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Defund the police?
Posted by: samintx
Date: June 07, 2020 09:34AM
I don’t understand. We need a police force. How much defunding are groups advocating?
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 07, 2020 09:48AM
It’s a question of percentages, right? No one is advocating for 100%.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 07, 2020 09:54AM
Here’s something from The Atlantic. Might help explain what’s meant by “defund,” and why.

[www.theatlantic.com]
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: samintx
Date: June 07, 2020 09:59AM
Quote
deckeda
Here’s something from The Atlantic. Might help explain what’s meant by “defund,” and why.

[www.theatlantic.com]

Thanks for reference. Unions are going to put a food down on cutting some of the mentioned bloated budgets.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: June 07, 2020 10:04AM
Quote
samintx
I don’t understand. We need a police force. How much defunding are groups advocating?

One area that I'd like to see addressed once again is civil asset forfeitures, a.k.a. "policing for profit" -- the ability of local police to confiscate property from citizens and sell it for profit by charging the property with a crime. It seems unconstitutional on its face, but its done anyway all over the country.

Cops have been known to confiscate cash from people in traffic-stops and the cars and houses from people only tangentially related to those who are suspected of small crimes -- the house of the landlord whose tenant held an ounce of pot, for example. This money finances acquisitions of military weapons/armor/transport in partnerships with the federal government and in many cases it also finances parties and side-businesses for corrupt cops.

Under the Obama administration, this was being curtailed. Drumpf immediately reversed that when he got into office. The SCOTUS ruled against it unanimously, but they left so many loopholes available that the decision is only useful to those who have a few hundred thousand dollars to throw at a lawsuit.



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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 07, 2020 10:14AM
Quote
samintx
Quote
deckeda
Here’s something from The Atlantic. Might help explain what’s meant by “defund,” and why.

[www.theatlantic.com]

Thanks for reference. Unions are going to put a food down on cutting some of the mentioned bloated budgets.

I noticed that towards the end there’s mention of this. It’s like, “We need to do X, we can’t do X with reduced budgets.”

And that’s because they shouldn’t be doing X in the first place. It’s never wise to propose reduced budgets without explaining why. “Not enough money” is ultimately an excuse for not admitting priorities are elsewhere. It’s said in order to avoid a fight.

That’s the political fight we need. The author mentions that Obama’s task forces and police “fixes” were just “ludicrous,” and that there’s evidence that making officers watch videos for how “not to be racist” makes them more racist ... because it never addresses the core problems. It’s like giving them the wrong tool and saying, “We gave you the this hammer ...” without realizing it’s a screwdriver.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2020 10:15AM by deckeda.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: rgG
Date: June 07, 2020 10:24AM
I asked my daughter this same question the other day.
She said it means they want to reallocate some/many of the funds police get to different groups/agencies. The idea is others can better deal with many of the things police do now, in a less violent racist way.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Kraniac
Date: June 07, 2020 10:24AM
The primary focus of 'defunding the police" is to defund the 'militarization' of the police. which has been an alarming trend for many years. Where cops, even via the seemingly superficial component of their uniforms looking like military jumpsuits in many states and cities, gain an implied sense of power and an implied change in job description from wearing these intimidating costumes...Think: Robert De Niro talking to himself in the mirror in Taxi Driver..this DOES make a difference..and not a good difference..especially to an irresponsibly hired CHUMP who's only light in life is the feeling of power he gains from being a cop..when his only real qualifications might be working at Arby's. This is real, folks..we have a huge @#$%& problem here..And, I'll add, we've always had a problem with bad cops, corrupt cops, mentally ill cops, racists cops--this doesn't start with Rodney King---have you watched that video recently?? you should.

...adding this militarization factor is a @#$%& nightmare..because we never clamped down on the 'bad cop' aspects of this, and, in fact, the bad cop/unqualified cop/wrongly motivated cop/sick cop thing has gotten worse....DUH.

