This is one thing I thought of while watching the world news this evening. I hate to
even bring it up but I so vividly remember all the concealed gun advocates saying
if one student in the area of the Virginia Tech shooter had been packing a pistol
the shooter could have been taken out. Today's shooting took place on a Military
Base, the largest I believe in the world. So what went wrong? Is there no arms on
the this base or something? Before you brush me off as anti-gun sorry but you
would be barking up the wrong tree with that.

---

Grateful11

Obviously you've never been in the military, or a military dependent or civilian working on a military base Grateful. Of course there are weapons all over base, but they are locked up or under control. The only personnel allowed to carry a fire arm are the MPs and they have better things to do than stand guard in a processing center waiting for some deranged psycho to start shoot people.

Unlike the civilian world where private citizens may be allowed to carry a weapon, military folks don't have that right when entering the gates. There are exceptions for hunters (as many military installations have land set aside for the sport).

It is rather ironic that those who fight to maintain our freedoms give up many of their own while serving. There are just certain things you cannot do while wearing a uniform. Expressing political preferences in public being one of them.

---

If you don't stand for something, you'll probably fall for anything.

It is doubly sad that some people couldn't wait for ambulances to even reach the morgue before taking cheap political shots. He had posted on blogs that suicide bombers are like soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades. We will find a long trail of red flags that were "missed".

---

Quote
Dakota
It is doubly sad that some people couldn't wait for ambulances to even reach the morgue before taking cheap political shots. He had posted on blogs that suicide bombers are like soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades. We will find a long trail of red flags that were "missed".

Where did you get THAT?

I find it completely disgusting that you would stoop so low as to use a real-world occurrence to promote your anti-gun agenda.</sarc>


It is doubly sad that some people couldn't wait for ambulances to even reach the morgue before taking cheap political shots.

Ah, the old "this is not the right time."
As if you would make a little note in your calendar and then send out an alert when the right time arrives?

---

Try to forget this,
Try to erase this,
From the blackboard.

Well Swampy you are correct never been in the Military but I have been at least
through a base. It was even brought up that no one even rushed the VT shooter.
We don't know the circumstances of this situation but we've got a base full of folks that
are ready to go to battle ......... Until I see the layout of the area in which this
happened I'm not going to feed you anymore.

I thought Swampy's point was a good one. Nevertheless, I'm hoping this degenerates into the usual liberal/conservative, "no, YOU'RE wrong" sort of thread. Those make me feel very, very smart.

Hasan is still alive. He is stable and in custody at the Ft. Hood hospital.

Quote
Greg
I thought Swampy's point was a good one. Nevertheless, I'm hoping this degenerates into the usual liberal/conservative, "no, YOU'RE wrong" sort of thread. Those make me feel very, very smart.

LOL Greg! Beautiful!!!

Quote
swampy
Obviously you've never been in the military, or a military dependent or civilian working on a military base Grateful. Of course there are weapons all over base, but they are locked up or under control. The only personnel allowed to carry a fire arm are the MPs and they have better things to do than stand guard in a processing center waiting for some deranged psycho to start shoot people.

Unlike the civilian world where private citizens may be allowed to carry a weapon, military folks don't have that right when entering the gates. There are exceptions for hunters (as many military installations have land set aside for the sport).

It is rather ironic that those who fight to maintain our freedoms give up many of their own while serving. There are just certain things you cannot do while wearing a uniform. Expressing political preferences in public being one of them.

Quote
Grateful11
Well Swampy you are correct never been in the Military but I have been at least
through a base. It was even brought up that no one even rushed the VT shooter.
We don't know the circumstances of this situation but we've got a base full of folks that
are ready to go to battle ......... Until I see the layout of the area in which this
happened I'm not going to feed you anymore.

Swampy I don't think there's any need to be condescending, guns are 'little' more prolific than that on a military base. I know pilots that carry their military issue hand guns on/near them while on base. Don't know if that was some kind of out of context situation I saw (I saw it on more than one occasion). So I would venture to guess there are others on a base that 'carry'.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 09:44PM by Carnos Jax.

So, let me get this straight. We should let kids carry guns to class so they could be heroes and whip them out and nail the bad guys, but in the military, where men are men and know how to use weapons, they keep them locked up?

In Oct 2001, I tried to drive thru Fort Sam Houston, like I always used to. Nice Lawns, etc. An attractive 20 yr old femaie came up to my car, holding a very imposing M16 ( I noticed her companion hung back, but very alert and ready). I explained I was trying to get to broadway...she advised me to take a left and continue on, and NOT to turn anywhere!

I did.

Quote
Dennis S
So, let me get this straight. We should let kids carry guns to class so they could be heroes and whip them out and nail the bad guys, but in the military, where men are men and know how to use weapons, they keep them locked up?

Great point. The fact is that military too is subject to political correctness. Even in a church they couldn't slaughter as many people. We still know very little.

