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Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dakota
Date: December 04, 2008 08:39AM
Proving once more that the best ideas come from ordinary people. You've heard this mantra not to worry, government will get back its investment in car companies many times over. Of course, no one will ever see a cent of those "profits". So this guy calls in and says OK, then send ME my stock certificates. Don't keep it FOR me. The government is perfectly capable of mailing out checks, why not this? I thought it was a brilliant idea.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: DevoBill
Date: December 04, 2008 08:51AM
Along this line I would like to sell my steak in the Washington monument and Yellowstone Park.




I want ambiguity, or possibly something else.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: December 04, 2008 08:58AM
You would need a health department certificate to do that. Actually health department certificates--one from DC and one from Wyoming.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: mattkime
Date: December 04, 2008 08:59AM




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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: voodoopenguin
Date: December 04, 2008 09:21AM
Quote
DevoBill
Along this line I would like to sell my steak in the Washington monument and Yellowstone Park.

You must always quote things as otherwise they can go back and edit the error and your joke falls flat.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: mattkime
Date: December 04, 2008 09:23AM
why do you think there was a misteak?



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: lafinfil
Date: December 04, 2008 09:27AM
OK - I guess I'm just plain dense here

What again is the idea ? Or did you mean quip ?



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 09:27AM
Finally, a topic with some meat to it.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: billb
Date: December 04, 2008 09:48AM
The Monument and the Park are both purportedly good hunting grounds.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dakota
Date: December 04, 2008 10:19AM
Really engaging debate. I was blaming the politicians. You guys aren't much better.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 10:32AM
First of all, your OP was based on an incorrect "fact", because sometimes these bailouts do work out and the government does get paid back, probably more often than you think.
[www.propublica.org]

Second of all, everyone keeps coming up with these "send us the check", "send us the stocks", "send us the money" mantras. There was nothing new or original to comment upon there.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: billb
Date: December 04, 2008 10:37AM
Was the guy who called in ( this was a radio talk show ?) Joe the Stock certificate holder ?

Sorry, but it would seem that according to what some claim our future tax program will be would mean those being bailed out will be paying all the taxes to pay for the bail out.
The rest of us are just worker ants maintaining the nest. No stocks for us. (not even in our 401 K s) :-)
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dakota
Date: December 04, 2008 10:51AM
Quote
$tevie
First of all, your OP was based on an incorrect "fact", because sometimes these bailouts do work out and the government does get paid back, probably more often than you think.
[www.propublica.org]

Second of all, everyone keeps coming up with these "send us the check", "send us the stocks", "send us the money" mantras. There was nothing new or original to comment upon there.

You are done ranting? I am still waiting to hear why it is a bad idea.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 10:55AM
Ranting? I gave you a link showing that bailouts do not necessarily lose money for the taxpayers. Did you read it?

Giving everyone stock in the companies is a childish idea and you must in your heart know that. Just processing the enormous amount of information needed to fulfill that, and then mailing them, will cost as much as the bailout will. Get real.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: lafinfil
Date: December 04, 2008 11:25AM
Please please help me here -

How does giving out stock certificates to individuals bail out the auto industry ?

This is the "idea" that I took away from your post.

Did read it correctly ? If so please explain how it works for those of us that are a little slow.

I'm open to an idea that will work.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: December 04, 2008 11:27AM
What would you do with your three shares of Chrysler? Sell them for about three cents, that's what. What good would that do besides allow you to vent your spleen on the auto companies?

There are a lot of businesses that depend on the auto companies. See the above thread on metals. The Port of Baltimore is second only to the Port of New York in exported autos and tops in European imports.

I don't see the purpose in hurting millions of American workers to satisfy someone's desire to punish the auto companies and their executives.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dakota
Date: December 04, 2008 12:41PM
Quote
$tevie
Ranting? I gave you a link showing that bailouts do not necessarily lose money for the taxpayers. Did you read it?

Giving everyone stock in the companies is a childish idea and you must in your heart know that. Just processing the enormous amount of information needed to fulfill that, and then mailing them, will cost as much as the bailout will. Get real.

You still are not addressing the merit of the proposal. I am not debating that it is not a money making opportunity. My point is why let the congress keep the gains and spend it on likes of acorn, which they tried to sneak it by las time? Government mailed millions of stimulus checks. Did you object to that or worry about how much it costs to process them?
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: kj
Date: December 04, 2008 12:43PM
I wonder how many of those in favor of the bailout have owned a gm car in the last 10yrs. How many ever will? I bet not many.