...but it's much deeper than just the Uniforms and presentation as a much more intimidating presence...vehicles, weaponry on board, weaponry available, and an encouraged ramping up of attitude and concept of what the police should be..

If you want a good example of this? Watch the video from Buffalo NY where this 'special force' pushes that 70 year old man down...look at the act...and then look very closely at the faces of these complete amateurs after it happens as they approach the camera...rewind it...focusing on each on each of the characters...look at their responses...these are people are lost in these uniforms..It all comes pouring out after this man they pushed is severely injured and bleeding from his ear...that's what a bunch of toys and a costume can do to these kids...and thy are kids..

And the Federal Guv and State and local Guvs have been pouring Billions of dollars into this...here we are..with this downright evil face slowly killing a man..this self entitlement is horrifying.

...BLM and others want this money redirected..I think it's a good thing...I dont agree with everything about it and the implementation needs a lot of work-- but it's time to make the police force what it should be...turn the @#$%& upside down...we're now seeing crisp, decisive firings happen-the way it should be...the Police unions need to be confronted directly...FOP needs to be castrated, the cop code of silence needs to be smashed into pieces and consequence needs to be in place for cops who won't speak or witness their peers...@#$%& these @#$%&.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2020 10:32AM by Kraniac.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Markintosh
Date: June 07, 2020 10:25AM
By defund the police, what comes to my mind is "demilitarize" the police.



“Live your life, love your life, don’t regret…live, learn and move forward positively.” – CR Johnson
Loving life in Lake Tahoe, CA
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: rgG
Date: June 07, 2020 10:28AM
My father used to say, years and years ago, “anyone who says they want to be a cop, should not be allowed to be a cop.”

I think, in most cases, he was right.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 07, 2020 10:32AM
Quote
rgG
My father used to say, years and years ago, “anyone who says they want to be a cop, should not be allowed to be a cop.”

I think, in most cases, he was right.

Same probably goes for wanting to be a politician.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: June 07, 2020 10:34AM
Nothing against the older crew here in this thread (of which I count myself among) but does anyone else think it interesting that older folks hear about Police defunding and their first thought is “less” safety?
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: mattkime
Date: June 07, 2020 10:48AM
Quote
deckeda
Nothing against the older crew here in this thread (of which I count myself among) but does anyone else think it interesting that older folks hear about Police defunding and their first thought is “less” safety?

Bingo!



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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: vision63
Date: June 07, 2020 11:11AM
Quote
deckeda
Nothing against the older crew here in this thread (of which I count myself among) but does anyone else think it interesting that older folks hear about Police defunding and their first thought is “less” safety?

It's not like there isn't crime. There is plenty of it and not enough being done about it. Everybody doesn't have bars covering their windows for no reason.

I agree with Kraniac's view here. Definitely demilitarize the "forces," but I think cops should actually be paid "more" money with a much greater emphasis on training and retraining.

Think of any profession that has to emphasize zero tolerance for error. We're talking airline pilots (Chris Rock jokes that with pilots, you can't have 'A few bad apples'). Doctors, Nuclear Plant staffers etc. They constantly have to improve their skills or they don't keep their jobs. Most cops don't start off bad, it's difficult to be a cop. It's difficult to "become" a cop. Just because you're suited for it at a point doesn't mean you stay suited for it. They need training and guidance and we fail to provide that for them because departments are political fodder and footballs by politicians (mayors mostly).

There isn't a lack of funds to spend on the people's welfare, just a lack of will to fund it. Elections have consequences. Most of the inner cities are crumbling to dust. You can't drive your car in Compton without dodging serious ass ridiculous sized potholes for example. Funding for proposed defunded department budgets shouldn't actually be borne by the municipalities. It should be federal.

Los Angeles' Mayor Garcetti has knee jerked redirected funds from LAPD as a good-will gesture and that's fine. There needs to be much more thought than he's putting into it. Lots of the most frustrated people are unfortunately not going to vote and that's where you get power. You don't start something that you can't sustain through the political tides. That has to be strategized and coded into city charters.