---

Quote
Greg
I thought Swampy's point was a good one. Nevertheless, I'm hoping this degenerates into the usual liberal/conservative, "no, YOU'RE wrong" sort of thread. Those make me feel very, very smart.

Degenerate? The subject line alone screams politics.

---

It may not have started high-falutin', but the second post brought up some interesting ideas. Then, we could've seen conversation and stuff.

So, things should go to hell, shortly.

If you want to argue for the military personnel to carry guns on the base I am with you. As I said, the mindset that simply carrying a gun makes you a danger has filtered down to the military it looks like. They are as susceptible to politics as Coke executives.

---

My husband served in the early sixties and he told me tonight that you did not carry loaded weapons on the base back then unless you were on the range or pulling guard duty. That's four decades ago for the math-challenged among us. So this is not some recent "PC" thing.


PS boys: "This is my weapon, this is my gun - this one's for shooting, this one's for fun." Military personnel don't carry "guns".

---

Well, her heart was filled with gladness when she saw those city lights. She said the prettiest place on earth is Baltimore at night.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2009 10:48PM by $tevie.

The moral of the story: When guns are outlawed only Malik Hasan carries guns.

---

Quote
Gutenberg

Quote
Dakota
It is doubly sad that some people couldn't wait for ambulances to even reach the morgue before taking cheap political shots. He had posted on blogs that suicide bombers are like soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades. We will find a long trail of red flags that were "missed".

Where did you get THAT?

Just cut and paste "suicide bombers are like soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades"into a WWW search pane .
[www.google.com]

Like one might do when a link doesn't work.

I served six years active duty.

I only had a loaded weapon once, at the range (hit 30/30 with a .45).

I carried an unloaded .45 once while on watch in port, during an anti-terrorism exercise. Since we weren't really in an alert status, I didn't have any ammo.

But even the guys who were normally armed in port didn't have their weapons loaded unless there was a threat. I imagine that's changed somewhat after the USS Cole & 9-11.

Anyway, I agree with swampy that military bases are not rife with armed individuals. Try and run the gate, and you will get shot, yeah, but if you belong on base, you can find an "undefended" part pretty easily.

Quote
billb
Just cut and paste "suicide bombers are like soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades"into a WWW search pane .

Let me guess...that results in this thread being at the top?

Quote
Lux Interior

Quote
billb
Just cut and paste "suicide bombers are like soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades"into a WWW search pane .

Let me guess...that results in this thread being at the top?

Actually, no.
But the following sentence in every instance of the propagation notes that it's not confirmed that that blog post is actually Hasan's,

---

Try to forget this,
Try to erase this,
From the blackboard.

Quote
Dakota
The moral of the story: When guns are outlawed only Malik Hasan carries guns.

The moral of the story is the military knows it's not a good idea to have loaded weapons in the hands of personnel, even when they are trained in their use.

>>As I said, the mindset that simply carrying a gun makes you a danger has filtered down to the military it looks like.

DOES THAT MAKE THE MILITARY LIBERAL??

pretty soon they'll be GAY too!!!

---

Quote
billb

Quote
Gutenberg

Quote
Dakota
It is doubly sad that some people couldn't wait for ambulances to even reach the morgue before taking cheap political shots. He had posted on blogs that suicide bombers are like soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades. We will find a long trail of red flags that were "missed".

Where did you get THAT?

Just cut and paste "suicide bombers are like soldiers throwing themselves on grenades to save their comrades"into a WWW search pane .
[www.google.com]

Like one might do when a link doesn't work.

Very likely not the same guy, since his name is quite common. I notice the righties didn't bring that part of the AP report up.

Wow, 13 families are mourning and in shock and someone has to turn it into a lefty / righty thing.

Quote
billb
Wow, 13 families are mourning and in shock and someone has to turn it into a lefty / righty thing.

Your deep concern for those families is well displayed in your post. Congrats billb.

I wonder why this guy was not checked for weapons at the gate? Don't they screen? When did this guy enlist?

I am only going on news reports so far, which I don't totally trust at this point:

I also wonder why he was not checked out by FBI and the Base, after his reported internet postings, his verbal protesting of being deployed, along with his reported statements showing bias towards the enemy and against fellow soldiers. Did this guy not know of some American's fear of radicals, in America and in the enemy countries after 911. Why did he enlist in the first place? Did he also not realize that once he was trained, he stood a great chance of deployment?

It also seems he went rogue over time with verbal warnings to many. It also seems like thought he was American, he recently became verbally (and reported internet ) pro radical muslim while talking against American war effort, soldiers and the military.

Is this someone you would want as a Doctor in the American Military after his counseling in Virginia? They should have discharged him when they first got an inkling that he was a looney toon

Part of the problem (I would guess) is that the military is so desperate for many kinds of personnel, that they over look people with 'mental' issues. A friends husband (whom she divorced because of his stability) reupped in the Air Force as a Major.

Quote
decocritter
I am only going on news reports so far, which I don't totally trust at this point:

And where are you getting your news?

First the man did not enlist. He was a commissioned officer. He was a major. That is not a low rank.

