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Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 10, 2020 12:55PM
Was glad to see this historic move by the Marines and Navy this week to ban the Confederate flag.

Robert E Lee statue, long a prominent feature of downtown Richmond VA, has been ordered down

NFL players and thousands of students joined in a petition to have the name of US VP and slave holder John C Calhoun removed from Clemson University buildings and programs (Calhoun donated his land for the school)

NASCAR had asked fans not to display the flag. Not all have complied but it's something that they've made the request. Their only Black driver is leading the change on that.

Many cities are taking more monuments down. It's past time.

Statues are symbolic, taking them down is the symbolism we need now.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 10, 2020 01:10PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Robert E Lee statue, long a prominent feature of downtown Richmond VA, has been ordered down

...


Statues are symbolic, taking them down is the symbolism we need now.

Not so fast there, little lady - to some, hiding the old general in a storage shed just doesn't sound like "affectionate protection" to Judge Bradley B. Cavedo, who has halted the removal for 10 days.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: SteveO
Date: June 10, 2020 01:11PM
This is great news. Agree 1000%.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: SteveO
Date: June 10, 2020 01:21PM
Quote

But on Monday, Judge Bradley B. Cavedo of Richmond Circuit Court issued the 10-day injunction, citing a lawsuit filed by William C. Gregory, who claims Virginia promised to "faithfully guard" and "affectionately protect" the statue when the land it is located on was annexed by the state in 1890.

Someone should ask the good judge where he gets his horses shoed since he apparently lives in 1890.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: June 10, 2020 01:22PM
Quote
SteveO
Quote

But on Monday, Judge Bradley B. Cavedo of Richmond Circuit Court issued the 10-day injunction, citing a lawsuit filed by William C. Gregory, who claims Virginia promised to "faithfully guard" and "affectionately protect" the statue when the land it is located on was annexed by the state in 1890.

Someone should ask the good judge where he gets his horses shoed since he apparently lives in 1890.

The governor can guard and protect it ardently while it sits in a warehouse.



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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: hal
Date: June 10, 2020 01:24PM
How far do we go with this?

HBO pulls 'Gone with the Wind' but plans to bring it back "with a discussion of its historical context”

I draw the line at pulling 'The night they drove old Dixie down'
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 10, 2020 01:39PM
Imagine if you could travel around Germany and see swastikas and statues honoring Nazi "heroes" everywhere?? You can't thank goodness, because they banned those symbols.

We took the weird position of "honoring" traitors and slave-holders and it's never ended. Not just in the south - these symbols, including street and school names, are everywhere. We're very late to fixing this but we've got to do it.

I applaud HBO's move, but just the sheer volume of media that exists with these types of portrayals - that's a daunting task to address.

But official action: statues on public property, street names, university building names, that type of thing...we can fix that.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 10, 2020 01:41PM
Quote
hal
How far do we go with this?

HBO pulls 'Gone with the Wind' but plans to bring it back "with a discussion of its historical context”

I draw the line at pulling 'The night they drove old Dixie down'

How short is our collective fragility tether that we can't just wait for GWTW to come back in a few days with a splash screen?



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 10, 2020 01:47PM
Quote
SteveO
Quote

But on Monday, Judge Bradley B. Cavedo of Richmond Circuit Court issued the 10-day injunction, citing a lawsuit filed by William C. Gregory, who claims Virginia promised to "faithfully guard" and "affectionately protect" the statue when the land it is located on was annexed by the state in 1890.

Someone should ask the good judge where he gets his horses shoed since he apparently lives in 1890.

I'm so sick of this. When people like William C Gregory are finally dead and gone we can end this BS. I say give the damn thing to Gregory, let him display it at his house.

This monument has been an eye sore for many years because it's covered with graffiti.

In an 18-page complaint filed Monday in Richmond Circuit Court, William C. Gregory, the great-grandson of two signatories of the deed, argues that under the terms of the 1890 agreement and a legislature-approved resolution, the state is supposed to consider the monument and the area around it “perpetually sacred” and “faithfully guard it and affectionately protect it.”

[www.richmond.com]
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: sekker
Date: June 10, 2020 01:48PM
Good - on all these changes.

I grew up and was taught the war fought between 1861-1865 was 'The War Between the States'.

Nevertheless, General Lee was a traitor to his country and his oath. Was clear to me as a 10 year old. So I've always wondered why he was celebrated as a hero. Was and is just racism.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: June 10, 2020 01:50PM
Let's not kid ourselves about how America has sailed on the waves of hatred, especially around the time these statues were being erected.