The best part of this is by and large is that white aren't dismissing Black people's concerns regarding our safety arising from out of control, racist cops and wannabe cops. That its real and it's not a distraction that can be erased via economic prosperity.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2020 11:14AM by vision63.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: S. Pupp
Date: June 07, 2020 11:12AM
Why even have a police force?
We the people are well behaved enough we can police ourselves.
Recent events have shown that, without prompting, people just behave themselves, keeping 6 feet away from each other, wearing masks out in public, and not looting Apple Stores.

Oh, wait - Never mind.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: June 07, 2020 11:46AM
"Black Lives Matter co-founder says defunding the police means invest in the resources our communities need"
[thehill.com]
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: June 07, 2020 11:55AM
Quote
S. Pupp
Why even have a police force?

Originally?

The first settlements in the United States usually had one person whose job was to keep order. Sometimes called a "constable." His job was mostly helping out with animal husbandry issues and resolving domestic disputes.

Groups of people organized for law enforcement didn't really take off until they started organizing to collect bounties on runaway slaves and later to round up and/or kill unlawful Chinese immigrants.

In the 1800s, formal police bureaus were started in large cities such as Boston and New York to keep the poor in their ghettos. Many of these organizations started disinformation campaigns to raise money by convincing white people that people of color were all criminals and needed to be kept in-check.

The effort was wildly successful. And that brings us to today.



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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 07, 2020 12:29PM
Quote
Sarcany
Groups of people organized for law enforcement didn't really take off until they started organizing to collect bounties on runaway slaves and later to round up and/or kill unlawful Chinese immigrants.

A rather skewed response/declaration...

Ancient policing
Law enforcement in ancient China was carried out by "prefects" for thousands of years since it developed in both the Chu and Jin kingdoms...”

“In ancient Egypt evidence of law enforcement exists as far back as the Old Kingdom period. There are records of an office known as ‘Judge Commandant of the Police’ dating to the fourth dynasty.”

Early modern policing
The first centrally organised police force was created by the government of King Louis XIV in 1667 to police the city of Paris, then the largest city in Europe.“



[en.m.wikipedia.org]
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Ted King
Date: June 07, 2020 01:04PM
It seems like the current use of "defund the police" is somewhat like the use of "income inequality". The term "income inequality" implies that what is being sought is that everyone have exactly the same income, but that's not what is intended. What is intended is the notion that there is too much disparity in incomes. Likewise, I get the impression that "defund the police" isn't intended to mean literally getting rid of police by not paying them, but instead that too many resources are going into policing and not enough into social programs.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: June 07, 2020 01:09PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Sarcany
Groups of people organized for law enforcement didn't really take off until they started organizing to collect bounties on runaway slaves and later to round up and/or kill unlawful Chinese immigrants.

A rather skewed response/declaration...

Was explicitly describing policing in the United States.



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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: vision63
Date: June 07, 2020 01:20PM
Quote
Ted King
It seems like the current use of "defund the police" is somewhat like the use of "income inequality". The term "income inequality" implies that what is being sought is that everyone have exactly the same income, but that's not what is intended. What is intended is the notion that there is too much disparity in incomes. Likewise, I get the impression that "defund the police" isn't intended to mean literally getting rid of police by not paying them, but instead that too many resources are going into policing and not enough into social programs.

It's too vague just before an election.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: June 07, 2020 01:23PM
Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: JoeH
Date: June 07, 2020 01:36PM
Quote
deckeda
Nothing against the older crew here in this thread (of which I count myself among) but does anyone else think it interesting that older folks hear about Police defunding and their first thought is “less” safety?

Not from me. I have seen too much spent by various police forces on their "toys", under no illusion that a good chunk of the money spent on police is not well spent or outright wasted.

