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The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: cassie
Date: March 29, 2006 04:21PM
Both sets of my grandparents came through Ellis Island to become AMERICANS!...NOT to continue to be what they were prior to coming here.

My grandparents expected only the freedom to do what's right and the opportunity to work and build a future. They were poor but filled with optimism once given the privilege to enter America. No one gave them special rights, looked the other way, printed everything in their language, taught in their language, etc.

In short, my grandparent did things on the up and up, learned English, worked hard and became American Citizens.

Every male in our family has since served in the military to defend our country. Both grandfathers served in Vietnam as line soldiers and my dad is back in Iraq. One grandmother became a school teacher and the other became a civic leader...local president of several local organizations after starting at the bottom. My mom is a registered nurse. In each case, no one gave them anything other than the chance to make the most of being an American.

So, it's not surprising that my grandparents are outraged that any immigrant would carry anything other than an American Flag or protest when they are illegally here.

My family lived in the Canal Zone prior to it's turn over. We had many Panamanian friends and became very close. My Catholic Schoolmates helped me learn Spanish. We had (and still do) a special bond with our Central American hosts and I miss them to this day.

I am proud to be Catholic but I am ashamed of what some in the church are doing...people like Cardinal Mahony who is urging illegals to violate our laws.

NOW TO THE POINT

After the recent protests, it is very clear that illegals have contempt for us, our laws and our way of life.

Signs proclaiming Americans as racist pigs, our leaders (Dems and Rep) as terrorists, carrying foreign and communist flags; etc, only emphasizes these sneak-ins' disdain for the people and country that they supposedly want to be a part of.

It is so apparent that many of these illegals don't really want to be Americans, they just want to use America and bring it down to where they came from.

I ask that we start organizing counter demonstrations today...290 Million Legal Americans vs 11 million illegals.

Legals SÍ, Sneak-ins NO!

It’s OUR VOTE that congress should worry about.

Call your congressmen NOW...before it’s too late!

cassie


BTW: Try these on for size:

< [educationwonk.blogspot.com];
"...student literally wrap himself in the Mexican flag..."

[www.dallasnews.com]
Mexican American flies US Flag beneath Mexican Flag at his home in Texas

[cryptome.quintessenz.at]
A Mexican Manual for Illegal Migrants...

[www.latimes.com]
Poll: Does waving the Mexican flag help or hurt the protesters' cause?

[www.carryingcapacity.org]
Which Flag to Fly on the Fourth?

[www.latimes.com]
As high school senior Saul Corona protested proposed immigration reforms in front of Los Angeles City Hall on Monday, he did so with a Mexican flag on his head.

[www.breitbart.com]
'Today we march, tomorrow we vote'

[www.greggarrison.com]
THE RE-CONQUEST OF AMERICA
"...no such thing as illegal immigration by Mexicans, because California, Arizona and New Mexico (Texas too, I assume) are all really Mexican territory anyway."

[www.latimes.com]
How DJs Put 500,000 Marchers in Motion

[www.team4news.com]
Immigrant advocates claim victory

[www.realclearpolitics.com]
Guests or Gate Crashers?
"...What if bank robbers who were caught were simply told to give the money back and not do it again? What if murderers who were caught were turned loose and warned not to kill again? Would that be proof that it is futile to take action, when no action was taken?..."

[www.mercurynews.com]
Mexico cheers passage of immigration bill

<[www.quinnipiac.edu] University Hamden, Connecticut >
Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Most U.S. Voters Say Cut Benefits

[www.kristv.com]
Spanish-language media play key role in immigrant rallies

[washingtontimes.com]
Concern high over immigration

[www.humaneventsonline.com]
Illegal Aliens: Just Mobbing the Streets Americans Won't Mob

"... prove how ridiculously out of control our federal government has let the problem get. Which is worse -- that a half million immigration criminals and their descendants and sympathizers can be found in a single American city, or that the current immigration enforcement system is such a joke that the half million have nothing to fear from openly entering the public streets and arguing against legislation currently before Congress?"

"It’s as if thieves thought they could form a union to lobby for fewer cops."






















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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 05:26PM
Bush has declared to the world that he is above the law, any law, even treaties which our Constitution declare the highest law of the land.

And you expect others to obey the law, or even respect us? We are the world's #1 terrorist state. How can a Mexican American be proud of his adopted country as long as monsters rule it? As bad as Mexico is they may feel that country is a better role model in the world and at least isn't beating up on people that have not attacked them, and trying to steal their oil.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 05:58PM
cassie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both sets of my grandparents came through Ellis
> Island to become AMERICANS!...NOT to continue to
> be what they were prior to coming here.

So did they learn to speak Algonquin or Lakota?
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Ruby Begonia
Date: March 29, 2006 06:43PM

What gets me is how long do you think law abiding good
Americans are going to be taxed to pay for this illegal
invasion? Disgusting.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: SteveJobs
Date: March 29, 2006 07:03PM
I like the people. Don't like the two languages. But, I'm trying to learn spanish to edumacate myself. They should not invade us, of course. We should protect our borders. And arrest people that hire/hide/allow them to fake their way in.