[www.vox.com]
The following quote from [Woodrow Wilson's book 'A History of the American People"] even made its way into The Birth of a Nation, D.W. Griffith's infamous feature valorizing the K/u K/lux K/lan as saviors of the South:


Lest one think this is a misrepresentation of Wilson's views, The Birth of a Nation actually cut off the most racist part of the first half of the quote:

The white men of the South were aroused by the mere instinct of self-preservation to rid themselves, by fair means or foul, of the intolerable burden of governments sustained by the votes of ignorant negroes and conducted in the interest of adventurers.

And that was only the last of three Wilson quote title cards in the film. This one came first:

[A]dventurers swarmed out of the North, as much the enemies of one race as of the other, to cozen, beguile, and use the Negroes.…In the villages the Negroes were the office holders, men who knew none of the uses of authority, except its insolences.

And then this one:

The Policy of the congressional leaders wrought…a veritable overthrow of civilization in the South.…in their determination to "put the white South under the heel of the black South."

For his part, Wilson lent The Birth of a Nation his approval by screening it at the White House and reportedly telling Griffith that it could "teach history with lightning."
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 10, 2020 02:05PM
In 2016 Princeton's trustees rejected a large student protest and decided not to remove Wilson's name from their School of Public Affairs.

Wilson was a former president of Princeton and very devoted to keeping the school segregated for whites only.

Wilson also was an avowed segregationist. He once said that "the whole temper and tradition of the place are such that no negro has ever applied for admission," according to the committee report. It added that when a black student in 1909 asked about applying, Wilson said "that it is altogether inadvisable for a colored man to enter Princeton."

[www.npr.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2020 02:05PM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 10, 2020 02:22PM
And the carnival barker with his random capitalization has weighed in. He's apparently unaware that the Confederacy lost.

"It has been suggested that we should rename as many as 10 of our Legendary Military Bases, ...these very Powerful Bases have become part of a Great American Heritage, and a history of winning..."
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: SteveO
Date: June 10, 2020 02:24PM
I lived in Memphis 'til I was nearly 6. We moved in 1975. They must've handed out Confederate flags back then like candy. My brother and I had a kid-sized one mounted on a wooden stick that we used to play with when we did "Cowboys and Indians." We never even knew what it meant other than that it was some kind of battle flag. I know that my parents were not aware of the pain behind that flag and what it represented for people of color. They were not native Southerners and that pain was not even taught to my generation, so I know it wasn't to theirs.

My point is that yes, these symbols are everywhere and just casually accepted by most people until only very recent times. There are also 10 military bases named for traitors (er, Confederate generals). Trump has of course said "@#$%&" in his way to renaming them.

I hope the teaching of history also changes. We learned about the Civil War and fortunately my takeaway as a kid in a KC parochial school and large, suburban public high school was the North was basically for freedom, the South was for slavery. Of course it was much more nuanced than that (freedom in the North was a misnomer imo, and I remember we were also taught this to an extent), but many times we hear that students are taught a more sympathetic or even oppressed Southern tale.

I guess that's in line with all the stuff that happened in the early 1900s when these statues went up, and the histories of these vile, torturous traitors were recasting them as "Dignified, extremely respected, intelligent, cultured gentlemen" and the whole BS line of Southern gentility and saintliness. I recall last summer reading about people of this ilk going into Southern national monument tours (plantations, etc) and causing trouble, spouting all kinds of basically pro-South crap. So now we have them and their offspring to deal with for the next several generations. AKA Trumpers.

Sigh. We all need to keep making our voices heard so that real change happens.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2020 02:25PM by SteveO.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: bfd
Date: June 10, 2020 02:54PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
And the carnival barker with his random capitalization has weighed in. He's apparently unaware that the Confederacy lost.

"It has been suggested that we should rename as many as 10 of our Legendary Military Bases, ...these very Powerful Bases have become part of a Great American Heritage, and a history of winning..."


Sorry, Donald…

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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: pdq
Date: June 10, 2020 03:43PM
Quote
hal
How far do we go with this?

HBO pulls 'Gone with the Wind' but plans to bring it back "with a discussion of its historical context”

I draw the line at pulling 'The night they drove old Dixie down'

When I finally saw (some of) the movie when I became an adult, I was frankly shocked at it - the "War of Northern Aggression" (really!?) and the stereotypical depictions of the black characters ("I don't know nuthin bout birthing no babies!" - oh, I see - did they send female slaves to the hospital to have their children?)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 10, 2020 03:51PM
Quote
sekker
Good - on all these changes.