Quite frankly, from what I have seen hiring of half a dozen social workers or similar would in many places do more good than the same amount spent to hire 2-3 police officers.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: June 07, 2020 01:39PM
The very first thing we need to do is to cease calling them a "force." The very least. Then we need to break the military to police person stranglehold, which is very real, break union dominance, and establish an upside down pyramid of accountability.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 07, 2020 01:54PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Sarcany
Groups of people organized for law enforcement didn't really take off until they started organizing to collect bounties on runaway slaves and later to round up and/or kill unlawful Chinese immigrants.

A rather skewed response/declaration...

Was explicitly describing policing in the United States.

Citation?
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: June 07, 2020 02:29PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Sarcany
Groups of people organized for law enforcement didn't really take off until they started organizing to collect bounties on runaway slaves and later to round up and/or kill unlawful Chinese immigrants.

A rather skewed response/declaration...

Was explicitly describing policing in the United States.

Citation?

Tried Googling?



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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: June 07, 2020 03:16PM
In other countries police have to take years of college courses that deal with de-escalation and mental health issues. In the US, people with this training are social workers and only see people if they live long enough to get into the system.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 07, 2020 04:14PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Sarcany
Groups of people organized for law enforcement didn't really take off until they started organizing to collect bounties on runaway slaves and later to round up and/or kill unlawful Chinese immigrants.

A rather skewed response/declaration...

Was explicitly describing policing in the United States.

Citation?

Tried Googling?

Why do we need to go through this several times a year?

If you make a claim, it’s not other people’s responsibility to validate it, it’s yours.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: June 07, 2020 04:36PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Sarcany
Groups of people organized for law enforcement didn't really take off until they started organizing to collect bounties on runaway slaves and later to round up and/or kill unlawful Chinese immigrants.

A rather skewed response/declaration...

Was explicitly describing policing in the United States.

Citation?

Tried Googling?

Why do we need to go through this several times a year?

If you make a claim, it’s not other people’s responsibility to validate it, it’s yours.

[duckduckgo.com]



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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: bfd
Date: June 07, 2020 04:46PM
Defunding the police means refunding community services. When you think about how the police are tasked with so many ancillary duties - much as has happened in education - social work, psychiatric work, drug counseling, dealing with family violence, etc., there's reason to believe that putting trained personnel into the community in place of policing could help. More radical positions advocate completely disbanding police departments.

One thing is certain, however. Police have become outlaws in far too many situations. This must end now.

Added this article: [www.npr.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2020 04:51PM by bfd.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 07, 2020 07:08PM
There are a lot of worthwhile European models of policing to emulate, problem really is with police "unions".
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 07, 2020 07:40PM
Quote
RgrF
There are a lot of worthwhile European models of policing to emulate, problem really is with police "unions".
Yes, the so-called unions are a gigantic reason why police forces are so expensive and so filled with fascists and racists. I don't want anti-union laws because as a rule I am pro-union, but something needs to be done about these yahoos who stick up for every cop who commits any sort of crime. The Fraternal Order of Police in Baltimore spends all their time making sure that killer cops go free and that illegal overtime is swept under the table. I would like to see our force disbanded like in Camden, which would take the FOP down with it. Then start anew with a smaller force of people who strictly work on crime. No sending them out to pick up drunks, or hassle the homeless, or talk to mentally ill people who went off their meds. No more pulling a gun as the answer to every.thing.they.are.called.for.



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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 07, 2020 09:03PM
$ - that point you made about Camden? I only have a vague recollection of the sense that Camden was among, if not the most, corrupt of places in Jersey (it's NJ - that's something).

Moving west I lost track of those sort of things. By western measurements Baltimore and Camden, although in different states, are almost like neighborhoods. So what was the upshot of Camden dissolving it's city police?

I'd trust your sense of it over whatever Google might spit up.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 07, 2020 10:08PM
Crime is way down, but the force has gotten pretty white because you don't have to live in Camden to work there. I imagine they are going to be addressing that in the coming years, since that sort of undercuts the concept.

