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The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: June 30, 2020 06:48PM
Am I missing something?
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: June 30, 2020 07:01PM
You're not missing anything.

Keep in mind that the state was in danger of losing a lot of money and whatever is left of its reputation had it not made this move. Sports events, etc, had threatened to boycott the state. Money talks.

Symbols are easy. Meaningful change of policies that are vital to people's lives is much more difficult. Removing Confederate symbols helps White people think they're doing something, and I agree 100% that these symbols of treason and enslavement need to go, I just don't want people to confuse it with real progress towards a more equitable society.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: GGD
Date: June 30, 2020 07:25PM
They still need to get through the hard part of introducing a new one that people like. Or else they might wind up reverting.

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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 30, 2020 07:51PM
A change of symbol doesn't necessarily reflect a change of attitude.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: June 30, 2020 07:53PM
The state changing the flag is not the same as the residents changing the flag. It will be years before the current flag goes away. Georgia changed nearly 20 years ago, you can still see it flying along I-95.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: June 30, 2020 08:14PM
Quote
RgrF
A change of symbol doesn't necessarily reflect a change of attitude.

No, but a generation from now a lot of kids will have grown into adults who didn't worship a public symbol of slavery, and recidivistic rejection of foundational human rights and civil liberties.



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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: bfd
Date: June 30, 2020 08:26PM
They simply replace the racist symbolism with religious symbolism on the new flag, (In God We Trust) so it's likely only a small loss of white power in their eyes.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 30, 2020 08:27PM
see nxt post



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2020 08:29PM by RgrF.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: RgrF
Date: June 30, 2020 08:28PM
Quote
Sarcany
Quote
RgrF
A change of symbol doesn't necessarily reflect a change of attitude.

No, but a generation from now a lot of kids will have grown into adults who didn't worship a public symbol of slavery, and recidivistic rejection of foundational human rights and civil liberties.

We thought that back in the day of the Civil Rights Act passage - seems small mindedness and bigotry tend to become family traits.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: PeterB
Date: June 30, 2020 09:20PM
Quote
bfd
They simply replace the racist symbolism with religious symbolism on the new flag, (In God We Trust) so it's likely only a small loss of white power in their eyes.

Quite.

Expect a lot of Mississippians to be flying the current flag for years, maybe decades to come, in defiance of the change. The "In God We Trust" is just icing on the cake to them.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: davester
Date: June 30, 2020 10:26PM
What on earth made them decide that requiring that the new flag contain the words "in god we trust" to the new flag, when it wasn't a feature of the old flag, was a good idea. It's basically saying "We're not allowed to discriminate against the darkies any more but we'll just replace that with discriminating against anyone who's not an evangelical christian:.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: TheCaber
Date: June 30, 2020 10:29PM
Quote
davester
What on earth made them decide that requiring that the new flag contain the words "in god we trust" to the new flag, when it wasn't a feature of the old flag, was a good idea. It's basically saying "We're not allowed to discriminate against the darkies any more but we'll just replace that with discriminating against anyone who's not an evangelical christian:.

...or a worshipper of American currency...



=TC
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 01, 2020 12:55AM
Quote
davester
What on earth made them decide that requiring that the new flag contain the words "in god we trust" to the new flag, when it wasn't a feature of the old flag, was a good idea. It's basically saying "We're not allowed to discriminate against the darkies any more but we'll just replace that with discriminating against anyone who's not an evangelical christian:.

[newsms.fm]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Sam3
Date: July 01, 2020 04:15AM
So much for separation of church and state.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 01, 2020 05:56AM
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: July 01, 2020 06:32AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax

It's not the Jesus people who need to relax.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: rgG
Date: July 01, 2020 08:14AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

Yeah, everyone of all colors hates atheists and agnostics, so that’s ok. sad smiley

Not that I think you meant it that way, but it has always seemed that one of the only groups that almost everyone seems to think it is ok to hate is the anti-religion people.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2020 09:02AM by rgG.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 01, 2020 08:54AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

Uncharacteristically myopic for you LD.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 01, 2020 09:43AM
Quote
Lux Interior
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax

It's not the Jesus people who need to relax.

Truth!
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Sam3
Date: July 01, 2020 09:46AM
Quote
rgG
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

Yeah, everyone of all colors hates atheists and agnostics, so that’s ok. sad smiley

Not that I think you meant it that way, but it has always seemed that one of the only groups that almost everyone seems to think it is ok to hate is the anti-religion people.

After them come the "false religion" people - pagan, wicca, etc.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 01, 2020 09:47AM
Quote
rgG
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

Yeah, everyone of all colors hates atheists and agnostics, so that’s ok. sad smiley

Not that I think you meant it that way, but it has always seemed that one of the only groups that almost everyone seems to think it is ok to hate is the anti-religion people.