I grew up and was taught the war fought between 1861-1865 was 'The War Between the States'.

Nevertheless, General Lee was a traitor to his country and his oath. Was clear to me as a 10 year old. So I've always wondered why he was celebrated as a hero. Was and is just racism.

It's a testament to the effectiveness of white supremacy to cloak itself that you never got a satisfying answer to this question.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Ted King
Date: June 10, 2020 06:05PM
'Gone With the Wind' is a very well crafted movie. But so is 'Birth of a Nation'. It's fairly natural to be charmed by the craft that went into making those movies, but any feelings of charm should shrivel on consideration of their moral failings.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 10, 2020 06:27PM
My city still has Lee Circle, named after Robert E. Lee, even though his statue was taken down in 2017. We also have many, many streets named after Confederate "heroes", including:

Robert E. Lee Blvd
Jefferson Davis Pkwy
General Ogden St
Beauregard Ave

etc.

[www.nola.com]

... The taking down of the monuments had to be done under cover of night, due to death threats made to the moving companies that were hired to do it.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 10, 2020 06:34PM
If the reaction is that drastic, offer the alternative - blow them up where they stand. That ought to end the tactical removal issue.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 10, 2020 06:50PM
Quote
RgrF
If the reaction is that drastic, offer the alternative - blow them up where they stand. That ought to end the tactical removal issue.

Wasn't going to happen. The removal itself was so controversial that they refused to disclose the locations to where the monuments were being relocated.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 10, 2020 07:06PM
Like the NASCAR decision this has legs and will be around for a long time. If only attitudes could be changed as are statuary locations. The effort to rename Faneuil Hall in Boston, named for a slave trader, has not been successful. Boston was the birthplace of the Abolitionist Movement in this country and yet one of it's best known tourist locations remains dedicated to the very thing they opposed.

It's going to be a long slow slog to change attitudes, a slog that in all likelihood will end up bogged down with less than satisfactory end result.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 10, 2020 08:01PM
Quote
RgrF
Like the NASCAR decision this has legs and will be around for a long time. If only attitudes could be changed as are statuary locations. The effort to rename Faneuil Hall in Boston, named for a slave trader, has not been successful. Boston was the birthplace of the Abolitionist Movement in this country and yet one of it's best known tourist locations remains dedicated to the very thing they opposed.

It's going to be a long slow slog to change attitudes, a slog that in all likelihood will end up bogged down with less than satisfactory end result.

The problem I see is that you can change the names of things (and I'm all for that!), but that doesn't do much to change the underlying attitudes that gave rise to why they were named as they were in the first place. In the case of my current city of residence, I encounter a lot of "but they were Southern heroes and men of honor!" and "but you can't ignore Southern history and tradition!" and "Robert E. Lee was a Southern gentleman!" ... whether or not you want to believe or give credence to any of these attitudes is up to you, but good luck trying to change them.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Thrift Store Scott
Date: June 11, 2020 02:15AM
Quote
pdq
Quote
hal
How far do we go with this?

HBO pulls 'Gone with the Wind' but plans to bring it back "with a discussion of its historical context”

I draw the line at pulling 'The night they drove old Dixie down'

When I finally saw (some of) the movie when I became an adult, I was frankly shocked at it - the "War of Northern Aggression" (really!?)

There are people who refer to the Civil war as such today. There certainly would have been in the 1930s when the book was written and even more at the time of the war itself.

Quote
pdq
and the stereotypical depictions of the black characters ("I don't know nuthin bout birthing no babies!" - oh, I see - did they send female slaves to the hospital to have their children?)

No, but not every female of the time, slave or otherwise, would have had occasion to assist with or even be present at the birth of a child. Such things were usually handled/assisted by a midwife for everyone, black or white. The medicalization of childbirth and the concept of going to a hospital to have a baby didn't catch on until much, much later.

Quote
PeterB
Quote
RgrF
Like the NASCAR decision this has legs and will be around for a long time. If only attitudes could be changed as are statuary locations. The effort to rename Faneuil Hall in Boston, named for a slave trader, has not been successful. Boston was the birthplace of the Abolitionist Movement in this country and yet one of it's best known tourist locations remains dedicated to the very thing they opposed.

