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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: samintx
Date: August 06, 2020 06:07AM
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Lemon Drop
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davester
The best example of cancel culture is when someone responding to a question says "That's a nasty question, you're fake news!"


I can't wait to have a real President again.


AMEN AMEN
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 06, 2020 06:56AM
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numbered
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Lemon Drop
We can't know what really went on there, but Shor's former employer, Civis, denies that his firing had anything to do with that tweet:

You linked to the Mounk article in the Atlantic, but did you read it? It is unlike you to accept a credulous explanation from a company's management. A subsequent paragraph from a staff member at the firm:

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One Civis employee, who requested anonymity for fear of professional repercussions, told me, the only reason for the firing “that was communicated that I heard were the client and staff reactions to the tweet.” The employee also said that at “our company-wide meeting after Shor’s firing blew up on Twitter, [CEO] Dan [Wagner] said something along the lines of freedom of speech is important, but he had to take a stand with our staff, clients, and people of color.”

Moreover, the point Chait made in the piece I linked was that a group LISTSERV dumped Shor as well. And when you dive in to his sin, you come back to the idea that it is "racist" to even mention violent protest.

There is a recurring motif on the left extreme: it has become dangerous to complain, even indirectly, about anything that touches on people who have been historically wronged. It has nothing to do with ignoring or being unsupportive or attacking. It is, instead, the Leninist idea that if you are not completely in line you are a counter-revolutionary. Trotskyists need not apply.


Of course I read the article. We don't know why Shor was fired. That's really all. It's not unusual for fired people to play the victim. You can choose to accept his version, or not. I have no opinion on it and don't consider it important.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 06, 2020 07:12AM
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Marc Anthony
The phrase can be a meaningless buzzword, but cancel culture is ultimately another term for revisionism—often with a political basis. Someone will always be offended about something and many people don’t consider context, resulting in a perceived insult or injustice. Take, for example, the Indian woman illustration previously on the Land O’ Lakes packaging. A lot of (mostly white) people decried this as being a caricature and even conflated it with sexual abuse. The original artist for the depiction was Native American, and created the work to foster cultural pride.


After reading this article, I got a very different impression of that situation v. what you presented:
[www.smithsonianmag.com]

The original logo was created by a Caucasian man in the 1920s. In general, American Indians were not thrilled to be used as a corporate mascot in this way and were pleased with the company's change. The image was revised a bit by a male tribal member in the 1950 and that man's son now says it was good to remove Mia as the Land o Lakes mascot. Overall - discontinuing the use of tribal people as mascots is viewed as very positive in the tribal community.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 06, 2020 07:40AM
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Ted King
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Ted I read your comment late last night. I really appreciated your perspective and agree with you that this is very much a situation where our own values will color our opinions, and that each situation deserves an independent look. And indeed - free speech has its limits.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 06, 2020 07:57AM
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Sarcany
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Lemon Drop
This is that accusation, corroborated by two other women: :
[www.politico.com]

The Politico story was discredited. It took quotes out of context.

Discredited by whom? Al Franken? He denies that particular accusation.

I would have preferred that he allow a Congressional ethics investigation rather than resigning, but he chose the latter. The attacks on his accusers have the same flavor as attacks on other women who accuse powerful men. I would rather see an approach that is fair to both accuser and accused.

Men like Franken need to learn to treat women with the same respect that they apparently have for men. No men have alleged that Franken grabbed their butts while they were photographed together. He did not have a habit of kissing men on the lips when meeting them, something he had to be told not to do by a campaign adviser. He took too long to learn self-control. And respect.

I think the Democratic party got a lot stronger after Franken resigned.
It was an important shift away from hypocrisy.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: August 06, 2020 08:24AM
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Lemon Drop
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Sarcany
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Lemon Drop
This is that accusation, corroborated by two other women: :
[www.politico.com]

The Politico story was discredited. It took quotes out of context.

Discredited by whom? Al Franken? He denies that particular accusation.

I would have preferred that he allow a Congressional ethics investigation rather than resigning, but he chose the latter. The attacks on his accusers have the same flavor as attacks on other women who accuse powerful men. I would rather see an approach that is fair to both accuser and accused.

If you're going to ignore the entirety of the article that I linked to, you should put a disclaimer of willful ignorance at the top of your post.



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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: pdq
Date: August 06, 2020 08:39AM
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Lemon Drop
I would have preferred that he allow a Congressional ethics investigation rather than resigning, but he chose the latter.

He welcomed an ethics investigation from the very beginning. It was his colleagues (like Gillebrand) that would not let the normal process play out and insisted he resign without bothering with an actual investigation. And he fell on his sword.

Men like Franken” is a comment that makes me believe you also felt further investigation of these claims was unnecessary.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Ted King
Date: August 06, 2020 10:35AM
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Lemon Drop
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Ted King
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Ted I read your comment late last night. I really appreciated your perspective and agree with you that this is very much a situation where our own values will color our opinions, and that each situation deserves an independent look. And indeed - free speech has its limits.

