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Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: August 04, 2020 12:29PM
I was listening to the Texas news on the radio and they were talking to people about a school proposing to drop its Robert E. Lee name. One of the idiots in favor of keeping the name said something about preserving tradition and the Robert E. Lee was a proud man who bravely served his country.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: August 04, 2020 12:40PM
He was a proud man, and he bravely served his country, the Confederate States of America. That country lost its failed war for independence and was reestablished as part of the United State of America, the country that Robert E. Lee betrayed through his proud service to his country.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: vision63
Date: August 04, 2020 12:51PM
Quote
rjmacs
He was a proud man, and he bravely served his country, the Confederate States of America. That country lost its failed war for independence and was reestablished as part of the United State of America, the country that Robert E. Lee betrayed through his proud service to his country.

If I were to argue on behalf of Lee, I'd say that before the Civil War, he and the rest of the Northern Generals bravely served the brutal westward expansion of Manifest Destiny. Wiping out Native Americans and brutally stealing Mexican land holdings.

See? When you're down to your last defense, you gotta throw everybody in the pot. Rename everything or nothing!!

secret smiley v63. Agent provocateur.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: rgG
Date: August 04, 2020 01:00PM
Lincoln offered Lee the command of the Union Army, but he chose Virginia over the Union. He picked his side, and his side lost.

Arlington is his memorial.

Arlington House, The Robert E. Lee Memorial, formerly named the Custis-Lee Mansion,[5][6] is a Greek revival style mansion located in Arlington, Virginia, United States that was once the home of Confederate Army General Robert E. Lee. During the American Civil War, the grounds of the mansion were selected as the site of Arlington National Cemetery, in part to ensure that Lee would never again be able to return to his home. The United States has since designated the mansion as a National Memorial.

I think the Union was pretty clear how they felt about his choice.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2020 01:01PM by rgG.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 04, 2020 05:18PM
I defy you to show an example of any human who is perfect. 2 minute old babies don't count. Never spoken a cross word, never had a thought in anger and acted it out, never done anything negative. Ever.

Good Luck.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: sekker
Date: August 04, 2020 05:22PM
Quote
Racer X
I defy you to show an example of any human who is perfect. 2 minute old babies don't count. Never spoken a cross word, never had a thought in anger and acted it out, never done anything negative. Ever.

Good Luck.

Mr. Lee knew EXACTLY the choice he was making. And we now know there was not any decent second commander waiting in the wings on the side of the Confederacy.

His single choice - which is textbook treason - kept the South going far longer than any other single decision.

Burn his entire legacy down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2020 05:23PM by sekker.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: deckeda
Date: August 04, 2020 05:31PM
I’m confused. Why would a grown adult only be held to the same standard as a toddler baby?

Oh, wait ... nevermind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2020 05:31PM by deckeda.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: rgG
Date: August 04, 2020 05:55PM
Quote
Racer X
I defy you to show an example of any human who is perfect. 2 minute old babies don't count. Never spoken a cross word, never had a thought in anger and acted it out, never done anything negative. Ever.

Good Luck.

First, I was educated in the South.
I was told what an honorable man RE Lee was. By all accounts he was a very good military commander and I believe he was one of only a few people to graduate from West Point with no demerits, so that says something about his character, too. He supposedly said he couldn’t fight and kill his brothers in Virginia, as to why he couldn’t lead the Union troops. If that’s the case, and he didn’t really support the breaking up of the Union, why not sit out the war as a conscientious objector?
If you can’t kill your brothers in VA, how can you lead the southern army and kill your brothers in other states?





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 04, 2020 06:07PM
Lee kept a journal, and wrote his wife often. It isn't until you read them, in his own words, about his thoughts, deeds and actions, that you can have a better understanding about him.

I'm not defending his actions. But who he was as a person.

Any textbook you read, and lecture you listen to, and rant you hear, will be biased in some way. Go to the source.

For the record, my "father's" family had numerous who fought for the North, as Illinois volunteers. I still have one's "kit"



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2020 06:09PM by Racer X.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: rgG
Date: August 04, 2020 06:42PM
Quote
Racer X
Lee kept a journal, and wrote his wife often. It isn't until you read them, in his own words, about his thoughts, deeds and actions, that you can have a better understanding about him.

I'm not defending his actions. But who he was as a person.

Any textbook you read, and lecture you listen to, and rant you hear, will be biased in some way. Go to the source.