You've got me backwards I think. I don't "hate" anti-religion people. I don't love Jesus freaks. I'm annoyed by both, because at this moment in history we've got way more serious problems than words on a flag or bumper sticker or coin, words that anyone can easily ignore and that are not symbols of treason or hate.

If someone is bothered by that I think they need more coffee.

I've always been for separation of church and state.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: sekker
Date: July 01, 2020 09:48AM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

My wife, a Catholic religious education teacher, and I watched the recording of the announcement and signing by the Governor of Mississippi. Even she felt the religious focus was emphasized far too much. But I suppose not a lot of practicing Hindus in Mississippi!
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 01, 2020 09:49AM
Quote
sekker
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

My wife, a Catholic religious education teacher, and I watched the recording of the announcement and signing by the Governor of Mississippi. Even she felt the religious focus was emphasized far too much. But I suppose not a lot of practicing Hindus in Mississippi!

have you ever been to the South?

I feel like people are speaking from other planets sometimes. Please.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: July 01, 2020 10:23AM
Quote
rgG
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

Yeah, everyone of all colors hates atheists and agnostics, so that’s ok. sad smiley

Not that I think you meant it that way, but it has always seemed that one of the only groups that almost everyone seems to think it is ok to hate is the anti-religion people.

I oppose religious discrimination against believing and non-believing people alike. You are right that non-believing people are subject to unjust prejudice in our society.

However, police have not been observed routinely abusing and murdering atheists because of their non-belief and escaping all accountability.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 01, 2020 10:55AM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
rgG
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

Yeah, everyone of all colors hates atheists and agnostics, so that’s ok. sad smiley

Not that I think you meant it that way, but it has always seemed that one of the only groups that almost everyone seems to think it is ok to hate is the anti-religion people.

I oppose religious discrimination against believing and non-believing people alike. You are right that non-believing people are subject to unjust prejudice in our society.

However, police have not been observed routinely abusing and murdering atheists because of their non-belief and escaping all accountability.

True. At the same time, it makes no sense to put "In God We Trust" on anything official in the US, since not everyone is a believer, and the Founding Fathers themselves were firmly on the side of separation of church and state. The argument that "this is a Christian nation" just doesn't fly. Have no doubts about the origin of the phrase.

[www.washingtonpost.com]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: July 01, 2020 11:03AM
I'm with you, PeterB. I'm prioritizing other harms right now, but I endorse your efforts to keep God out of government symbology.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 01, 2020 02:29PM
I've spent the last 45 years of my life as an atheist - In God we Trust is a non-issue to me. It doesn't hurt me and makes others feel secure, so why get your briefs in bunch.

Further, God is just the English word for Allah. The various Hindu deities are all Gods as well. Wiccans believe in The God, other beliefs have their own terms but God can pretty much apply to any religious belief.

I'll trade a flag of hate for In God we Trust any day.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: sekker
Date: July 01, 2020 04:34PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
sekker
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

My wife, a Catholic religious education teacher, and I watched the recording of the announcement and signing by the Governor of Mississippi. Even she felt the religious focus was emphasized far too much. But I suppose not a lot of practicing Hindus in Mississippi!

have you ever been to the South?

I feel like people are speaking from other planets sometimes. Please.

I grew up in schools where the textbooks taught the fight between 1861-1865 was 'The War Between The States', I lived through the first Black child enrolling in my public school and the school board resigning over it. As a white person, I've lived in poverty myself and experienced many of the challenges of growing up with no health care.

I am fully committed to my Catholic community, though I was not raised Catholic. And the current Mississippi governor did a good thing this week. But his emphasis and insisting on 'In God We Trust' is still marginalizing people, and I do not think it's out of line to say so.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 01, 2020 05:08PM
Quote
Ombligo
I've spent the last 45 years of my life as an atheist - In God we Trust is a non-issue to me. It doesn't hurt me and makes others feel secure, so why get your briefs in bunch.

Further, God is just the English word for Allah. The various Hindu deities are all Gods as well. Wiccans believe in The God, other beliefs have their own terms but God can pretty much apply to any religious belief.

I'll trade a flag of hate for In God we Trust any day.