It's going to be a long slow slog to change attitudes, a slog that in all likelihood will end up bogged down with less than satisfactory end result.

The problem I see is that you can change the names of things (and I'm all for that!), but that doesn't do much to change the underlying attitudes that gave rise to why they were named as they were in the first place. In the case of my current city of residence, I encounter a lot of "but they were Southern heroes and men of honor!" and "but you can't ignore Southern history and tradition!" and "Robert E. Lee was a Southern gentleman!" ... whether or not you want to believe or give credence to any of these attitudes is up to you, but good luck trying to change them.

Okay, here's the thing: There is a long history in the South of people from up North arriving down here and saying "I love it!" in one breath followed immediately by "Here's a list of things you should change because I say so" with their second breath. That attitude of Even though I just stepped off the bus I already know ten times better than you do what's best for you, whether right or wrong, is seen by Southerners as self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending, and it is apt to make people dig in their heels over issues about which they'd normally be ambivalent at best.



Lie to me if you must, but don't lie to me and insult my intelligence in the same sentence.

Resist the Thought Police: George Orwell's book 1984 was meant as a warning, not an instruction manual.

"Political correctness is just intellectual colonialism and psychological fascism for the creation of thought crime" - Steve Hughes

"I don't see color, I just see ugly" - Joe Jitsukawa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2020 02:16AM by Thrift Store Scott.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Sam3
Date: June 11, 2020 04:45AM
Same thing happened in the Baltics and Eastern Europe after the fall of the Iron Curtain. Former refugees returned to visit and invest, and tried telling the new democracies how they should run their country. Even to this day, western people with Baltic or Slavic heritage are looked at suspiciously when they travel to those countries.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 11, 2020 07:40AM
Quote
Thrift Store Scott
Quote
PeterB
Quote
RgrF
Like the NASCAR decision this has legs and will be around for a long time. If only attitudes could be changed as are statuary locations. The effort to rename Faneuil Hall in Boston, named for a slave trader, has not been successful. Boston was the birthplace of the Abolitionist Movement in this country and yet one of it's best known tourist locations remains dedicated to the very thing they opposed.

It's going to be a long slow slog to change attitudes, a slog that in all likelihood will end up bogged down with less than satisfactory end result.

The problem I see is that you can change the names of things (and I'm all for that!), but that doesn't do much to change the underlying attitudes that gave rise to why they were named as they were in the first place. In the case of my current city of residence, I encounter a lot of "but they were Southern heroes and men of honor!" and "but you can't ignore Southern history and tradition!" and "Robert E. Lee was a Southern gentleman!" ... whether or not you want to believe or give credence to any of these attitudes is up to you, but good luck trying to change them.

Okay, here's the thing: There is a long history in the South of people from up North arriving down here and saying "I love it!" in one breath followed immediately by "Here's a list of things you should change because I say so" with their second breath. That attitude of Even though I just stepped off the bus I already know ten times better than you do what's best for you, whether right or wrong, is seen by Southerners as self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending, and it is apt to make people dig in their heels over issues about which they'd normally be ambivalent at best.

Oh, I'm well aware of it. One of the first things I got called when I moved down here was a carpetbagger. And I noticed almost immediately how much emphasis people down here place on where you're from -- even to the point of to which high school you went. Anyone who's "not from here" is almost immediately discredited and ignored. Extreme provincialism, if you want to call it that.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Thrift Store Scott
Date: June 11, 2020 08:22AM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
Thrift Store Scott
Quote
PeterB
Quote
RgrF
Like the NASCAR decision this has legs and will be around for a long time. If only attitudes could be changed as are statuary locations. The effort to rename Faneuil Hall in Boston, named for a slave trader, has not been successful. Boston was the birthplace of the Abolitionist Movement in this country and yet one of it's best known tourist locations remains dedicated to the very thing they opposed.

It's going to be a long slow slog to change attitudes, a slog that in all likelihood will end up bogged down with less than satisfactory end result.

The problem I see is that you can change the names of things (and I'm all for that!), but that doesn't do much to change the underlying attitudes that gave rise to why they were named as they were in the first place. In the case of my current city of residence, I encounter a lot of "but they were Southern heroes and men of honor!" and "but you can't ignore Southern history and tradition!" and "Robert E. Lee was a Southern gentleman!" ... whether or not you want to believe or give credence to any of these attitudes is up to you, but good luck trying to change them.