Why don't we just make Mexico the 51st state? That way once the roads and security are improved, I'd LOVE to drive down there.



******************************

******************************
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 29, 2006 08:01PM
Ruby Begonia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > What gets me is how long do you think law
> abiding good
> Americans are going to be taxed to pay for this
> illegal
> invasion? Disgusting.

In most cases they pay taxes. They just don't get any benefits. They present falsified SS numbers and green cards and the employers deduct taxes from their wages.


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Paying taxes is a job now that Americans don't want to do.
Posted by: Ruby Begonia
Date: March 29, 2006 08:31PM

The storm is gathering. As Laura Ingraham said yesterday, "It's gonna get ugly."
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Michael
Date: March 29, 2006 08:55PM
Refurbvirgin Wrote:

> In most cases they pay taxes. They just don't get
> any benefits. They present falsified SS numbers
> and green cards and the employers deduct taxes
> from their wages.

No doubt that about 15% of their wages paid through payrolls get paid as taxes for social security (employee plus employer). For those working for cash, there's no social security paid; that's fine, since they won't get it back. They also pay sales tax, of course.

But, what of the other taxes that aren't paid and/or illegals claiming the Earned Income Tax Credit? [www.cis.org]. I've been told by employers around my home town, that hire large numbers of Hispanics, that it is typical for people to claim enough exemptions that there is no withholding of federal taxes, and then to simply not file taxes. If that is true, then they are not paying federal nor state taxes.

These folks argue that there is a net $10 billion cost at the federal level for illegals [www.cis.org].

What of state and local costs? There is the common use of hospital emergency rooms for basic medical care, because they have to allow it by federal regulation. There is the impact of kids in school. Our local system is now 60% hispanic and the best guess is that over half are illegal (nobody really knows since it's illegal to ask for id from the families). These folks [www.fairus.org] argue that illegal kids and the kids of illegals cost $28.6 billion to educate each year.

We've had to build a new jail in our town ($21 million 2 years ago). They don't report the racial makeup of prisoners, but the local paper's "blotter" shows Hispanic names making up about 2/3 of folks in trouble. Our jail has a daily population averaging 450; that's triple what it was 10 years ago when the Hispanic deluge started around here.

All of the above are government (read, you and me) costs. No doubt that the illegals are paying sales tax and those that are not working for cash are paying Social Security taxes, but the tax vs. cost ratio to government seems to land on the costs-more-than-get-in-taxes side.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: VATO
Date: March 29, 2006 09:10PM
Seal the border NOW. No amnesty. NO guest worker. Come here legally or be sent home.

I will not be intimidated in my homeland by protestors who are here illegally. What is this France?

And I will not vote for ANYONE - Republican, Demwit or Libertarian who expects me to.

This is my line in the sand.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: davester
Date: March 29, 2006 09:56PM
Shakeman, you...etc.

Yeesh, why did I bother clicking this asinine link?



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: x-uri
Date: March 30, 2006 12:51AM
davester Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Shakeman, you...etc.
>
> Yeesh, why did I bother clicking this asinine
> link?
>

for the same reason you'd poke a dead body with a stick; you know that you won't like the result, but the sickest, saddest, weirdest part of you wants to see what might crawl out from under it.

personally i envy the denizens of wingnutania. it would be much more entertaining to live in a world where Al Queda members are disguising themselves as illegal aliens sneaking into the US to get gay-married, release anthrax, and depress wages for the real americans (presumably by sleeping ten deep in sh!ttty one room apartments and working as busboys, hotel maids, and fruit pickers for starvation wages).

you gotta wonder if there is ANY manufactured wedge issue that they won't happily adopt?

if Rove wound up the noise machine in favor of a return to the gold standard, do you suppose we'd be treated to disquisitions about the evils of paper money and charges that Democrats were trying to destroy the economy by refusing to tie the value of the dollar to the Krugerrand?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2006 12:51AM by x-uri.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: RgrF
Date: March 30, 2006 01:04AM
The sad part is these "manufactured" issues work for them every time.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: March 30, 2006 01:31AM
Why is it that this issue is not allowed to be discussed? Where is the rationale? Michael made some very good points. We have the same issues here in my home city. In the last 10-15yrs. we've had a huge increase in crime that is largely attributable to illegal immigrants. In what way is this not an issue that affects us all? And if it is, why can't we discuss it? kj.
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Hispanics in this country are well trained GANG members who just might come to a neighborhood near you
Posted by: Ruby Begonia
Date: March 30, 2006 08:50AM
A friend who speeks Spanish tells me that if the
American people could understand what is being said
on Telemundo TV and the other Mexican TV stations,
we would be outraged and scared to death.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 30, 2006 10:41AM
Michael Wrote:
> These folks argue that there is a net $10 billion
> cost at the federal level for illegals .