>>>I don't see the purpose in hurting millions of American workers to satisfy someone's desire to punish the auto companies and their executives.

I'm not convinced that GM has a future. I think others see the same things I do, and that's why they wonder how wise it is to sink a lot of money into it. I don't think it has anything to do with punishing anyone. In the long run, it might be better for people if GM dies, or at least gets flogged beyond recognition. kj.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 12:46PM
It cost a bomb to mail those checks, don't you remember? And as a matter of fact I was on record as calling that a gimmick and a bribe. I blew the money like everyone else but it was still a stupid idea and here we are with the economy in the crapper DESPITE those dumb checks.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2008 12:49PM by $tevie.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 12:48PM
Quote
Dakota
Quote
$tevie
Ranting? I gave you a link showing that bailouts do not necessarily lose money for the taxpayers. Did you read it?

Giving everyone stock in the companies is a childish idea and you must in your heart know that. Just processing the enormous amount of information needed to fulfill that, and then mailing them, will cost as much as the bailout will. Get real.

You still are not addressing the merit of the proposal. I am not debating that it is not a money making opportunity. My point is why let the congress keep the gains and spend it on likes of acorn, which they tried to sneak it by las time? Government mailed millions of stimulus checks. Did you object to that or worry about how much it costs to process them?

I am not addressing the merit because there is none. You are just trying to express the same old right wing lament that Congress is profligate with money and your imaginary concept that somehow US citizens are all frugal with theirs.

And what about the people that currently hold stock in GM? Do you just tell them to go eff themselves or what?

This is just more BS from people who resent thinking that anyone is getting something for nothing, yet have never complained about Halliburton's free ride on our nickel at all. It's political BS.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2008 12:53PM by $tevie.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dakota
Date: December 04, 2008 12:49PM
Quote
lafinfil
Please please help me here -

How does giving out stock certificates to individuals bail out the auto industry ?

This is the "idea" that I took away from your post.

Did read it correctly ? If so please explain how it works for those of us that are a little slow.

I'm open to an idea that will work.

Ask GM to issue new stocks which the government buys in exchange for the funds. If this is truly "people's" investment and not a piggy back for the congress, mail them out to the taxpayers. They know where we live. What is so hard about that? And Gutenberg, it is not three shares. 25 billion buys 55 GM shares per taxpayer, and they don't have to sell them for three cents either. Isn't it your argument that they will be worth many folds? How many sides of the argument can you be at the same time?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2008 12:51PM by Dakota.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: kj
Date: December 04, 2008 12:52PM
Quote
$tevie
It cost a bomb to mail those checks, don't you remember?

I think what he's wondering is how we know we're getting our money back? Even if the car makers pay back the gov't, that doesn't mean we ever get OUR money back. I'm not advocating the check thing, but I sure get his point. We're not getting that money back. kj.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Greg the dogsitter
Date: December 04, 2008 12:53PM
Quote
Dakota
Quote
lafinfil
Please please help me here -

How does giving out stock certificates to individuals bail out the auto industry ?

This is the "idea" that I took away from your post.

Did read it correctly ? If so please explain how it works for those of us that are a little slow.

I'm open to an idea that will work.

This is a simple minded answer. Ask GM to issue new stocks which the government buys in exchange of the funds. If this is truly "people's" investment and not a piggy back for the congress, mail them out to taxpayers. They know where we live. What is so hard about that? And Gutenberg, it is not three shares. 25 billion buys 55 GM shares per taxpayer, and they don't have to sell them for three cents. Isn't it your argument that they will be worth many folds more? How many sides of the argument can you be at the same time?

Do you insult people like this in real life, too?
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 12:54PM
Quote
Greg the dogsitter
Do you insult people like this in real life, too?

I do. angry villagers smiley



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 12:56PM
You seem to have this idea that this is going to turn into some sort of subsidy (once again the ACORN nonsense rears its head) for unworthy people. Same old broken record from the dittoheads.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Greg the dogsitter
Date: December 04, 2008 12:57PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
Greg the dogsitter
Do you insult people like this in real life, too?

I do. angry villagers smiley

Well, yeah...you do, sure. Because you have villagers with you.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 12:57PM
Quote
$tevie
You seem to have this idea that this is going to turn into some sort of subsidy (once again the ACORN nonsense rears its head) for unworthy people. Same old broken record from the dittoheads.

Just remember, those awful ACORN people will own shares right along with you, as will their swarthy compadres.

