advertisement
Forums

 

AAPL stock: Click Here

You are currently viewing the 'Friendly' Political Ranting forum
It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: May 13, 2020 07:08PM
On this side since it touches on the coronavirus pestilence.

Interesting opinion piece.

[nymag.com]

Colleges and universities are scrambling to figure out what to do next year if students can’t come back to campus. Half the schools have pushed back their May 1 deadlines for accepting seats. What do you expect to happen over the next month?

There’s a recognition that education — the value, the price, the product — has fundamentally shifted. The value of education has been substantially degraded. There’s the education certification and then there’s the experience part of college. The experience part of it is down to zero, and the education part has been dramatically reduced. You get a degree that, over time, will be reduced in value as we realize it’s not the same to be a graduate of a liberal-arts college if you never went to campus. You can see already how students and their parents are responding.

At universities, we’re having constant meetings, and we’ve all adopted this narrative of “This is unprecedented, and we’re in this together,” which is Latin for “We’re not lowering our prices, @#$%&.”...




Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: JoeH
Date: May 13, 2020 07:38PM
I follow the reddit for the university I work at. Already seeing posts from students who are not planning on attending next Fall if classes are still online. A common theme is if they are going to be online, they might as well take the course at a local community college or another lower cost alternative.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: May 13, 2020 07:46PM
Quote
JoeH
I follow the reddit for the university I work at. Already seeing posts from students who are not planning on attending next Fall if classes are still online. A common theme is if they are going to be online, they might as well take the course at a local community college or another lower cost alternative.

Yep. Or just an online school in general. They are much better prepared for this than a college or university scrambling to figure out how to do it.

I'm honestly amazed that more parents in K-12 didn't enroll their kids in online schools for the last 2 months of the year. Especially in schools that struggled to roll out any type of online learning.

Our kid's elementary school did daily pre-recorded lessons and sent home work packets every 2 weeks. Probably 2-3 hours of work a days worth if you did all the optional assignments and went through all the work. All the work is turned in and graded and at the end of the year we get our normal summary of where they stand with their skills.

I



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 13, 2020 08:17PM
.....fall in.....to......the gap......???



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 13, 2020 08:56PM
Well all of this explains what you're seeing in this article:

[www.chronicle.com]

... my own institution is grappling with this, because if we don't open back up in the fall for in-person classes, there's a good chance that we'll be facing major cuts, furloughs, and layoffs... tenure or no tenure. My institution has kept tuition VERY low for a private school, and ironically, this has left it in a very vulnerable position financially I think, since we don't have a huge endowment. What we DO have going for us is a very loyal student population, who for the most part would very definitely want to be getting a degree from us rather than some online or community college.

I disagree with the general idea that the value of a college degree has decreased and I definitely disagree with the cynicism of the NY Mag article. If anything, the coronavirus situation has taught our students that there is no substitute for face-to-face interactions with the faculty, staff, and their fellow students. I don't think ANY of them want to do online or community colleges (the latter of which might end up going online anyway). Also, the article reeks of the consumerism that has pervaded higher ed for decades now; the idea that students are "customers" buying a "product" that has a "value", e.g., paying for grades and a diploma. No to all of that. Students are paying for an education and an opportunity... what they make of that is up to them.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: May 13, 2020 09:00PM
Didn’t Cal State just announce everything will be online next year? I’m a liaison to several instructors who sometimes teach college and university and every one says they don’t know of a single institution that won’t be online this Fall. This is old hat to many of them ... some of which who began doing this in the ‘90s and then progressed to the Blackboard system before finally giving way to more modern solutions anyone can download for free (Zoom et al.)

Undergrads are a wildly different circumstance. You can’t do online there unless it’s some for-profit crap that’s not answerable to your State regarding standards and guidelines. No thanks. I’d homeschool them long before I have my kids do online undergrad work.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: testcase
Date: May 13, 2020 10:41PM
With the easing of mandated stay at home policies, I fully expect to see a surge in Covid19 cases within the next two months. I also expect that said surge will hit harder and generally be worse than had the collective "we" stayed isolated for a longer period of time. Yes, I understand that the pandemic has serious consequences for the economy BUT, a high death rate will have MUCH more severe consequences.. We CAN come back from an economic disaster. The dead can NOT come back to life. sad smiley
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: Sam3
Date: May 14, 2020 03:59AM
Quote
testcase
With the easing of mandated stay at home policies, I fully expect to see a surge in Covid19 cases within the next two months. I also expect that said surge will hit harder and generally be worse than had the collective "we" stayed isolated for a longer period of time. Yes, I understand that the pandemic has serious consequences for the economy BUT, a high death rate will have MUCH more severe consequences.. We CAN come back from an economic disaster. The dead can NOT come back to life. sad smiley

Not to worry, there won't be a visible surge, it will all be OK.