Feh. That's the cost of two months of Bush's illegal and counterproductive (if the aim is to protect us from terrorism) three year old war on Iraq? What are you doing to protest that vastly greater waste of your tax dollars?
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Michael
Date: March 30, 2006 11:10AM
Refurbvirgin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Feh. That's the cost of two months of Bush's
> illegal and counterproductive (if the aim is to
> protect us from terrorism) three year old war on
> Iraq? What are you doing to protest that vastly
> greater waste of your tax dollars?

Meh. May not be a big deal for the feds, but the state and local impact is huge, as I noted above.

Oh, and I'm doing exactly the same thing I'm doing about illegal aliens, my ability to freeze my credit reports and the several local concerns I have--I send short emails to my representatives letting them know my perspective on these issues.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 30, 2006 11:27AM
Michael Wrote:
> Oh, and I'm doing exactly the same thing I'm doing
> about illegal aliens, my ability to freeze my
> credit reports and the several local concerns I
> have--I send short emails to my representatives
> letting them know my perspective on these
> issues.

Good! Stay involved, stay active. Keep your perspective though. The gangsters in the White House are greater threats to our freedom than any foreign enemy.


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Re: Hispanics in this country are well trained GANG members who just might come to a neighborhood near you
Posted by: x-uri
Date: March 30, 2006 02:48PM
Ruby Begonia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A friend who speeks Spanish tells me that if the
> American people could understand what is being
> said
> on Telemundo TV and the other Mexican TV
> stations,
> we would be outraged and scared to death.

Does your friend also speek ingles?

But your friend is absolutely correct. Telemundo and Univision are used by the terrorista migratorio to transmit messages in their fiendishly complex and virtually untranslatable espanol -- a language no "American people" can speak.

shakeman es un idiota (ask your spanish-speeking friend to translate it for you).

(seriously, there hasn't been anything really terrifying on Univision since they cancelled El Show de Xuxa)





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2006 02:49PM by x-uri.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: x-uri
Date: March 30, 2006 03:10PM
kj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why is it that this issue is not allowed to be
> discussed? Where is the rationale? Michael made
> some very good points. We have the same issues
> here in my home city. In the last 10-15yrs. we've
> had a huge increase in crime that is largely
> attributable to illegal immigrants. In what way
> is this not an issue that affects us all? And if
> it is, why can't we discuss it? kj.

Who is trying to keep you from discussing anything?

Here are some conversation starters:

1- How well has the "guest worker" designation been working out in Germany, Denmark, France, and Holland?

2 - Do we really want a de jure unskilled labor class, who will live among us but will be prohibited from participating in the political process?

3 - Is it really in the best interests of domestic workers to provide employers with a work force for entry level positions that will not be in the country long enough to ask for advancement, and that will be at the mercy of the employers to maintain their immigrant status?

4 - How much of the housing boom -- the only bright spot in the domestic economy for the last 5 years -- do you suppose is attributable to the cheap labor provided by undocumented workers?

5- What status will be given to the children born to guest workers in the US?

6 - Aren't there, perhaps less xenophobic ways of dealing with the alleged problems caused by illegal immigration? How about a rise in the mandatory minimum wage, to make landscaping, fruitpicking, and hotel housekeeping jobs more attractive to US citizens? How about stronger unions, in partnership with employers, putting in place employment agreements that require all entry level positions be filled by people legally eligible to be promoted? How about breaking the kneecaps of any roofing contractor who cruises the industrial district looking for a crew of day laborers?

7 - Which do you suppose has resulted in a greater loss of revenue, undocumented workers using social services or tax-cuts on the wealthiest 5% of the population?


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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: March 30, 2006 05:55PM
>perhaps less xenophobic

There's my problem. I haven't seen anything that would qualify for xenophobic in this thread. Like I said, Michael brought up good points, and others including you wrote those points off as nothing more than politics, in addition to now calling anyone who thinks there is a problem a racist.

I'm not afraid of mexicans, but I am afraid of bullets and other violence that has come here with the illegal aliens. And things are getting worse. The prevailing attitude among some is that there is no _real_ problem.

I also disagree with refurb that we can't be concerned about anything that is a "lesser" problem than the war in Iraq. I think most of us have plenty of time to be concerned about several things of varying importance/impact.

I see a couple things in your list I wouldn't mind discussing, but for the most part you've framed the issue as being primarily political, rather than pragmatic. I would rather discuss solutions (I don't care what costs more than what. Can we stop silly expenditures in one area, and not another? Or does it all have to happen at once or in some particular order?). kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: x-uri
Date: March 30, 2006 06:40PM
I don't think that anyone is saying that illegal immigration is good, or that it does not cause problems.