Okay, here's the thing: There is a long history in the South of people from up North arriving down here and saying "I love it!" in one breath followed immediately by "Here's a list of things you should change because I say so" with their second breath. That attitude of Even though I just stepped off the bus I already know ten times better than you do what's best for you, whether right or wrong, is seen by Southerners as self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending, and it is apt to make people dig in their heels over issues about which they'd normally be ambivalent at best.

Oh, I'm well aware of it. One of the first things I got called when I moved down here was a carpetbagger. And I noticed almost immediately how much emphasis people down here place on where you're from -- even to the point of to which high school you went. Anyone who's "not from here" is almost immediately discredited and ignored. Extreme provincialism, if you want to call it that.

"Extreme provincialism" is not an inaccurate description, but consider if you will how you'd feel and react if you'd been living comfortably in a house for many years and as soon as a new acquaintance walks through the door they start negatively critiquing everything from the decor to even the layout of your home and telling you all the things you need to do right away to make your house suit their taste.



Lie to me if you must, but don't lie to me and insult my intelligence in the same sentence.

Resist the Thought Police: George Orwell's book 1984 was meant as a warning, not an instruction manual.

"Political correctness is just intellectual colonialism and psychological fascism for the creation of thought crime" - Steve Hughes

"I don't see color, I just see ugly" - Joe Jitsukawa
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 11, 2020 09:00AM
Quote
Thrift Store Scott
.. telling you all the things you need to do right away to make your house suit their taste.

If by “taste” you’re making an analogy with “culture”, it seems an odd analogy when discussing a culture with a history of racism.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 11, 2020 09:46AM
Quote
Thrift Store Scott
Quote
PeterB
Quote
Thrift Store Scott
Quote
PeterB
Quote
RgrF
Like the NASCAR decision this has legs and will be around for a long time. If only attitudes could be changed as are statuary locations. The effort to rename Faneuil Hall in Boston, named for a slave trader, has not been successful. Boston was the birthplace of the Abolitionist Movement in this country and yet one of it's best known tourist locations remains dedicated to the very thing they opposed.

It's going to be a long slow slog to change attitudes, a slog that in all likelihood will end up bogged down with less than satisfactory end result.

The problem I see is that you can change the names of things (and I'm all for that!), but that doesn't do much to change the underlying attitudes that gave rise to why they were named as they were in the first place. In the case of my current city of residence, I encounter a lot of "but they were Southern heroes and men of honor!" and "but you can't ignore Southern history and tradition!" and "Robert E. Lee was a Southern gentleman!" ... whether or not you want to believe or give credence to any of these attitudes is up to you, but good luck trying to change them.

Okay, here's the thing: There is a long history in the South of people from up North arriving down here and saying "I love it!" in one breath followed immediately by "Here's a list of things you should change because I say so" with their second breath. That attitude of Even though I just stepped off the bus I already know ten times better than you do what's best for you, whether right or wrong, is seen by Southerners as self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending, and it is apt to make people dig in their heels over issues about which they'd normally be ambivalent at best.

Oh, I'm well aware of it. One of the first things I got called when I moved down here was a carpetbagger. And I noticed almost immediately how much emphasis people down here place on where you're from -- even to the point of to which high school you went. Anyone who's "not from here" is almost immediately discredited and ignored. Extreme provincialism, if you want to call it that.

"Extreme provincialism" is not an inaccurate description, but consider if you will how you'd feel and react if you'd been living comfortably in a house for many years and as soon as a new acquaintance walks through the door they start negatively critiquing everything from the decor to even the layout of your home and telling you all the things you need to do right away to make your house suit their taste.

Well that's a stereotype too, I would hope most Northerners do not fit that description. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, but there's no question that the locals chafe at any change to their well-established way of life. I was looking for a particular article I'd read about it, but can't now find it-- where the article was discussing the effects of the transplants on the way of life down here, and even just in simple things like the restaurants' menus.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 11, 2020 10:33AM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
RgrF
Like the NASCAR decision this has legs and will be around for a long time. If only attitudes could be changed as are statuary locations. The effort to rename Faneuil Hall in Boston, named for a slave trader, has not been successful. Boston was the birthplace of the Abolitionist Movement in this country and yet one of it's best known tourist locations remains dedicated to the very thing they opposed.

It's going to be a long slow slog to change attitudes, a slog that in all likelihood will end up bogged down with less than satisfactory end result.