Why, you ask?

Because the leadership of some states will stop reporting numbers, err.. are already stopping the reporting of certain Covid-19 numbers - [www.washingtonpost.com] [www.tampabay.com]



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: May 14, 2020 07:17AM
Wasn’t it Tyson who took out a big ad in NYT last month, saying how bad the virus was? And now that it’s at their door in Nebraska, can’t cite numbers because “privacy?”

Just who are these dead and infected so “worried” that the public will know who they are?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: JoeH
Date: May 14, 2020 09:56AM
It's not the dead or the infected who are so "worried", but the politicians and the irresponsible business management.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: May 14, 2020 10:37AM
People dying in meat processing plants makes me nervous given the industry ethics (or lack of same)..

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!!!!!




“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 14, 2020 11:49AM
My wife teaches at a small private liberal arts university. She was planning to retire after fall ‘21 semester. She was going to lead a study-abroad group to Spain spring ‘21 semester but she doubts if that will happen due to the virus so now she thinks she may retire before the start of fall ‘20 which would be three semesters early. She does not like the online instruction at all.

The department she is in (and was the immediate prior chair) had a mandated meeting yesterday looking for ways to save money. One professor about 10 years junior in age (but the same rank) put forth an argument that the most-senior professors should retire now. It was a Zoom meeting and my wife was using headphones so I could only hear her side as she was ripping a new one for that colleague. Three times because her colleague was so fond of her great idea that she kept pushing it. My wife is normally very collegial but not for that meeting. The department has already cut two members (adjuncts) out of 15 for fall ‘20.

The current chair responded to all the members of the department after the meeting that he had contacted the dean who told him the only thing available was ‘phased retirement’ which is teaching two classes instead of three and still retaining benefits. Salary would be cut by 1/3, of course. This is the same thing that has been offered for about 15 years.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: $tevie
Date: May 14, 2020 01:13PM
I can't understand discussing online college without recognizing that colleges and universities have grown into being residential complexes which include education. What is going to happen to the buildings which house students, the cafeterias, the theaters, the auditoriums, the campus stores, the security guards, the shuttles, the housekeepers, the maintenance people, the nurses and psychologists, the student affairs and student activity staff, and so on and so forth? I don't see parents paying the same amount of tuition for a student if they are only getting the lessons and not the vast array of services and entertainment which current universities offer.

It seems to me that in a lot of situations, it might be more realistic to picture a university as a place where you send your children for nine months and do not see them. They quarantine for 14 days, join the population, and at the end of the year they quarantine for 14 days and head home. Otherwise, there is going to be a lot of real estate available and a lot of employees out of work, because nobody needs an immense campus if there are no students there. And nobody needs to pay a quarter of a million dollars for four years of talking heads on a screen, and it won't take long for parents to get fed up with that concept.



Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 14, 2020 01:16PM
This is what the liberal arts university from which my two kids graduated has posted about fall semester. The state in which the school is located has not even entered Phase 1 of its reopening plan yet. I get that the school needs students on campus in order to justify their tuition costs, but I think this is overly optimistic:

We look forward to welcoming all students to campus in late August and resuming in-person instruction while adhering to all applicable public health guidelines and stringent safety protocols. Although we have no way of knowing if we will need to pivot to remote learning partially or fully at any point, we will be well prepared to assist our students in having a successful and rigorous academic experience if we have to move to one of these contingencies


I think it will be pretty risky to resume on-campus life in August. Most students are from out of state and have to share their living space, there are not enough dorms to do singles and even with single rooms they still have common living areas. There is only one dining hall and it's usually crowded at meal time, not sure how they're going to manage that. There is Greek life - banned?? They really imagine that 18-21 year olds will forgo parties and zoom instead?? I guess we'll find out how many parents are willing to risk it.

I think sober students in socially distanced, masked classroom settings can control things but drunk/high kids on the weekends?? Unless their behavior changes in drastic ways - how will that not be a disaster? Those types of settings (super-spreader events) are the most dangerous.

When they go home for visits will they have to quarantine before interacting with their families?
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: May 14, 2020 01:44PM
It seems to me that in a lot of situations, it might be more realistic to picture a university as a place where you send your children for nine months and do not see them. They quarantine for 14 days, join the population, and at the end of the year they quarantine for 14 days and head home

I see it this way too - I just wonder about outbreaks on campus, among the students themselves, given the problems already seen at nightclubs and other large social gatherings, and at residential schools that unadvisedly tried to re-open this spring.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 14, 2020 02:00PM
Quote
$tevie
I can't understand discussing online college without recognizing that colleges and universities have grown into being residential complexes which include education. What is going to happen to the buildings which house students, the cafeterias, the theaters, the auditoriums, the campus stores, the security guards, the shuttles, the housekeepers, the maintenance people, the nurses and psychologists, the student affairs and student activity staff, and so on and so forth? I don't see parents paying the same amount of tuition for a student if they are only getting the lessons and not the vast array of services and entertainment which current universities offer.