For the record, my "father's" family had numerous who fought for the North, as Illinois volunteers. I still have one's "kit"

As I said, he seemed to be a person of character, but he still made the biggest mistake of his life and he should not be memorialized as a hero.
What would have been the outcome if he had prevailed?
If he had led the Union troops, by most accounts, the war would have been far shorter and thousands of lives, on both sides would have been saved. That might be called heroic.
And, for what it is worth, I had at least one long dead relative that fought for the wrong side. sad smiley





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2020 06:50PM by rgG.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: August 04, 2020 06:52PM
Did he feel more of a Virginian than an American?
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: August 04, 2020 07:31PM
Quote
Dennis S
Did he feel more of a Virginian than an American?


Actually at that time is history most individuals felt a greater loyalty to the state rather than the Federal government. You were a Virginian (or any other state) before you were an "American." It wasn't until after the war that states became subserviant to the overall country.

Only a handful of Union generals were from the South despite the prewar military leadership being overrepresented by southern men. Returning to your home state was expected and understood to be the gentleman thing to do.

Should they be held up as heroes? no, but one should also understand the time period that dictated their decision process



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: August 04, 2020 08:20PM
He's responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of loyal Americans. Lee's murderous treason is written in the blood of patriots.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: sekker
Date: August 04, 2020 08:22PM
Quote
Ombligo
Quote
Dennis S
Did he feel more of a Virginian than an American?


Actually at that time is history most individuals felt a greater loyalty to the state rather than the Federal government. You were a Virginian (or any other state) before you were an "American." It wasn't until after the war that states became subserviant to the overall country.

Only a handful of Union generals were from the South despite the prewar military leadership being overrepresented by southern men. Returning to your home state was expected and understood to be the gentleman thing to do.

Should they be held up as heroes? no, but one should also understand the time period that dictated their decision process

I was raised with Southern US history, and the War Between the States.

Lee knew exactly the decision he was making, and he expected to be killed as a traitor.

Sorry, he had the power to completely change the path of the war and save hundreds of thousands of lives.

Loyalty - even then - was still to the Constitution first.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: August 04, 2020 09:08PM
He was loyal to a Confederacy dedicated and dependent on slavery. They lost the war. I don't know of many statues of General Sir Henry Clinton.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 04, 2020 09:49PM
Possibly one of the biggest reasons for the Civil War was the argument over States Rights vs Federal Rights. We still argue over this today. The subject at hand was slavery. The disagreement was over who had the right to decide the issue.

Our Founding Fathers were all treasonous. Just saying.

And so are the majority of our elected officials. They swore to uphold the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. By not standing up with a unified voice and saying ENOUGH!, they are all commiting treason.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: August 04, 2020 09:55PM
congratulations, you have just in effect defended slavery.

Also, you seem to miss that your 'philosophically opposed' Southerners tried to leave the U.S.A., fired on Fort Sumter and mounted huge armies that killed hundreds of thousands of loyal Americans.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: deckeda
Date: August 04, 2020 10:50PM
LOL “states rights” was an excuse to rationalize, and every Confederate knew it. Not “one of” the reasons, THE reason. We literally have the text that outlines what they fought for.

The whataboutism for all Founding Fathers being “treasonous” and-so-are-the-current-elected-officials-as-well is curious at best. The Edit button is your friend.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: sekker
Date: August 04, 2020 10:56PM
Let’s be very clear here. Mr Robert E Lee knew exactly what he was doing joining the Confederate Army. He was very smart.

He was not as complex as we were led to believe. He had wealth from slaves and went to war to defend his way of life.

He had another choice. He could have accepted Lincoln’s offer and honored his Oath to the Constitution. He was a graduate of West Point. This isn’t some random dude.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 04, 2020 11:40PM
He swore an oath to defend the US Constitution, he violated that oath. Today he could be a member of Congress.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 05, 2020 04:17AM
"The Civil War in the United States began in 1861, after decades of simmering tensions between northern and southern states over slavery, states’ rights and westward expansion. " [www.history.com]

"What led to the outbreak of the bloodiest conflict in the history of North America?

A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery.

In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that system that was central to the conflict.

A key issue was states' rights.

The Southern states wanted to assert their authority over the federal government so they could abolish federal laws they didn't support, especially laws interfering with the South's right to keep slaves and take them wherever they wished.

Another factor was territorial expansion.

The South wished to take slavery into the western territories, while the North was committed to keeping them open to white labor alone.