Baltimore needs to burn down our police and start over. We have the most corrupt police force, and the most disgusting union, and I don't see any way to fix it regardless of what they try as long as the force is 80% @#$%&.



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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: vision63
Date: June 07, 2020 10:28PM
Quote
$tevie
Crime is way down, but the force has gotten pretty white because you don't have to live in Camden to work there. I imagine they are going to be addressing that in the coming years, since that sort of undercuts the concept.

Baltimore needs to burn down our police and start over. We have the most corrupt police force, and the most disgusting union, and I don't see any way to fix it regardless of what they try as long as the force is 80% @#$%&.

As was well documented by kickass network and hbo series.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 07, 2020 11:09PM
Quote
vision63
Quote
$tevie
Crime is way down, but the force has gotten pretty white because you don't have to live in Camden to work there. I imagine they are going to be addressing that in the coming years, since that sort of undercuts the concept.

Baltimore needs to burn down our police and start over. We have the most corrupt police force, and the most disgusting union, and I don't see any way to fix it regardless of what they try as long as the force is 80% @#$%&.

As was well documented by kickass network and hbo series.
We might be the only city whose popular TV shows were bluntly realistic. Even "Roc" was pretty realistic.



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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: bfd
Date: June 07, 2020 11:12PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
vision63
Quote
$tevie
Crime is way down, but the force has gotten pretty white because you don't have to live in Camden to work there. I imagine they are going to be addressing that in the coming years, since that sort of undercuts the concept.

Baltimore needs to burn down our police and start over. We have the most corrupt police force, and the most disgusting union, and I don't see any way to fix it regardless of what they try as long as the force is 80% @#$%&.

As was well documented by kickass network and hbo series.
We might be the only city whose popular TV shows were bluntly realistic. Even "Roc" was pretty realistic.
Yes, Homicide: Life on the Streets was well done.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: vision63
Date: June 07, 2020 11:19PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
vision63
Quote
$tevie
Crime is way down, but the force has gotten pretty white because you don't have to live in Camden to work there. I imagine they are going to be addressing that in the coming years, since that sort of undercuts the concept.

Baltimore needs to burn down our police and start over. We have the most corrupt police force, and the most disgusting union, and I don't see any way to fix it regardless of what they try as long as the force is 80% @#$%&.

As was well documented by kickass network and hbo series.
We might be the only city whose popular TV shows were bluntly realistic. Even "Roc" was pretty realistic.

I'm not from Baltimore but I know about Locust Point, Pit Beef and Lake Trout (that's not really trout), Patapsco Docs and river, Baltimore County vs Baltimore City etc.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 07, 2020 11:22PM
WELL DONE!!!!

Merely the best cop/crime series ever to be shown by broadcast TV.

Ever!!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2020 11:26PM by RgrF.
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: vision63
Date: June 08, 2020 03:34AM
Quote
RgrF
WELL DONE!!!!

Merely the best cop/crime series ever to be shown by broadcast TV.

Ever!!!!

Thanky!
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: Ted King
Date: June 08, 2020 07:47AM
"Video Shows Law Enforcement Officers Slashing Tires at Minneapolis Protests":

[slate.com]
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: testcase
Date: June 08, 2020 10:22AM
Quote
S. Pupp
Why even have a police force?
We the people are well behaved enough we can police ourselves.
Recent events have shown that, without prompting, people just behave themselves, keeping 6 feet away from each other, wearing masks out in public, and not looting Apple Stores.

Oh, wait - Never mind.


We have a WINNER!!!


ROTFL
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Re: Defund the police?
Posted by: $tevie
Date: June 09, 2020 12:22PM
Quote
vision63
I'm not from Baltimore but I know about Locust Point, Pit Beef and Lake Trout (that's not really trout), Patapsco Docs and river, Baltimore County vs Baltimore City etc.
There used to be a local band named Lake Trout. smiling smiley



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