The problem I see is that you can change the names of things (and I'm all for that!), but that doesn't do much to change the underlying attitudes that gave rise to why they were named as they were in the first place. In the case of my current city of residence, I encounter a lot of "but they were Southern heroes and men of honor!" and "but you can't ignore Southern history and tradition!" and "Robert E. Lee was a Southern gentleman!" ... whether or not you want to believe or give credence to any of these attitudes is up to you, but good luck trying to change them.

I have zero interest in trying to change the mind of Jim Bubba Bob and that is not the point of this. God, who cares.

The point is that Black Americans should not have to look at monuments to people who enslaved them and supported a system of white supremacy that went on for hundreds of years . Not to mention that they were traitors to our country and deserve no place of honor
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 11, 2020 10:35AM
Quote
Thrift Store Scott


Okay, here's the thing: There is a long history in the South of people from up North arriving down here and saying "I love it!" in one breath followed immediately by "Here's a list of things you should change because I say so" with their second breath. That attitude of Even though I just stepped off the bus I already know ten times better than you do what's best for you, whether right or wrong, is seen by Southerners as self-righteous, arrogant, and condescending, and it is apt to make people dig in their heels over issues about which they'd normally be ambivalent at best.


Southerners want the monuments and flags down and we're taking care of business . Thanks though. The ones who don't can f&ck right off. That's from one loving Southern girl to the others.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2020 10:37AM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 11, 2020 10:59AM
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Lemon Drop
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PeterB
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RgrF
Like the NASCAR decision this has legs and will be around for a long time. If only attitudes could be changed as are statuary locations. The effort to rename Faneuil Hall in Boston, named for a slave trader, has not been successful. Boston was the birthplace of the Abolitionist Movement in this country and yet one of it's best known tourist locations remains dedicated to the very thing they opposed.

It's going to be a long slow slog to change attitudes, a slog that in all likelihood will end up bogged down with less than satisfactory end result.

The problem I see is that you can change the names of things (and I'm all for that!), but that doesn't do much to change the underlying attitudes that gave rise to why they were named as they were in the first place. In the case of my current city of residence, I encounter a lot of "but they were Southern heroes and men of honor!" and "but you can't ignore Southern history and tradition!" and "Robert E. Lee was a Southern gentleman!" ... whether or not you want to believe or give credence to any of these attitudes is up to you, but good luck trying to change them.

I have zero interest in trying to change the mind of Jim Bubba Bob and that is not the point of this. God, who cares.

The point is that Black Americans should not have to look at monuments to people who enslaved them and supported a system of white supremacy that went on for hundreds of years . Not to mention that they were traitors to our country and deserve no place of honor

I agree, I'm just pointing out that you can take down monuments and change the names of things, and it doesn't change the underlying behavior and motivations for why those things were there and named the way they were in the first place. You can say "I don't care" and stick your head in the sand and ignore it (or dismiss the people who feel this way), but ignoring these individuals doesn't make them go away, it just causes them to do their dirty deeds under the table rather than out in the open.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 11, 2020 11:07AM
I agree with your points, PeterB, but you know LD and you can't possibly think that she thinks we shouldn't (or can't) walk and chew antiracist gum at the same time... Yes, we need to do both - remove the lingering symbols of white supremacy that are a constant, aggressive reminder of a public commitment to white supremacy, AND continue naming and contesting the racist ideas and policies that still exist and cause harm. Right?



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 11, 2020 01:27PM
Quote
rjmacs
I agree with your points, PeterB, but you know LD and you can't possibly think that she thinks we shouldn't (or can't) walk and chew antiracist gum at the same time... Yes, we need to do both - remove the lingering symbols of white supremacy that are a constant, aggressive reminder of a public commitment to white supremacy, AND continue naming and contesting the racist ideas and policies that still exist and cause harm. Right?

Yes, of course. I was only pointing out that we need to very seriously examine the underlying causes of the racism, if we're really serious about rooting it out. Obviously, racism isn't something that people are born with, it's taught...




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 11, 2020 01:38PM
Quote
PeterB
Obviously, racism isn't something that people are born with, it's taught...

True dat. The very same can be said about race itself.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 11, 2020 01:45PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
rjmacs
I agree with your points, PeterB, but you know LD and you can't possibly think that she thinks we shouldn't (or can't) walk and chew antiracist gum at the same time... Yes, we need to do both - remove the lingering symbols of white supremacy that are a constant, aggressive reminder of a public commitment to white supremacy, AND continue naming and contesting the racist ideas and policies that still exist and cause harm. Right?