Thanks.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 06, 2020 12:30PM
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pdq
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Lemon Drop
I would have preferred that he allow a Congressional ethics investigation rather than resigning, but he chose the latter.

He welcomed an ethics investigation from the very beginning. It was his colleagues (like Gillebrand) that would not let the normal process play out and insisted he resign without bothering with an actual investigation. And he fell on his sword.

Men like Franken” is a comment that makes me believe you also felt further investigation of these claims was unnecessary.



There is no question of Franken's creepy, sexist behavior. He admits it himself. His denials are around situations that are more like criminal behavior.

He could have stayed and faced an investigation but chose not to. He did not have to accede to Gillibrand's request that he resign. It was his free choice. And he chose resignation, not investigation.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 06, 2020 12:52PM
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Sarcany
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Lemon Drop
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Sarcany
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Lemon Drop
This is that accusation, corroborated by two other women: :
[www.politico.com]

The Politico story was discredited. It took quotes out of context.

Discredited by whom? Al Franken? He denies that particular accusation.

I would have preferred that he allow a Congressional ethics investigation rather than resigning, but he chose the latter. The attacks on his accusers have the same flavor as attacks on other women who accuse powerful men. I would rather see an approach that is fair to both accuser and accused.

If you're going to ignore the entirety of the article that I linked to, you should put a disclaimer of willful ignorance at the top of your post.


I'm not ignoring anything. I'm very familiar with Jane Mayer's lame attempt to rehab Al Franken. Remember it well from when it was first published. I lost a lot of respect for Jane Mayer after reading that.

She did point out discrepancies with the LA radio woman's story, though none of her revelations were new, and that is not the thing that cost Franken his Senate seat. Just because a woman does certain things as a performance, it doesn't make it OK to assault her. Franken was confused about that, apparently.

Mayer's main thesis is "there are people who don't think that Franken's a creep, and he has not assaulted every woman he's ever met."

Well OK then.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: August 06, 2020 01:54PM
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Lemon Drop
Mayer's main thesis is "there are people who don't think that Franken's a creep, and he has not assaulted every woman he's ever met."

You still haven't bothered to read it.

Her thesis is that the timing of the allegations were what screwed him over with Weinstein in the headlines.



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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: August 06, 2020 02:06PM
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Sarcany
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Lemon Drop
Mayer's main thesis is "there are people who don't think that Franken's a creep, and he has not assaulted every woman he's ever met."

You still haven't bothered to read it.

Her thesis is that the timing of the allegations were what screwed him over with Weinstein in the headlines.

Think whatever wrong things you want - here's me talking about reading the Mayer piece when it was published a year ago:
[forums.macresource.com]


There is no benefit to rehashing this thing, did you learn anything new or change any point of view? I certainly did not.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: August 06, 2020 02:08PM
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Lemon Drop
There is no benefit to rehashing this thing, did you learn anything new or change any point of view? I certainly did not.

It's not all about you.



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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Marc Anthony
Date: August 06, 2020 05:30PM
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Lemon Drop
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Marc Anthony
...original artist for the depiction was Native American, and created the work to foster cultural pride.


After reading this article, I got a very different impression of that situation v. what you presented:
[www.smithsonianmag.com]

The original logo was created by a Caucasian man in the 1920s. In general, American Indians were not thrilled to be used as a corporate mascot in this way and were pleased with the company's change. The image was revised a bit by a male tribal member in the 1950 and that man's son now says it was good to remove Mia as the Land o Lakes mascot. Overall - discontinuing the use of tribal people as mascots is viewed as very positive in the tribal community.

I appear to be incorrect about the image's source, although the 1950 edits were by an Indian artist who found pride in the image, which is clear in the Smithsonian article. The quote from the article you posted saying it was 'good' to remove the image is from a curator. In his own words, the son disclaims the image was a stereotype, and he was disturbed that's how some people ever perceived it.



Le poète doit vivre beaucoup, vivre dans tous les sens. - Verlaine



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/06/2020 05:34PM by Marc Anthony.
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 06, 2020 05:44PM
Fair is just a concept. It doesn't actually exist. My parents taught me that about the time I hit middle school. I couldn't go to a Styx concert, because my mom didn't like their name. Minister's daughter. No logic, just feelings. She overheard them from my cassette player a year later on a road trip, and liked them. Pointing it out would have been pointless.

The loudest crowd usually wins, especially if it hurts the bottom line. I can think of several comedies where "persons of color" wore white face, pretending to be caucasion. Nothing but crickets on that. I understand it doesn't have the visceral or demeaning undertones, but, it is the other side of the same coin.

That was then, this is now. In the penal system, people are given the benefit of the doubt that they have learned their lesson and can try and move on with their lives, but no one else can?



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: What is "cancel culture?"
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: August 07, 2020 02:10PM
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Racer X
That was then, this is now. In the penal system, people are given the benefit of the doubt that they have learned their lesson and can try and move on with their lives, but no one else can?

Your comment belies the reality of a criminal legal system that does nothing of the sort.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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