It seems to me that in a lot of situations, it might be more realistic to picture a university as a place where you send your children for nine months and do not see them. They quarantine for 14 days, join the population, and at the end of the year they quarantine for 14 days and head home. Otherwise, there is going to be a lot of real estate available and a lot of employees out of work, because nobody needs an immense campus if there are no students there. And nobody needs to pay a quarter of a million dollars for four years of talking heads on a screen, and it won't take long for parents to get fed up with that concept.

As usual, $tevie hits the nail on the head. What the whole situation has taught us (or at least me and those students with whom I've discussed it) is that college is a life experience, and a big part of that experience is the in-person interactions that students have with everyone else... which online universities do not provide. I also think $tevie is onto something in terms of how to manage things... we already require that students receive vaccinations prior to enrollment, so mandatory testing is not out of line. I agree that students are paying for an education, and that talking heads on a screen is not the same... the problem is that much of the college tuition is NOT going to the instruction, it's going to lining the pockets of administrators, building new, unnecessary campus facilities, etc. If we end up doing all-online come the Fall, unfortunately as I said, they're likely to cut the wrong things.

Edit: I'm just reading all of what LD posted. I think (this is just my uninformed, NON-college administrator, opinion!) that the best way to deal with it, is the same way we deal with outbreaks of contagious diseases of other types that have sometimes occurred on college campuses: you quarantine affected individuals (which admittedly sucks for those students), and if necessary, shut down a dorm. My institution has had outbreaks of things like swine flu... luckily, the cases had already been isolated by virtue of the fact that many of our students live off-campus.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2020 02:04PM by PeterB.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: May 14, 2020 05:57PM
It is not just colleges facing the issue of empty campuses - every public school is potentially in the same boat. Taxpayers will not long support a large school campus that is empty but still requires upkeep.

I'm really afraid that some states (mine included) will look at this as an opportunity to push permanent online schooling and cut way back on funding for traditional schools.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: deckeda
Date: May 14, 2020 07:38PM
Any college or university who posts today a message like the one LD posted, where they’re delivering a welcome message that claims to also be ready to pivot and do “whatever” is doing so for one reason: to gauge acceptance and attendance.

Take it with a grain of salt and don’t judge harshly. They will soon know who’s gonna show up this Fall and if the numbers are low, all sorts of online stuff will appear.

All of the myriad other concerns regarding excess capacity, funding and taxes are all going to be pain points for a long time to come unfortunately.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 14, 2020 07:39PM
Quote
Ombligo
It is not just colleges facing the issue of empty campuses - every public school is potentially in the same boat. Taxpayers will not long support a large school campus that is empty but still requires upkeep.

I'm really afraid that some states (mine included) will look at this as an opportunity to push permanent online schooling and cut way back on funding for traditional schools.

There's a terribly backward movement in education to say that "technology is better!" ... but the reality is, more technology does not always = better. The online stuff is an example of that. Some students like the fact that they can learn on their own schedule. Many have complained to me that they don't learn nearly as well online as in person, and based on their test/quiz scores, I'd have to agree.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: bfd
Date: May 14, 2020 09:46PM
Three weeks ago, the drums started beating at CSU, several hastily called department zoom meetings to quickly identify essential f2f classes, nice to have f2f classes, and those classes that can be done completely online.

That's when anyone paying attention knew what was coming next. And this week the CSU chancellor made the announcement - only a very few f2f classes this fall (the summer is already totally online). No compensation adjustments for faculty, staff, or apparently, pricing breaks for students and their parents.

Of course, if you charge less for the education, someone has to be paid less to deliver it. For some, the Faculty Early Retirement Program (FERP) has to be ringing some bells right now. Who needs all this online nonsense, trying to deal with students one has never even met in person.

But there are so many more people on a campus to be concerned about. From office staff, to those who work in the commons, to the gardeners and janitorial staff, 25 officers on the campus police squad. Who needs 25 when there's no kids on campus? So there is potentially a YUGE loss to lots of people who probably aren't easily re-employed in similar jobs right now.

And what about K-12 education? This is the next real mess as it continues to roll out - but we have all summer to figure it all out. Right??!
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 14, 2020 09:50PM
Quote
bfd
Three weeks ago, the drums started beating at CSU, several hastily called department zoom meetings to quickly identify essential f2f classes, nice to have f2f classes, and those classes that can be done completely online.