It just isn't a new problem. In my estimation, there are those in the Republican party who are trying to turn immigration reform into the new gay marriage. And they are certainly counting on the xenophobia of folks like Shakeman and Rowdy -- who's sphincters let go every time they see a storefront with signage in spanish.

The folks who are crossing the southern border illegally, coming up from Honduras, Guatemala, Mexico, etc. are driven by need. They put themselves at grave personal risk to get here, and once they are here they work hard to send money home. The folks who, we are being told, "jumped the line" did it by riding hundreds of miles on the tops of freight trains, crossing jungles and deserts on foot, and paying gangster coyotes to smuggle them across borders. They are not the problem, they are a symptom; and the closing the border -- as if we could -- will not effect a cure.

Blaming the latinos in your town for the problems of illegal immigration is like blaming the Irish for the potato famine. They had the misfortune to be born in a third world countries, the governments of which value them only for their potential to get to the first world and send money back home.

We are addicted to cheap labor, whether it is overseas sweatshops or undocumented workers at home.

Corporations don't just pursue profits, they pursue year-over-year increases in profit -- which inevitably drives them to reduce labor costs. This takes money away from the middle class, who look for cheaper good and services to maintain the middle class lifestyle, which drives down the prevailing wage for unskilled labor, which creates a demand for workers who will accept less than a living wage and have no way to demand better.

If we want to enact legislation to break the cycle then we have to reinstate all the controls on corporations, and add some. We have to break up the trusts --again, so that there is competition for skilled labor. We have to stop sending jobs overseas to countries in which the workers have no legal protections. We have to institute a living wage standard in the US, and demand that our trading partners do likewise.

And we should do things like provide universal health care and a institute a meaningful family leave act, to make it easier for skilled workers to bail out on a bad employer.

Basically, we have to get in the way of business and make the economy inefficient.
Lettuce may end up costing $5 a head, but you will have the money to pay for it.

We should also invest heavily in third world infrastructure, help our neighbors to the south to develop domestic industries so that their citizens will have an alternative to risking their lives to sneak into the US to wash our laundry and mow our lawns.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: x-uri
Date: March 30, 2006 06:44PM
kj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> There's my problem. I haven't seen anything that
> would qualify for xenophobic in this thread.

Is shakeman/vato/ruby begonia on your ignored list?
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 30, 2006 06:46PM
Awesome, x-uri!
Thank you!
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: March 30, 2006 08:56PM
Ok, I have sympathy for anyone who has a tough time. I also have a lot of very good things to say about many of the mexican and other latino people I know. Contrary to the old stereotype, they are very hard workers (having worked picking fruit myself, I can say they kicked my ass). But..

>Blaming the latinos in your town for the problems of illegal immigration is like blaming the Irish for the potato famine. They had the misfortune to be born in a third world countries<

I'm not blaming them for illegal immigration. I'm blaming them for drive-by shootings and other violence. Well, and I'm not blaming ALL the latinos in town. Just the illegal ones who are involved in crime. I think it is reasonable to look at ways to keep illegal immigrants for coming here, if they are disproportionately involved in crime.

At any rate, I'm not in favor of continuing to take advantage of immigrants and I think an important component of ending this is going to have to be making it more difficult for them to come here illegally and work illegally. I also think we are going to have to make some sacrifices (materially), and I could live with that. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: VATO
Date: March 30, 2006 09:07PM
Anyone else here starting to wonder if they will outlive the United States of America?
[www.aztlan.net]
[www.aztlan.net]

[www.mexica-movement.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2006 11:01AM by VATO.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: March 30, 2006 09:08PM
>Is shakeman/vato/ruby begonia on your ignored list?

I also don't see anything blatently xenophobic in this thread. Maybe within the context of other threads, but I probably haven't seen those other threads. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 30, 2006 11:30PM
Great link, VATO.

"Racist Congressman Dana Rohrabacher (R of California 4th district) of red-neck Orange County said that he didn't care how long people had been in "this country" illegally, if they were here illegally for 5 or 50 years that they should be deported. Fine! Europeans have been here illegally since 1492, START THE DEPORTATIONS NOW! First one to go should be this Nazi Rohrabacher!"

Something tells me this isn't just a bunch of rowdy kids taking any excuse to cut school. That's the way the local media have been portraying it. I bet Schwarzenegger doesn't make a lot of public appearances after this.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: x-uri
Date: March 31, 2006 03:33AM
kj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I also don't see anything blatently xenophobic in
> this thread. Maybe within the context of other
> threads, but I probably haven't seen those other
> threads. kj.

Are you putting me on?

From the top post in this thread:

"So, it's not surprising that my grandparents are outraged that any immigrant would carry anything other than an American Flag or protest when they are illegally here. "

"It is so apparent that many of these illegals don't really want to be Americans, they just want to use America and bring it down to where they came from."

And Rowdy's whole post:

"I like the people. Don't like the two languages. But, I'm trying to learn spanish to edumacate myself. They should not invade us, of course. We should protect our borders. And arrest people that hire/hide/allow them to fake their way in.