In theory/principle, I agree with you, but I disagree with you in practice. The issue I have with it is that various acts of hate have been committed in the name of God (or whatever deity/deities) sure enough as in the name of anything else. When you believe in a supernatural deity or deities, you can justify just about anything in the name of faith. Religion has no place in government, and we don't live in a theocracy. "In God We Trust" is an excuse for some of those who might call themselves Christians to justify their religious/moral leanings as applying to everyone, when they don't.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2020 05:10PM by PeterB.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 01, 2020 06:12PM
Quote
sekker
I grew up in schools where the textbooks taught the fight between 1861-1865 was 'The War Between The States',

Just last week I saw that wording posted on a war veterans memorial at a fairly new Georgia Rest Stop on I-95. It was listing POW deaths in each of the wars fought by the US. Incidentally, the "War between the States" listing had the North and the Confederacy on separate lines.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: July 01, 2020 09:17PM
Time for a change to 'In Allah We Trust'.


(I mean, it's the same thing, isn't it?)
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 01, 2020 10:06PM
Quote
Steve G.
Time for a change to 'In Allah We Trust'.


(I mean, it's the same thing, isn't it?)

Well played!
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Sam3
Date: July 02, 2020 03:38AM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Steve G.
Time for a change to 'In Allah We Trust'.


(I mean, it's the same thing, isn't it?)

Well played!

Some Christian sects... er... denominations would say no, it is not the same entity. They would say Allah is a false god made up to lure people away from the one, true God.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: July 02, 2020 11:47AM
God is just the English word for a supreme being, other languages have other words for the same concept. In Arabic that word is Allah, but there are many ranging from Alla in Maltese to Xudo in Uzbek. Hebrew has many words with Yahweh and Jehovah being the most well known.

They are all words given by Man to verbalize a concept.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: July 02, 2020 12:43PM
Quote
sekker
Quote
Lemon Drop
Quote
sekker
Quote
Lemon Drop
Jesus people, relax
Blacks in Mississippi are more religious than Whites and are fine with In God we Trust on the flag. Nobody is forcing you to go to church, get over it. We've got much bigger problems.

My wife, a Catholic religious education teacher, and I watched the recording of the announcement and signing by the Governor of Mississippi. Even she felt the religious focus was emphasized far too much. But I suppose not a lot of practicing Hindus in Mississippi!

have you ever been to the South?

I feel like people are speaking from other planets sometimes. Please.

I grew up in schools where the textbooks taught the fight between 1861-1865 was 'The War Between The States', I lived through the first Black child enrolling in my public school and the school board resigning over it. As a white person, I've lived in poverty myself and experienced many of the challenges of growing up with no health care.

I am fully committed to my Catholic community, though I was not raised Catholic. And the current Mississippi governor did a good thing this week. But his emphasis and insisting on 'In God We Trust' is still marginalizing people, and I do not think it's out of line to say so.

I agree with you. Thanks for sharing that about your life.
I overreacted, and I apologize.

Public expressions of religious belief are ordinary here in the South. I worry about it when it happens where it can do harm, such as teachers discriminating against children based on faith, or employers, or doctors, etc. I don't think that behavior is as widespread as some might suspect. People understand the limits, in general.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: July 02, 2020 01:19PM
Quote
Lemon Drop
People understand the limits, in general.

Current events would appear to indicate otherwise.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 02, 2020 01:32PM
Quote
Ombligo
God is just the English word for a supreme being, other languages have other words for the same concept. In Arabic that word is Allah, but there are many ranging from Alla in Maltese to Xudo in Uzbek. Hebrew has many words with Yahweh and Jehovah being the most well known.

They are all words given by Man to verbalize a concept.

The problem with this argument is exactly the point that was made earlier.

Try putting "In Allah We Trust" or "In Yahweh We Trust" on the state flag, the currency, etc., and watch how quickly it'll get hollered down with yells of "your god is not my God!"

Each religion believes that their god(s) is/are the ONLY god(s), and will try to convert others to their view(s). The only exception I can think of to this, as far as religions/faiths go, is the Quakers ... who have historically been very tolerant of other religions.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: July 02, 2020 04:04PM
Quote
Sam3

Some Christian sects... er... denominations would say no, it is not the same entity. They would say Allah is a false god made up to lure people away from the one, true God.

Wait, I thought the Christian God is three different guys...who are somehow the same...or something.
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Re: The Mississippi state flag change sure wen smoother than I thought it would.
Posted by: Sam3
Date: July 03, 2020 03:29AM
Quote
Steve G.
Quote
Sam3

Some Christian sects... er... denominations would say no, it is not the same entity. They would say Allah is a false god made up to lure people away from the one, true God.

Wait, I thought the Christian God is three different guys...who are somehow the same...or something.

Well, yeah, that too.

Many bloody battles, executions and assassinations happened over that concept.

PeterB, pagans are fairly tolerant of other religions. It's mostly the three Abrahamic religions that say that their supreme being is the only one and all others are false.



The arts are not luxuries but assets that give way more than they cost.
--Ronald Tucker on YouTube

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.
--Frank Zappa
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