Meanwhile, the newly formed Republican party, whose members were strongly opposed to the westward expansion of slavery into new states, was gaining prominence." [www.pbs.org]

"In 2011, at the outset of the sesquicentennial, a Pew Research Center poll found that Americans were significantly divided on the issue, with 48% saying the war was "mainly about states' rights," 38% saying the war was "mainly about slavery," with the remainder answering "both equally" or "neither/don't know."
[www.battlefields.org]

"One method by which to analyze this historical conflict is to focus on primary sources. Every state in the Confederacy issued an “Article of Secession” declaring their break from the Union. Four states went further. Texas, Mississippi, Georgia and South Carolina all issued additional documents, usually referred to as the “Declarations of Causes," which explain their decision to leave the Union. The documents can be found in their entirety here.

Two major themes emerge in these documents: slavery and states' rights. All four states strongly defend slavery while making varying claims related to states' rights. Other grievances, such as economic exploitation and the role of the military, receive limited attention in some of the documents. This article will present, in detail, everything that was said in the Declarations of Causes pertaining to these topics."

[www.battlefields.org]



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2020 07:37AM by Racer X.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 05, 2020 04:44AM
Quote
RgrF
He swore an oath to defend the US Constitution, he violated that oath.

What part of that do you see as being not true?
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 05, 2020 07:39AM
No idea as to the Oath as it was worded 150+ years ago. I would love to see how it has evolved, or not, since the formation of the country.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: August 05, 2020 07:58AM
Quote
Ombligo
Quote
Dennis S
Did he feel more of a Virginian than an American?


Actually at that time is history most individuals felt a greater loyalty to the state rather than the Federal government. You were a Virginian (or any other state) before you were an "American." It wasn't until after the war that states became subserviant to the overall country.

Only a handful of Union generals were from the South despite the prewar military leadership being overrepresented by southern men. Returning to your home state was expected and understood to be the gentleman thing to do.

Should they be held up as heroes? no, but one should also understand the time period that dictated their decision process

Yep, antebellum there was no concept of "United States" as we think of it today.

Which is not surprising considering the difficulties of travel outside one's state...with no transcontinental railroad one could sail from NY to England and back in less time than it took to travel one-way from NY to San Fransisco.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 05, 2020 08:08AM
all enemies, foreign or domestic concept didn't get added until 1862, AFTER the Civil War started. [history.army.mil] July 2, 1862 to be exact.

May, 13, 1884 was when the specif phrase became "against all enemies, foreign or domestic;"

I would assume the US Military would have good historical records. I can even find the enlistment records, and mustering out records for "my" great great grandfather online.

"My" father's mother was a noted self-taught Civil War historian. She was a guest lecturer at a number of institutions over her life. There was a time that she had a "banker's box" full of original Mathew Brady Daguerreotypes. During one of the moves while her husband was still in the Army, they were lost. I still am sad about this, even though it happened before I was born.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2020 08:15AM by Racer X.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: sekker
Date: August 05, 2020 08:53AM
Here is what I've found on what Robert E. Lee swore when he joined West Point:

"I, Robert E. Lee, a cadet born in the State of Virginia, aged 18 years and 9 months, do hereby acknowledge to have this day voluntarily engaged with the consent of my mother to serve in the Army of the United States for a period of five years, unless sooner discharged by proper authority. And I do promise upon honor that I will observe and obey the orders of the officers appointed over me, the rules and articles of war, and the regulations which have been or may hereafter be established for the government of the Military Academy." [Douglas S. Freeman, R. E. Lee: A Biography, Vol. 1, page 51]"

All of this history re-writing that he had split loyalty is totally bogus. This was obvious to me as a 10 year old 'learning' in public schools that 1861-65 was all about 'State Rights.' It was ALWAYS about maintaining the social framework built on slavery.

This was an inevitable conflict then - it kept getting punted down the road, decade after decade (ie. Missouri compromise where we added both free and slave-holding states). But the moral compass had changed globally - the writing was on the wall for decades, too.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 05, 2020 09:26AM
In addition to his treason against the United States, Robert E Lee treated the enslaved people he owned in a very brutal manner. What Southerners (including myself) were taught about his character is a myth.

[www.theatlantic.com]

Memorials are for specific honorable acts by a person, not an homage to their total character.** The memorials to Lee are for his leadership in the Civil War, but that effort was treason. There should be no memorials to traitors of our country. Memorials should reflect our values; treason and white supremacy are not American values.