Why don't we just make Mexico the 51st state? That way once the roads and security are improved, I'd LOVE to drive down there."

and Ruby Begonia (shakeman):

"A friend who speeks Spanish tells me that if the
American people could understand what is being said
on Telemundo TV and the other Mexican TV stations,
we would be outraged and scared to death."

If shakeman's dislike of foreigners is not both irrational and intense, then there is no such thing as xenophobia.


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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: RgrF
Date: March 31, 2006 03:42AM
kj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Is shakeman/vato/ruby begonia on your ignored
> list?
>
> I also don't see anything blatently xenophobic in
> this thread. Maybe within the context of other
> threads, but I probably haven't seen those other
> threads. kj.

I think you've said all you need to say. If you don't see any racism in the comments you probably never will and most likely would prefer not to.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Nowakeos
Date: March 31, 2006 09:29AM
I don't have a problem when you do it legally.

[www.mexica-movement.org]

I find it enormously amusing that that a number of the
signs/banners from these rallies make some reference to
'native land' or something to the effect that Mexico owned
this land prior to the United States. My great-grandfather
was 100% Native American. Our tribe was here thousands of
years before Spain conquered and took over. The Native
American claim to this land precedes theirs by an enormous
amount. In talking to my Hispanic associaties about this
situation it's eye opening how much they back pedal when
confronted by these statements. Personally, I accept that
history is history and, while useful as a guide to future
behavior, should be accepted and everyone has to live with
the results to the best of their ability. Since when did a
transient control over a territory enable every descendant
perpetual rights?
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: March 31, 2006 03:01PM
Nowakeos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since
> when did a
> transient control over a territory enable every
> descendant
> perpetual rights?

Tell that to the Israelis.


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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: March 31, 2006 06:22PM
>I think you've said all you need to say. If you don't see any racism in the comments you probably never will and most likely would prefer not to.<

See, there you go. You did exactly what I knew someone would. You've now implied that I'm racist. I see that as a lazy way to feel like you've won an argument. Once it is said, there is no way to respond. How can a person prove they aren't racist?

My definition of racism is likely different from yours. And I think a person should be able to discuss it without statements like yours.

Can someone believe that a person should learn english if they are citizens of the U.S., without being racist? Can they recognize that the roads are bad and corruption in law enforcement is rampant in mexico, without being racist? Can they believe that people should not be allowed to enter the U.S. illegally, and not be racist? Racists may say things like this, but not everyone who says things like this is a racist.

Explain why those things that were quoted are necessarily racist. I may agree. But it seems that if the statements may be true, they're not racist. I'm not sure I completely understand the intent of the statements though, and that's where the context provided by what has been said before by these people (person?) might be important. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: x-uri
Date: March 31, 2006 07:21PM
Okay -- xenophobe isn't a synonym for racist. Xenophobia is fear of, or contempt for, foreigners. Racism is a belief that one ethnicity is superior to another. Racists are often xenophobes, and vice versa -- but I used the word "xenophobic" with precision. If I'd meant to call Rowdy a racist, I would have -- and with cause (ask him why he puts a pistol in his jock strap whenever he shoots hoops).

English is NOT the official language of the United States. Rowdy's comment, that he dislikes bilingual immigrants, or non-english speaking immigrants, is evidence of his fearfulness. And there is no way to construe his comment about making Mexico -- a sovereign nation with a history stretching back for a millennium or more -- the "51st state" as anything other than contemptuous.

Cassie's assimilationist screed is nothing but a litany of suspicion and disdain for immigrant culture.

Shakeman's comment about "American people" not being able to understand what is being said on spanish language television (which he misidentifies as "Mexican" -- Telemundo is headquartered in Florida and Univision started in TX and is currently based in LA), especially his contention that what is being broadcast would frighten and outrage "americans" is the very definition of xenophobia.

As for Michael -- his characterization of the changing demographics in his city as a "hispanic deluge" is suggestive, but more telling is his selective quoting of pseudo-statisitics.

Before we can attribute the rise in the incarcerated population to the increased hispanic presence we'd need to see how the overall population has changed in the last 10 years:

Are hispanics a larger fraction of the total now than they were in 1996? Do hispanics make up a larger fraction of the police blotter entries than they did in 1996. How does the economic and educational status of the hispanics in custody compare to the education and economic status of inmates of other ethnicities or national origin?

Presumably the the greater number of hispanics in the prison are not illegal immigrants, otherwise they'd be deported -- in fact, if they are here on any kind of resident alien visa they'd face deportation for any serious offense [careers.findlaw.com] (pdf)), so if the "deluge" of people with latino names is really the cause of a crime wave, then many of those criminals are citizens or legal resident aliens and ought to be excluded from an estimate of the increased crime rate attributable to the illegal alien population.

He admits that he has none of this data is available, but still he draws the inference.