I am tired of this sort of veiled bigotry.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: kj
Date: December 04, 2008 12:57PM
Quote
$tevie
It cost a bomb to mail those checks, don't you remember? And as a matter of fact I was on record as calling that a gimmick and a bribe. I blew the money like everyone else but it was still a stupid idea and here we are with the economy in the crapper DESPITE those dumb checks.

Which is why it's disappointing that's one of the first things Obama's going to do. kj.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 12:58PM
Quote
Greg the dogsitter
Quote
$tevie
Quote
Greg the dogsitter
Do you insult people like this in real life, too?

I do. angry villagers smiley

Well, yeah...you do, sure. Because you have villagers with you.

smileys with beer



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 12:59PM
Quote
kj
Quote
$tevie
It cost a bomb to mail those checks, don't you remember? And as a matter of fact I was on record as calling that a gimmick and a bribe. I blew the money like everyone else but it was still a stupid idea and here we are with the economy in the crapper DESPITE those dumb checks.

Which is why it's disappointing that's one of the first things Obama's going to do. kj.

It is for me, but I am hoping that this time it will be part of a larger more comprehensive Plan as opposed to a naked bribe. I expect it will be. We shall see.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: December 04, 2008 01:09PM
I stand by my premise that distributing stock certificates will result in nothing much more than premature sales of the stock, driving the price down and decapitalizing the company. That should not be the point of trying to save the company.

As far as simply letting the company fail, the collateral damage is too severe to contemplate.

I have owned nothing but GM cars in the last ten years. They have been fine cars. I liked them much better than the Toyotas I owned before them. The Toyotas cost me money every time I turned around, it seemed. Exhaust, temperature control, body rust, cracked engine block, etc. etc. etc. Nothing but trouble.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Greg the dogsitter
Date: December 04, 2008 01:11PM
Quote
$tevie
Quote
$tevie
You seem to have this idea that this is going to turn into some sort of subsidy (once again the ACORN nonsense rears its head) for unworthy people. Same old broken record from the dittoheads.

Just remember, those awful ACORN people will own shares right along with you, as will their swarthy compadres.

I am tired of this sort of veiled bigotry.

Did you just accuse yourself of being bigoted in a quoted post?

:-)
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: billb
Date: December 04, 2008 01:16PM
The government is giving them credit that doesn't exist.

Unless each individual taxpayer is actually ponying up the dollars to purchase these shares the tax payer is buying absolutely nothing. There is nothing to "give back".
It'll be your great great grandkids who pay for any non returned bonds.
You want shares you can buy them right now.
Government doesn't have to hold your hand.


My previous vehicle to my current one was a Pontiac Grand Am. 340,000 miles.
Gave it to a nephew for school, he traded it in on a Miata when he graduated and started working.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2008 01:19PM by billb.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: kj
Date: December 04, 2008 01:30PM
Quote
Gutenberg
I have owned nothing but GM cars in the last ten years. They have been fine cars. I liked them much better than the Toyotas I owned before them. The Toyotas cost me money every time I turned around, it seemed. Exhaust, temperature control, body rust, cracked engine block, etc. etc. etc. Nothing but trouble.

That's cool. You put your money where your mouth is. It sounds like you really do think it's a sound investment. And it could be. kj.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: December 04, 2008 01:37PM
The government "bailouts" are odious enough, but apparently necessary. But, we shouldn't take another another step toward more government entanglement in private enterprise by issuing stock certificates.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: December 04, 2008 01:53PM
kj, the 2008 Cobalt I bought in May cost me $13,788, and it came pretty loaded. Cruise control, AC, automatic transmission, keyless remote, a little jack for my iPod, side airbags. I could not have gotten a comparable Japanese car for the price. I don't blame people for passing over GM cars because they were so horrible in the 70s and 80s but they're competitive now.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dakota
Date: December 04, 2008 03:00PM
Quote
Dennis S
The government "bailouts" are odious enough, but apparently necessary. But, we shouldn't take another another step toward more government entanglement in private enterprise by issuing stock certificates.

How does government buying GM stocks and then promptly divesting itself from them is entanglement? Buying and keeping shares, the way they did with some banks, is entanglement. Would you buy stocks in your brokers name hoping that he will return capital gains to you?
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: kj
Date: December 04, 2008 03:13PM
Quote
Gutenberg
kj, the 2008 Cobalt I bought in May cost me $13,788, and it came pretty loaded. Cruise control, AC, automatic transmission, keyless remote, a little jack for my iPod, side airbags. I could not have gotten a comparable Japanese car for the price. I don't blame people for passing over GM cars because they were so horrible in the 70s and 80s but they're competitive now.