Confederate memorials in the South were part of an effort to re-write history and to cement white supremacy, to create this idea that the Confederate's fight was about states' rights in some heroic way, not just about slavery. We know this is a false narrative.

Taking these memorials down is a good step towards telling our history in a way that is more honest. And more honorable.


**This is why I'm OK with memorials to Washington and Jefferson, among others who also unfortunately were slave-owners. They are memorialized due to their leadership of the young United States. We just need to make sure that the rest of their complicated stories are told, with honesty. It's the only way to understand who we are as a country and how we got to where we are now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2020 09:29AM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: PeterB
Date: August 05, 2020 10:12AM
To me, the praise of REL has, and will always be, rooted in the Lost Cause.

That's why removal of the Confederate monuments (for example, in my own city) has been such a contentious debate. Claims of "Southern heritage/history" are just bogus ... just a smokescreen for outright racism and refusal to admit that their side lost.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: rgG
Date: August 05, 2020 11:17AM
Quote
PeterB
To me, the praise of REL has, and will always be, rooted in the Lost Cause.

That's why removal of the Confederate monuments (for example, in my own city) has been such a contentious debate. Claims of "Southern heritage/history" are just bogus ... just a smokescreen for outright racism and refusal to admit that their side lost.

I think it isn’t so much the refusal to admit the South lost, but the refusal to admit the South was WRONG, that is the crux of the problem.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: btfc
Date: August 05, 2020 11:29AM
The oath taken at West Point in the mid 1800s (pre Civil War):

"I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."



‘ Robert E. Lee Wasn't a Hero, He Was a Traitor ‘

[historynewsnetwork.org]
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: deckeda
Date: August 05, 2020 12:29PM
Quote
rgG
Quote
PeterB
To me, the praise of REL has, and will always be, rooted in the Lost Cause.

That's why removal of the Confederate monuments (for example, in my own city) has been such a contentious debate. Claims of "Southern heritage/history" are just bogus ... just a smokescreen for outright racism and refusal to admit that their side lost.

I think it isn’t so much the refusal to admit the South lost, but the refusal to admit the South was WRONG, that is the crux of the problem.

Precisely. It’s American Exceptionalism, and the attitude that Americans enjoy hard protections against criticism have been used for all sorts of excesses and excuses. People are so individually smart that they don’t benefit from leadership. Let the states figure out COVID-19. They know best. Let kids get religious education and call it the equivalent (no, better!) of secular education. Parents know best. Don’t tell anyone something is wrong; it’s persecution, slavery, socialism to have an ounce of central leadership that can benefit society.

Do Germans typically say, “Yeah, pops was an SS officer, but that’s my family and so, I have pride.” Here, it’s all mealy mouth proclamations. “Yeah, pops fought for the South, and since it’s what he believed in and was known to be a loving father and husband etc I respect that and fly that flag on my truck. But I’m not racist because of X,Y, and Z.”

We breed apologists here. Defensive ones, who can offer nothing beyond excuses and whataboutism.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: PeterB
Date: August 05, 2020 01:51PM
Quote
rgG
Quote
PeterB
To me, the praise of REL has, and will always be, rooted in the Lost Cause.

That's why removal of the Confederate monuments (for example, in my own city) has been such a contentious debate. Claims of "Southern heritage/history" are just bogus ... just a smokescreen for outright racism and refusal to admit that their side lost.

I think it isn’t so much the refusal to admit the South lost, but the refusal to admit the South was WRONG, that is the crux of the problem.

True enough, but it seems both of them are currently actively at play. The refusal to admit that they were wrong, means that taking down the monuments is viewed with disdain; the refusal to admit that they lost, leads to things like death threats against the companies taking the monuments down, the formation of neo-Confederate groups, and even continuing calls for secession. [www.splcenter.org] ... they're still living in 1862.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: JoeH
Date: August 05, 2020 01:51PM
Quote
btfc
The oath taken at West Point in the mid 1800s (pre Civil War):

"I, _____, appointed a _____ in the Army of the United States, do solemnly swear, or affirm, that I will bear true allegiance to the United States of America, and that I will serve them honestly and faithfully against all their enemies or opposers whatsoever, and observe and obey the orders of the President of the United States, and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the rules and articles for the government of the Armies of the United States."



‘ Robert E. Lee Wasn't a Hero, He Was a Traitor ‘

[historynewsnetwork.org]

What were any additional oaths taken upon being commissioned as an officer?