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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: April 01, 2006 12:23AM
>Okay -- xenophobe isn't a synonym for racist.

I see it as a specific type of racism. At any rate, the two terms are hopelessly intertwined here and elsewhere.

How much of the "fear" or concern about illegal immigration is justified? I would submit that question can't be answered yet. If it is justified, it isn't xenophobic.

I'm not going to defend Rowdy, but I think you're presuming too much about the intentions of some here. And reading too much into their concerns.

>Presumably the the greater number of hispanics in the prison

I'm sure it's even more complicated than that. It's very common for illegals who have been arrested or are involved in a crime to flee back to mexico. I'm not sure how they are counted. I'm sure too that some forms of crime that have arrived with illegal immigrants (drive-by shootings, etc.) are also more newsworthy. Whatever, I just like to see honest discussion, since it is rarely allowed without a good deal of conjecture as to the "real" intentions of the participants. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: April 01, 2006 12:34AM
I would like to relate an example that comes to mind with topics like this. We watch the news many nights, and my son (then 9 or 10) asked why most of the crimes on the news involved people from mexico. I tried to answer the question in the best way I could, but it wasn't easy. It made me think about what I really believe, and what I think it is acceptable to say about what I believe. What would you guys say in this situation? I swear I'm not trying to make any particular point winking smiley. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: x-uri
Date: April 01, 2006 01:35AM
kj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Okay -- xenophobe isn't a synonym for racist.
>
> I see it as a specific type of racism. At any
> rate, the two terms are hopelessly intertwined
> here and elsewhere.

No. Words have meanings. Xenophobia and racism are different things. In this case the difference is crucial -- since we are discussing irrational fear of foreigners -- foreign language, foreign culture -- not a hatred of a particular race. And I used one word and not the other for a reason.


>
> How much of the "fear" or concern about illegal
> immigration is justified? I would submit that
> question can't be answered yet. If it is
> justified, it isn't xenophobic.

Then justify it. Show data. Present facts.

>
> I'm sure it's even more complicated than that.
> It's very common for illegals who have been
> arrested or are involved in a crime to flee back
> to mexico. I'm not sure how they are counted.
> I'm sure too that some forms of crime that have
> arrived with illegal immigrants (drive-by
> shootings, etc.) are also more newsworthy.
> Whatever, I just like to see honest discussion,
> since it is rarely allowed without a good deal of
> conjecture as to the "real" intentions of the
> participants. kj.

What do you mean "very common"? Give numbers. And Michael wasn't talking about the ones who fled, he is talking about the ones who got caught and were put into the jail (or the prison -- he is not clear if this a city, county, or state facility and what kinds of offenders are incarcerated there).

And "drive by shootings" didn't arrive with illegal immigrants. There have been drive bys for as long as there have been things to shoot with and things to drive.

As for what to tell your kid about why so many hispanics are featured in news reports of street crime, explain to him that violent criminals, drug dealers, and petty thieves are overwhelmingly poor people and, in this country, a larger percentage of the hispanic population, than the white population, is poor.

You could also point out to him that there are plenty of white-skinned, english-speaking criminals in the news; Duke Cunningham, Jack Abramof, Tom Delay's entire staff, Bob Ney, Ken Lay, Jeffery Skilling, Scooter Libby, Martha Stewart, Jim West, Robert Larson, etc.




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2006 01:41AM by x-uri.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 01, 2006 06:26AM
kj -
You could also explain to your son that, as Will Rogers said, "the ethics of a nation are only as good as its leaders, never better," and as long as the gangsters running our country wage illegal war as a form of massive drive-by shooting at nations that have done us no harm there will be those in our society who see the example of might-makes-right and follow it. The cost to society of the criminals in the White House, in dollars and innocent lives, is far greater than what he sees portrayed on the tv stations owned by corporations profiting from the massive war crime with which all Americans who are not protesting it are silently complicit.

Explain to him also that for most poor people the only way out of poverty is through education and that funds for it are being cut by this government as a recruiting tool, so that the only way many people can go to college is by going overseas and becoming killers for this government, so the alternative is to stay here and become killers. It's just the way the system works. And if they survive those killing fields and return then whatever inhibition they may have had about pulling a trigger on innocent people has been driven out of them. A nation engaged in lawlessness abroad cannot help but become lawless at home.

'Hope this helps your young'un better understand his violent homeland.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: April 01, 2006 05:30PM
>No. Words have meanings...

I don't see how you can be a xenophobe without being racist. Why would you be scared of foreigners? Because they're bad, etc.? But yes, I understand they are different words with different meanings.

>Show data. Present facts.

Data for the future is pretty hard to come by. Millions of foreign people are moving here, and we don't know anything about them. They're here illegally. I know the welfare situation is dire, and it's going to get worse. Programs for people who are here legally are suffering because there is only so much money. I know that crimes that have never occurred in this area, are occurring. And they involve illegal immigrants. And I know that many of them have no interest in "integrating" or learning english, etc. That worrys me, and other people. The worst thing is that no matter what we do, it will be hard. I'm not xenophobic, and neither are they. Just concerned about things that look ominous.