That's when anyone paying attention knew what was coming next. And this week the CSU chancellor made the announcement - only a very few f2f classes this fall (the summer is already totally online). No compensation adjustments for faculty, staff, or apparently, pricing breaks for students and their parents.

Of course, if you charge less for the education, someone has to be paid less to deliver it. For some, the Faculty Early Retirement Program (FERP) has to be ringing some bells right now. Who needs all this online nonsense, trying to deal with students one has never even met in person.

But there are so many more people on a campus to be concerned about. From office staff, to those who work in the commons, to the gardeners and janitorial staff, 25 officers on the campus police squad. Who needs 25 when there's no kids on campus? So there is potentially a YUGE loss to lots of people who probably aren't easily re-employed in similar jobs right now.

And what about K-12 education? This is the next real mess as it continues to roll out - but we have all summer to figure it all out. Right??!

You'll notice that no mention is ever made of cutting the highest wage-earners in higher ed: the administrators, the never-ending list of Deans and Deanlets of this/that/theotherthing; the ones who've had little or no direct contact with any student on their campus for extended periods, etc.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: RgrF
Date: May 14, 2020 10:37PM
You'll notice that no mention is ever made of cutting the highest wage-earners in higher ed: the administrators, the never-ending list of Deans and Deanlets of this/that/theotherthing

Nope. They've put in their time while bearing the slings and arrows of students, faculty and worst of all parents. If we cut them loose, what guarantee is that for our own future?

It's everyone for themselves!
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: May 14, 2020 11:10PM
The public teachers' unions will be the arbiters of when school begins, and I would include secondary education in that calculation. There are (and have been) rumblings of how they will not feel safe upon any September (or late August) start dates. If they do not return, I can imagine the secondary tier also not coming in for fall semester.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: May 14, 2020 11:20PM
Quote
mrbigstuff
The public teachers' unions will be the arbiters of when school begins, and I would include secondary education in that calculation. There are (and have been) rumblings of how they will not feel safe upon any September (or late August) start dates. If they do not return, I can imagine the secondary tier also not coming in for fall semester.

If you think that parents don't give a crap about teachers now, wait until the teachers union tells the parents that they can't send their kids to school in the fall. That will go over well...Every state is looking for places to cut funding. If teachers won't teach I'd imagine that parents will be complaining about why their taxes are going to schools. Expect school budgets to be slashed if in person instruction isn't happening.



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: May 15, 2020 01:16AM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
mrbigstuff
The public teachers' unions will be the arbiters of when school begins, and I would include secondary education in that calculation. There are (and have been) rumblings of how they will not feel safe upon any September (or late August) start dates. If they do not return, I can imagine the secondary tier also not coming in for fall semester.

If you think that parents don't give a crap about teachers now, wait until the teachers union tells the parents that they can't send their kids to school in the fall. That will go over well...Every state is looking for places to cut funding. If teachers won't teach I'd imagine that parents will be complaining about why their taxes are going to schools. Expect school budgets to be slashed if in person instruction isn't happening.

The flip side of this is that the last few months may have made the parents a whole lot more appreciative of what teachers do, and WANT to get their kids back into school. (Do parents really want to be tasked with the job of home schooling their kids for another 4-9 months, not to mention the kids being at home all the time? As it stands now, many of them are at each others' throats... at least, that's what I'm hearing.)




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2020 01:16AM by PeterB.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: Sam3
Date: May 15, 2020 04:05AM
My daughter is in high school, and she is enjoying our district's Learn From Home program. She is finding it less stressful than being in school, as most of her instructors are giving assignments that don't have a daily or weekly deadline, but have a longer deadline, more like college. She likes that she can prioritize what she needs to get done, and when. She misses her friends, but outside of that she is comfortable with remote learning. If the GOP led legislature doesn't torpedo the governor's steady steering of the ship, we may be back to having in-person K-12 school this fall. However, some GOP legislators have already said that K-12 funding will be getting cut, maybe as much as 25%. This would devastate the public school system.

[www.usatoday.com]

Fun times ahead.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
Options:  Reply • Quote
Re: It’s a great year to take a gap year...
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: May 15, 2020 07:47AM
One kid left in undergrad...after they came home first week of March (never returned to campus after Spring Break) I let them know I wouldn't be signing any more one-year leases after having to pay for an off-campus apartment empty from March through the end of July.

Kid's tuition/fees are paid for by Uncle Sam & their non-STEM major needs no in-person instruction, so they're good to go wherever classes are this fall.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2020 07:48AM by Bill in NC.
Options:  Reply • Quote
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login

Online Users

Guests: 113
Record Number of Users: 186 on February 20, 2020
Record Number of Guests: 2330 on October 25, 2018