What some overlook is that he had been an officer in the regular US Army, not the VA militia before the Civil War. I can find mention of his last oath as an officer in the US Army was in March 1861 when he was promoted to Colonel to head up the 1st Calvary. No exact text found so far, but one source lists that it included "to preserve the Union". He resigned in April after stating a desire to sit out the war to his mentor, Gen. Scott.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 05, 2020 02:34PM
Yes, mustering out or resigning. Oath no longer in effect. If he re-upped, you re-affirm the oath. If he were still in the US Army, Lincoln would have just issued orders. I don't believe the reactivating of a commission was a thing back then, or Lincoln would likely have done that as well.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: sekker
Date: August 05, 2020 03:07PM
I do not understand why this is complicated. 'Resigning' and then taking a NEW oath/signing a new contract to a new Commander in Chief means he was 1) Either a Traitor to the USA or 2) a Man Without A Country and was a mercenary.

There really is no middle ground here.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: deckeda
Date: August 05, 2020 05:21PM
It’s desired that you remember the resignation from the U.S. Army but less so the commission to the Confederate Army.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: btfc
Date: August 05, 2020 06:32PM
JoeH;

The source I found listed that as the oath that would have been taken upon graduation circa 1840; Lee’s time at West Point was at least a decade earlier, and I’ve seen no direct evidence to show that Lee ever took that exact oath.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 05, 2020 07:01PM
Nitpicking aside, he turned against and then waged war on his own country - if that doesn't define the word traitor, what does?
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: deckeda
Date: August 05, 2020 08:55PM
If any doubt may be secured as to an absolute decrepitude = not a traitor. That’s apparently the standard.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: RgrF
Date: August 05, 2020 09:10PM
If any doubt may be secured as to an absolute decrepitude* = not a traitor. That’s apparently the standard.

*No need to get personal dec
whine smiley
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: August 06, 2020 06:50AM
Quote
RgrF
Nitpicking aside, he turned against and then waged war on his own country - if that doesn't define the word traitor, what does?

so by your definition everyone who supported the American Revolution was a traitor of the same magnitude as Lee and every other confederate.

Lee was wrong and should not be hailed as a hero (but should be studied as an effective military leader, same as Rommel and Yamamoto) - I'm not disputing that. However it is a mistake to apply current standards to history, those standards did not exist at that time. At some point in the future what we consider proper and correct, even progressive, will be looked upon as oppressive or immoral.

Lee is complicated, he was Virginian loyalist who opposed the states secesion. He also believed that states had the right to seceed as it was not forbidden in the Constitution. His family owned slaves, but he did not and seemed to be opposed to slavery in general. In 1856 he wrote that "slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages.”

However he also saw it as temporarily beneficial to the slaves during there maturation and assimilation into American society. "The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things"

Lee, along with 38 others were charged with treason in 1865. Those charges were all dropped in 1869 when it became apparent that the prosecution would lose the case against Jefferson Davis.

I want to reiterate that I am not excusing Lee, he was wrong and should not be exaulted as a hero. My intent is to better understand the man and his times before condemning him. History does not occur in a vacuum, it is often like an ivy vine (Kudzu in this case), intertwined and stubbornly attached in numerous locations.



“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2020 06:52AM by Ombligo.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: rgG
Date: August 06, 2020 07:49AM
Synopsis: study the man as a great general, but don’t honor him as a hero in the country he fought against, as O said.

Edit: remember, you still have that HUGE rock called Stone Mountain that has his 90 foot tall image on the side, but that is another discussion.





Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2020 07:52AM by rgG.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: pdq
Date: August 06, 2020 08:59AM
Quote
Ombligo
His family owned slaves, but he did not.

The American Civil War Museum calls this a myth:

Quote

Robert E. Lee personally owned slaves that he inherited upon the death of his mother, Ann Lee, in 1829. Following the death of his father-in-law, George Washington Parke Custis, in 1857, Lee assumed command of 189 enslaved people, working the estates of Arlington, White House, and Romancoke.

The AP fact checker also says this claim is false:

Quote

Between owning a handful of slaves from his own family and then managing his father-in-law’s 200 slaves, Lee was very, very involved with slavery during his life up until the end of 1862

He may have viewed slavery as an institution with disdain, but it does appear he owned slaves.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: August 06, 2020 12:54PM
Quote
Racer X
Yes, mustering out or resigning. Oath no longer in effect. If he re-upped, you re-affirm the oath. If he were still in the US Army, Lincoln would have just issued orders. I don't believe the reactivating of a commission was a thing back then, or Lincoln would likely have done that as well.