>What do you mean "very common"? Give numbers.

There are no numbers for obvious reasons. This isn't science, and it can't be. A good friend of mine (20yrs) was a prison guard and married a prisoner who _is_ here illegally, and for some reason served a prison term and was released. He is a "big time" drug runner. When he was implicated in drug smuggling again, he took their child and fled to Mexico. There is much, much more she has said to me regarding how things work in their culture. She loves him, and the people, but she knows what goes on there, and it isn't good. Some of what she has told me has been somewhat verified at a later date by law enforcement, such as the idea that Boise is a "hub" for drug smuggling (Mexico>Boise>East and West). It's well known now, but when she told me, I had never heard it before. She also doesn't want to admit her mistakes, so I tend to believe her. At any rate, it's just anecdotal, and I treat is as such. But I sure as heck take it all seriously as a possible problem.

>And "drive by shootings" didn't arrive with illegal immigrants. There have been drive >bys for as long as there have been things to shoot with and things to drive.

They did here. Sorry, but it's a fact. And they continue to be exclusively mexican, for whatever reason.

As for my kid, I already answered the question, but was curious how others would answer it. I brought up the people he likes (a coach and friends) who are latino and suggested there are people of all sorts involved in crime. I didn't think it was a good idea to get real complicated (complicated answers often sound like lies). At any rate, your answer is silly Refurb, but I think you know that. It's like, I just ate a bad orange this morning, but how can you expect it to be good in a country whose rulers are involved in sour, bitter dealings all over the world. You know? kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 01, 2006 07:55PM
kj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> At
> any rate, your answer is silly Refurb, but I think
> you know that. It's like, I just ate a bad orange
> this morning, but how can you expect it to be good
> in a country whose rulers are involved in sour,
> bitter dealings all over the world. You know?
> kj.

I don't see the comparison between a sour orange and the might-makes-right example a government sets for its people. If the people see their leaders using unprovoked assault with intent to murder on innocent people abroad is it not logical that level of morality would become the standard by which society would operate domestically?

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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: x-uri
Date: April 01, 2006 08:54PM
kj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >No. Words have meanings...
>
> I don't see how you can be a xenophobe without
> being racist.

Would you call Japanese a different race from Chinese? Would you call Finns a different race from Hungarians? Are the French a different race from the British? Are the Irish a different race from the English? How about Hutus and Tutsis?

> Why would you be scared of
> foreigners?

Phobias are not rational.

> >Show data. Present facts.
>
> Data for the future is pretty hard to come by.
> Millions of foreign people are moving here, and we
> don't know anything about them. They're here
> illegally. I know the welfare situation is dire,
> and it's going to get worse. Programs for people
> who are here legally are suffering because there
> is only so much money. I know that crimes that
> have never occurred in this area, are occurring.
> And they involve illegal immigrants. And I know
> that many of them have no interest in
> "integrating" or learning english, etc. That
> worrys me, and other people. The worst thing is
> that no matter what we do, it will be hard. I'm
> not xenophobic, and neither are they. Just
> concerned about things that look ominous.
>

Sorry kj, but you need to give me data for the things you "know". People "know" all kinds of things that turn out not to be true.

And complaining about foreigners who -- you believe -- don't want to "integrate" (assimilate) is a classic xenophobic argument.

> >What do you mean "very common"? Give numbers.
>
> There are no numbers for obvious reasons. This
> isn't science, and it can't be.

The only obvious reasons for a lack of numbers is that the numbers aren't being compiled, or aren't being published, or you don't know where to look them up, and we certainly can apply scientific reasoning to these questions.


> I didn't
> think it was a good idea to get real complicated
> (complicated answers often sound like lies).

And that, right there, is why I am quitting the thread. We've been here before kj. It seems to me, from this argument and previous, that you trust your fear, your faith, your "common sense" more than you trust reason.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2006 08:56PM by x-uri.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: April 01, 2006 11:13PM
>I don't see the comparison between a sour orange

My point is that not everything is due to the war in iraq. That's all. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 02, 2006 12:13AM
kj Wrote:
> My point is that not everything is due to the war
> in iraq.

I wasn't referring to only the war on Iraq, but on the hyper-aggressive American foreign policy based on massive violence against civlian populations and dismissive of the loss of innocent life as "collateral damage." Our society is the most violent on earth, as demonstrated by the worship of violence in our entertainment, either in theaters or athletic arenas. Because our government sends the message that violence is the preferred method of settling differences in the world community that attitude necessarily comes home to your neighborhood.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: April 02, 2006 12:27AM
>Would you call Japanese a different race from Chinese?

Not following you here.

>Phobias are not rational.