Yes, of course. I was only pointing out that we need to very seriously examine the underlying causes of the racism, if we're really serious about rooting it out. Obviously, racism isn't something that people are born with, it's taught...

After Dylan Roof murdered 9 Black Americans in the pews of their church, and it turned out he was a white supremacist fond of the Conderate flag, Gov. Haley ordered the flag down from all public spaces in the state. Within a short time of that horrific event I noticed a strong decline in the number of people displaying that symbol, on their car, truck, front lawn, shirt, etc. A number of companies including Walmart stopped selling flag merchandise.

It didn't take conversations with Jim Bob or any effort to persuade him, it just took leadership. That's what we need now. Make the changes, the people will follow.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: sekker
Date: June 11, 2020 03:11PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
PeterB
Quote
rjmacs
I agree with your points, PeterB, but you know LD and you can't possibly think that she thinks we shouldn't (or can't) walk and chew antiracist gum at the same time... Yes, we need to do both - remove the lingering symbols of white supremacy that are a constant, aggressive reminder of a public commitment to white supremacy, AND continue naming and contesting the racist ideas and policies that still exist and cause harm. Right?

Yes, of course. I was only pointing out that we need to very seriously examine the underlying causes of the racism, if we're really serious about rooting it out. Obviously, racism isn't something that people are born with, it's taught...

After Dylan Roof murdered 9 Black Americans in the pews of their church, and it turned out he was a white supremacist fond of the Conderate flag, Gov. Haley ordered the flag down from all public spaces in the state. Within a short time of that horrific event I noticed a strong decline in the number of people displaying that symbol, on their car, truck, front lawn, shirt, etc. A number of companies including Walmart stopped selling flag merchandise.

It didn't take conversations with Jim Bob or any effort to persuade him, it just took leadership. That's what we need now. Make the changes, the people will follow.

This. We need to remove the metastatic cancer that's currently in the White House bunker and install a leader who spreads inclusive messages.
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 11, 2020 03:26PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
PeterB
Obviously, racism isn't something that people are born with, it's taught...

True dat. The very same can be said about race itself.

Right, race is a social construct -- but the same folks who perpetuate the concept and of racism are uneducated as far as understanding that, and also of there not really being any biological basis for race. In other words, they're ignorant and don't want to learn.

Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
PeterB
Quote
rjmacs
I agree with your points, PeterB, but you know LD and you can't possibly think that she thinks we shouldn't (or can't) walk and chew antiracist gum at the same time... Yes, we need to do both - remove the lingering symbols of white supremacy that are a constant, aggressive reminder of a public commitment to white supremacy, AND continue naming and contesting the racist ideas and policies that still exist and cause harm. Right?

Yes, of course. I was only pointing out that we need to very seriously examine the underlying causes of the racism, if we're really serious about rooting it out. Obviously, racism isn't something that people are born with, it's taught...

After Dylan Roof murdered 9 Black Americans in the pews of their church, and it turned out he was a white supremacist fond of the Conderate flag, Gov. Haley ordered the flag down from all public spaces in the state. Within a short time of that horrific event I noticed a strong decline in the number of people displaying that symbol, on their car, truck, front lawn, shirt, etc. A number of companies including Walmart stopped selling flag merchandise.

It didn't take conversations with Jim Bob or any effort to persuade him, it just took leadership. That's what we need now. Make the changes, the people will follow.

I agree that leadership is necessary. I just think that -- in the case of the Confederate flag you mentioned -- a number of individuals stopped displaying the symbol not because they understood how offensive it is, and that they really cared about others' feelings, but rather because they decided to "go underground" with their bigotry and hatred. That's what I've been seeing down here in NOLA with removal of the monuments.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 11, 2020 04:07PM
Quote
PeterB
I just think that ... a number of individuals stopped displaying the symbol not because they understood how offensive it is, and that they really cared about others' feelings, but rather because they decided to "go underground" with their bigotry and hatred.

Keep what you like in your closet. If Black people and others can be spared exposure to racist symbols brandished in public, I think that's a compromise worth accepting.

It's not a solution to racism. But it's not worth nixing just because it's not perfect. The mistake is in believing that it is a solution to racism, which produces its own backlash. Walking and chewing antiracist gum - we can do it!



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 11, 2020 04:26PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
PeterB
I just think that ... a number of individuals stopped displaying the symbol not because they understood how offensive it is, and that they really cared about others' feelings, but rather because they decided to "go underground" with their bigotry and hatred.