It's astonishing to me to what degree people will go to defend the integrity of a man who, after much reflection, decided that the perpetuation of chattel slavery in his nation was a greater priority than the preservation of the nation that raised, trained, and rewarded him.

The depth of commitment to white supremacy ineluctably required to make such a conscious, reflective choice - a choice that cost more lives than all other American wars combined, before and after - is immeasurable. How you can emphasize such a man's integrity is beyond me.

It's galling to anyone of conscience.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 06, 2020 01:37PM
I'm not emphasizing his integrity, nor defending his choice. I'm simply pointing out the fact that he was not in the Union Army when he chose to fight for the South. He was no longer bound by whatever Federal oath he took back in the 1830's ish.

Based on what I know, and what I have cited, he was playing by the rules in effect, when he made those decisions. Our Founding Fathers did a very similar thing 90 years earlier. Refused taxes, refused to be ruled by England because they weren't allowed to have any say in their destiny. But England gave up. We won. We exist.

So. Who's up for desecrating sacred national civil war cemataries? National Monuments? Lets dynamite Jefferson and Washington off Mt Rushmore. Pull down half the statues at Gettysburg (it is a sacred National Park and Cemetery). Pretty sure we need to dig up and move Arlington, it WAS Lee's plantation. Gotta get rid of Monticello too.

There is not a period of history anywhere on the planet were some people weren't screwed by others.

Yeah, if there is a statue of a Confederate standing on the back of a kneeling slave so he can mount his horse, yeah, VERY bad taste. Certainly offensive to many.

Gotta scrap NASA, got their beginnings from Nazi scientist and collaborators. Operation Paperclip anyone?

How far do we need to go so everyone is happy, because it isn't going to happen, ever.

And if you are alluding to me being a white supremacist, that's ludicrous and very offensive. Why would I volunteer to go to the public schools I did, and write essays so I could visit in a small group with Coretta Scott King twice?



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2020 01:40PM by Racer X.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: August 06, 2020 02:55PM
Quote
Racer X
I'm not emphasizing his integrity, nor defending his choice. I'm simply pointing out the fact that he was not in the Union Army when he chose to fight for the South. He was no longer bound by whatever Federal oath he took back in the 1830's ish.

Based on what I know, and what I have cited, he was playing by the rules in effect, when he made those decisions. Our Founding Fathers did a very similar thing 90 years earlier. Refused taxes, refused to be ruled by England because they weren't allowed to have any say in their destiny. But England gave up. We won. We exist.

So. Who's up for desecrating sacred national civil war cemataries? National Monuments? Lets dynamite Jefferson and Washington off Mt Rushmore. Pull down half the statues at Gettysburg (it is a sacred National Park and Cemetery). Pretty sure we need to dig up and move Arlington, it WAS Lee's plantation. Gotta get rid of Monticello too.

There is not a period of history anywhere on the planet were some people weren't screwed by others.

Yeah, if there is a statue of a Confederate standing on the back of a kneeling slave so he can mount his horse, yeah, VERY bad taste. Certainly offensive to many.

Gotta scrap NASA, got their beginnings from Nazi scientist and collaborators. Operation Paperclip anyone?

How far do we need to go so everyone is happy, because it isn't going to happen, ever.

And if you are alluding to me being a white supremacist, that's ludicrous and very offensive. Why would I volunteer to go to the public schools I did, and write essays so I could visit in a small group with Coretta Scott King twice?

- False equivalence

- Slippery slope

- False analogy

etc.
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: Rolando
Date: August 07, 2020 12:11AM
I agree that Lee, like ALL others who served the CSA, were traitors, bu there WAS a middle ground he could have taken.

He could have sat out the war. He didn't.

He chose.



San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater
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Re: Robert E. Lee bravely served his country
Posted by: JoeH
Date: August 07, 2020 01:15AM
Quote
Rolando
I agree that Lee, like ALL others who served the CSA, were traitors, bu there WAS a middle ground he could have taken.

He could have sat out the war. He didn't.

He chose.

Yep, in fact sitting out the war is what he said he was going to do when he resigned his commission, that he didn't want to fight his fellow brothers in arms from VA. Then turned around and took up arms against his former comrades from his days in the US Army a few months later.
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