They actually are to some extent. Heights can be dangerous, so a fear of heights is rational. You would probably call it a phobia when it interferes with normal function. The term xenophobia has no validity whatsoever when it is used as you have used it. I think it is a thinly veiled accusation of racism. Have you ever seen a person with a real phobia? They literally freak out. I really doubt any of these people you call xenophobics exhibit any of the characteristics a person with a phobia exhibit. This word you seem to think is some sort of scientific term is a sham.

>Sorry kj, but you need to give me data for the things you "know". People "know" all kinds >of things that turn out not to be true.

No doubt, but people throw around stats all the time, and it often makes no difference. I decided not that long ago that a person might as well throw out their opinion and a simple reason. I have no problem with stats though, but I don't feel like everything requires data. An example is the effect of dams on salmon. Everyone knows the salmon are disappearing due to dams, but the endless calls for new data, interpretation of data, conclusions based on the data accomplish nothing. If we want salmon, we need to get rid of the dams. In this case, science is too slow. It is not necessary.

>And complaining about foreigners who -- you believe -- don't want to >"integrate" (assimilate) is a classic xenophobic argument.

Silly, invalid use of a word. I have no intense fear of foreigners. I've even visited them. What you really mean is that you disagree with me, and it's a word that is persuasive to some. I don't care.

>The only obvious reasons for a lack of numbers is that the numbers aren't being compiled...

Some things are hard to count. In this case, the closest thing would be failure to appear. That happens a lot, but a person can always debate why. And it doesn't address the question anyway.

>And that, right there, is why I am quitting the thread.

You're quitting the thread because I prefer simple answers to complicated ones when speaking to children. Ok. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: April 02, 2006 12:35AM
>Our society is the most violent on earth

I doubt it. People are violent by nature. It works, and has always worked. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 02, 2006 12:52AM
kj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >Our society is the most violent on earth
>
> I doubt it. People are violent by nature. It
> works, and has always worked. kj.

Name another nation on earth that is illegally invading and occupying another nation right now, and using illegal weapons to do it, while killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians?

Here's an article by noted author/radio personality Thom Hartmann which explains the "immigration problem."
Illegal Workers: the Cons' Secret Weapon
[informationclearinghouse.info]


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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: April 02, 2006 04:55PM
>Name another nation on earth that is illegally invading and occupying another nation >right now, and using illegal weapons to do it, while killing tens of thousands of innocent >civilians?

That doesn't support your assertion at all. The most violent nation _right now_, more so. Also, "nations" aren't violent, people are. Just because our leaders may be, doesn't mean our whole nation is. There is also the fact that nations without the resources can't participate in this contest. There may be nations who given the resources, could out do us by quite a bit. Not to mention potential. I think N. Korea, China, and many others have a lot of potential. There's no way you can substantiate such a wild claim. And even you could, it doesn't mean anything.

As far as immigration, there _are_ problems. Politicians may be seizing the opportunity to use this issue to their benefit (I'm sure they are), but that doesn't mean the whole issue is defined by those idiots. I knew we were going to have some difficulties a _long_ time before anyone was throwing around the word "neocon". That's how politicians operate. If a factory gets shut down, they seize that issue to get votes. It doesn't mean no one lost their jobs. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: April 02, 2006 05:02PM
Further, I agree it is all about money. But I don't believe it has anything to do with eliminating the middle class. I would even concede that it could have that effect, but I don't believe it is a complicated conspiracy. I don't think politicians could think that far ahead. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 02, 2006 11:10PM
It doesn't take a conspiracy, Just a large number of extremely wealthy people that all think the same way. A friend's dad was a decorated WW2 vet, and close friend of Dick Cheney. He married the widow of a hotel magnate. She died, so he married a Texas judge. He died so the judge controls a vast fortune. She told my friend that she and her friends are investing in India, since "Americans are spoiled." They've got an English-literate workforce that will do the same work as Americans, but for much less. These people aren't Americans, but multi-nationalists. That's why Bush insists outsourcing is a good thing. It is, for his class. GM used to be the model for US industry with good wages for semi-skilled labor, and good benefits and retirement. If you want to see what is coming for US workers watch GM cut benefits, wages, and retirement at the same time it sheds its US workforce for foreign plant investment. The middle class in the US is declining and the number living in poverty is growing. This is by intent.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: kj
Date: April 03, 2006 12:19AM
>This is by intent.

Sorry, but I've been hearing that idea, in different forms, for so long, I just can't believe it. The more short-term type stuff that makes people money, sure. I think it's a by-product of greed and short-sightedness, rather than the goal. Maybe the rich and powerful know we're going down, but want to make sure they (and their families) are insulated. Maybe I just don't see a clear enough advantage to the absence of a middle-class. kj.
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Re: The way Congress is surrendering to the illegals makes the French look like heroes
Posted by: Refurbvirgin
Date: April 03, 2006 01:23AM
There is only one thing the wealthy want, and that is everything.
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