Can't argue with that. I drove two rental Malibus, which I think are very similar cars to the cobalt (epsilon platform?) and they were nice, solid feeling cars. I liked the one with the smaller engine better though (the v6 made it a pig). And even if they are less reliable, you can make a lot of repairs for a few thousand. kj.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: December 04, 2008 03:14PM
Issuing stock certificates is even MORE entanglement. Enough is enough.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: lafinfil
Date: December 04, 2008 03:31PM
So is it cheaper to mail these stocks than the checks you were complaining about mailing ?

I'm still working on the cost benefit analysis



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dakota
Date: December 04, 2008 04:01PM
Quote
lafinfil
So is it cheaper to mail these stocks than the checks you were complaining about mailing ?

I'm still working on the cost benefit analysis

I can't believe we are arguing about a $25 billion bail out and you are hung up on postage. If you don't like it just say it. Since I have not heard a single worthy argument against this proposal (posting pictures of meat does not count)I consider case closed. Stock certificates will go out tomorrow.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: JoeH
Date: December 04, 2008 04:21PM
How many million do you think it will take to send out all those certificates? Given that they usually do not do that anymore, most issuers of stock certificates charge a fee of $15-25 or more and do not make money on it. For the government in the kind of volume you are talking about they may discount it a bit. You are talking about sending out 100 million or more certificates. They have to be registered to keep track of ownership as well. That is more cost. Then every time a stockholder vote comes up, each holder needs to be notified. More cost. It is not just the cost of postage, but even that is supposed to be higher due to the requirement of using Registered Mail to track them and their delivery.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: lafinfil
Date: December 04, 2008 04:22PM
And I haven't heard a single worthy argument for it - just your opinion

What is the cost to set up and administer the program ?
(printing, accounting , letter to tell me that it's coming etc ... ?

Will I be taxed on it ?
What if I don't want it - am I forced to take it ?
How soon can I cash it in ?
What is the value if the market is flooded with GM stock ?
If the government no longer holds the stock as a block as a major shareholder how to they maintain financial control ?

Need a few more facts if you are serious about this being a solution.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: TLB
Date: December 04, 2008 04:23PM
If the government buys the stock on the open market, the stock price will spike and continue to rise as the government tries to scoop up the shares. If the government requires the issue of new shares, it will severely dilute and devalue the existing issues. Both sound bad to me.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Gutenberg
Date: December 04, 2008 04:34PM
How about the cost of setting up brokerage accounts for a bunch of people who don't have accounts? Will I be charged a maintenance fee? What if I want nothing to do with GM stock?

I think this is one of those ideas that sounds OK till you start thinking about the details.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: $tevie
Date: December 04, 2008 05:01PM
Quote
Dakota
Quote
lafinfil
So is it cheaper to mail these stocks than the checks you were complaining about mailing ?

I'm still working on the cost benefit analysis

I can't believe we are arguing about a $25 billion bail out and you are hung up on postage. If you don't like it just say it. Since I have not heard a single worthy argument against this proposal (posting pictures of meat does not count)I consider case closed. Stock certificates will go out tomorrow.

We've given plenty of reasons against. You, on the other hand, have offered nothing except your opinion that this idea is "brilliant" with absolutely no explanation of what, exactly, makes it brilliant. It's hilarious that you want people to give you detailed explanations when all you've posted has been complaints that people aren't acting the way you wish they would.



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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: December 04, 2008 05:01PM
"I think this is one of those ideas that sounds OK till you start thinking about the details."

You mean "half-baked?"
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: MacGurl
Date: December 04, 2008 05:34PM
Quote
Dennis S

You mean "half-baked?"

All of this talk about steak and potatoes ! I'm hungry!









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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: Dakota
Date: December 04, 2008 07:46PM
Listen guys. I don't claim to know how to administer the program. That is for the bureaucrats. The same ones who can find you and audit you or mail out millions of refund, stimulus and social security checks can find a way to do this too. Why does it have to be any harder than buying stocks online and then getting reimbursed somehow? You think this is a crazy idea. There is a bill in congress to use $300 billion in bail out money to pay for every dime you pay in taxes for 6 months, including payroll tax.
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Re: Now THIS is how you bail out GM
Posted by: karsen
Date: December 04, 2008 07:58PM
Sorry I'm late. Is there any steak left?



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