Keep what you like in your closet. If Black people and others can be spared exposure to racist symbols brandished in public, I think that's a compromise worth accepting.

It's not a solution to racism. But it's not worth nixing just because it's not perfect. The mistake is in believing that it is a solution to racism, which produces its own backlash. Walking and chewing antiracist gum - we can do it!

Oh I don't have anything in my closet -- I'm sure some do though, and the problem is that those folks with something in their closet won't think twice about bringing it back out, should the opportunity present itself.

As I've said, I don't see an issue with working on both fronts. However, expect resistance on both fronts too. Example: [mississippitoday.org]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: June 11, 2020 07:13PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
PeterB
Obviously, racism isn't something that people are born with, it's taught...

True dat. The very same can be said about race itself.

Right, race is a social construct...

OT, or perhaps tangential...

“Race” may be a “social construct”, but one’s genetic heritage can and does have direct physical affects on one’s life.

Examples:

Sickle Cell Disease
“The number of people with the disease in the United States is about one in 5,000, mostly affecting Americans of sub-Saharan African descent. In the United States, about one out of 365 African-American children and one in every 16,300 Hispanic-American children have sickle cell anaemia.”
[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Cleft Lip/Palate
"CL/P occurs more commonly (approximately 1–2/1000 births) and the prevalence varies considerably by ancestral origin with the highest incidence in Asian populations of Asian ancestry followed by European and African populations."
[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]

Hereditary Thrombophilia
"The prevalence is highest in Greece, Sweden, and Lebanon where it approximates 15 percent in some areas. On the other hand, the mutation is apparently not present in African Blacks, Chinese, or Japanese populations"
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: June 12, 2020 06:59AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
PeterB
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
PeterB
Obviously, racism isn't something that people are born with, it's taught...

True dat. The very same can be said about race itself.

Right, race is a social construct...

OT, or perhaps tangential...

“Race” may be a “social construct”, but one’s genetic heritage can and does have direct physical affects on one’s life.

Examples:

Sickle Cell Disease
“The number of people with the disease in the United States is about one in 5,000, mostly affecting Americans of sub-Saharan African descent. In the United States, about one out of 365 African-American children and one in every 16,300 Hispanic-American children have sickle cell anaemia.”
[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Cleft Lip/Palate
"CL/P occurs more commonly (approximately 1–2/1000 births) and the prevalence varies considerably by ancestral origin with the highest incidence in Asian populations of Asian ancestry followed by European and African populations."
[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]

Hereditary Thrombophilia
"The prevalence is highest in Greece, Sweden, and Lebanon where it approximates 15 percent in some areas. On the other hand, the mutation is apparently not present in African Blacks, Chinese, or Japanese populations"
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Race and genetics have nothing to do with one another.

You are talking about genetically distinct populations, which sometimes line up with ethnic groupings. These are absolutely not the same as race, and never have been.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Confederate symbols. Not the main event, but they gotta go
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 12, 2020 09:58AM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
PeterB
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
PeterB
Obviously, racism isn't something that people are born with, it's taught...

True dat. The very same can be said about race itself.

Right, race is a social construct...

OT, or perhaps tangential...

“Race” may be a “social construct”, but one’s genetic heritage can and does have direct physical affects on one’s life.

Examples:

Sickle Cell Disease
“The number of people with the disease in the United States is about one in 5,000, mostly affecting Americans of sub-Saharan African descent. In the United States, about one out of 365 African-American children and one in every 16,300 Hispanic-American children have sickle cell anaemia.”
[en.m.wikipedia.org]

Cleft Lip/Palate
"CL/P occurs more commonly (approximately 1–2/1000 births) and the prevalence varies considerably by ancestral origin with the highest incidence in Asian populations of Asian ancestry followed by European and African populations."
[onlinelibrary.wiley.com]

Hereditary Thrombophilia
"The prevalence is highest in Greece, Sweden, and Lebanon where it approximates 15 percent in some areas. On the other hand, the mutation is apparently not present in African Blacks, Chinese, or Japanese populations"
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Race and genetics have nothing to do with one another.

You are talking about genetically distinct populations, which sometimes line up with ethnic groupings. These are absolutely not the same as race, and never have been.

And to add to that -- you'll notice that the three diseases listed -- just because a mutation is not naturally found in a given population, does NOT mean that someone of that ethnic background cannot have a mutation. Examples:

[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]
[europepmc.org]
[pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]




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