeterB.
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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 20, 2020 10:03AM
Sam didn't quote the operative part:

How much should I worry about contamination if I go outside to walk the dog or exercise?

Your chances of catching the virus when you go outdoors is extremely low, provided you’re keeping a safe distance from others.

“Outdoors is safe, and there is certainly no cloud of virus-laden droplets hanging around,” said Lidia Morawska, professor and director of the International Laboratory for Air Quality and Health at Queensland University of Technology in Brisbane, Australia.

“Firstly, any infectious droplets exhaled outside would be quickly diluted in outdoor air, so their concentrations would quickly become insignificant,” Dr. Morawska said. “In addition, the stability of the virus outside is significantly shorter than inside. So outside is not really a problem, unless if we are in a very crowded place — which is not allowed now anyway. It is safe to go for a walk and jog and not to worry about the virus in the air, and there is no need for an immediate washing of the clothes.”


Give your ego a rest, Peter.

You are better than this.

You don't have to be right all the time.



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Re: Florida beaches are open
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 20, 2020 04:04PM
Quote
Sarcany
You don't have to be right all the time.

smiley-laughing001   jest smiley   smiley-laughing001   jest smiley   smiley-laughing001



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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