I have not heard anything about these internet postings you speak of (outside of this thread, that is). Nor about this "counseling in VA".

It also seems like thought he was American

Last I checked, Virginia was a part of the US. He was born there. He was a commissioned officer in the Army. WTF are you talking about?

Your entire post reads like "Brown people are Muslims, Muslims are terrorists, Nidal was a terrorist" BS.

To one of Deco's questions: People who work on the base get stickers for their car. Nidal surely had one of those, and that is why his car was not searched. It used to be, but I am no longer sure about this because it was a long time ago, that people with a commissioned officer sticker could just drive onto any base, though most stopped at the guard house for directions at least.

To another: If I remember correctly Virginia is one of the 13 original states, along with Georgia and 11 others. Virginia got its very own quarter and everything.

"Thought he was an American?" He IS an American. He was born in Virginia. His father was a well-loved restaurateur in Roanoke. Nidal is as American as Timothy McVeigh.

I am sorry don't know why I wrote that - I meant he was born and raised American, then gravitated towards his radical points of view. He is obviously American. Reports said that from the beginning. I never questioned that fact.

TV report said someone with his name posted internet info defending radical point of view. They were still checking it out. Associates said he verbally talked this way also


He had psych care at his previous post before Hood, I thought Virginia.


Today's CNN reports say he was in military 20 years. I thought he enlisted to go to medical school. 20 years ago he never considered he would go to war, and I guess things change.


[online.wsj.com] speaks of Internet posting

another article

[www.nowpublic.com]

Major Malik Nadal Hasan was born and raised in Arlington, Virginia in 1968 or 1969, and was reported to have had a good childhood; he never got in to trouble either. He is considered a U.S citizen of Jordanian origin.

He completed a fellowship in Disaster and Preventive Psychiatry in 2009 at the Center for the Study of Traumatic Stress in Bethesda, Md. Previous to that he graduated from Virginia Tech University with a degree in Biochemistry in 1997. When he attended Virginia Tech he was a member of the Reserve Officers' Training Corps and earned his medial degree in 2001 from the military's Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda.

A photo of him from William Flemming High School in 1988.

Only recently in 2007 he completed a residency in psychiatry at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington and he helped treat wounded soldiers returing from Iraq and Afghanistan. He was currently working at the Darnell Medical Center at Fort Hood with soldiers suffering from post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)



[news.yahoo.com]

But Hasan argued with fellow soldiers who supported U.S. war policy, say those who know him professionally and personally. He was a counselor who once required counseling for himself because of trouble he had dealing with some patients, said a former boss.

Authorities on Friday seized Hasan's home computer, searched his apartment and took away a Dumpster as the 39-year-old Army major lay in a coma in the hospital, attached to a ventilator.

There are many unknowns about the man authorities say is responsible for the worst mass killing on a U.S. military base.

Most of all, his motive.

For six years before reporting for duty at Fort Hood, in July, Hasan worked at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center pursuing his career in psychiatry, as an intern, a resident and, last year, a fellow in disaster and preventive psychiatry. He received his medical degree from the military's Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md., in 2001.

While an intern at Walter Reed, Hasan had some "difficulties" that required counseling and extra supervision, said Dr. Thomas Grieger, who was the training director at the time.

Grieger said privacy laws prevented him from going into details but noted that the problems had to do with Hasan's interactions with patients. He recalled Hasan as a "mostly very quiet" person who never spoke ill of the military or his country.

"He swore an oath of loyalty to the military," Grieger said. "I didn't hear anything contrary to those oaths."

But, more recently, federal agents grew suspicious.

At least six months ago, Hasan came to the attention of law enforcement officials because of Internet postings about suicide bombings and other threats, including posts that equated suicide bombers to soldiers who throw themselves on a grenade to save the lives of their comrades.

They had not confirmed Hasan is the author of the posting, and a formal investigation had not been opened before the shooting, said law enforcement officials who spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to discuss the case.

Federal authorities seized Hasan's computer Friday during a search of his apartment in Killeen, Texas, said a U.S. military official who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the ongoing investigation.

His anger was noted by a classmate, who said Hasan "viewed the war against terror" as a "war against Islam."

Dr. Val Finnell, a classmate of Hasan's at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, attended a master's in public health program in 2007-2008. Finnell says he got to know Hasan because the group of public health students took an environmental health class together. At the end of the class, everyone had to give a presentation. Classmates wrote on topics such as dry cleaning chemicals and mold in homes, but Finnell said Hasan chose the war against terror. Finnell described Hasan as a "vociferous opponent" of the terror war. Finnell said Hasan told classmates he was "a Muslim first and an American second."

Hasan recently was involved in a spat with another Fort Hood soldier residing in his apartment complex, apparently related to his Muslim beliefs.

Hasan earned his rank of major in April 2008, according to a July 2008 Army Times article.

He served eight years as an enlisted soldier. Military records show he also served in the ROTC as an undergraduate at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg and received a bachelor's degree in biochemistry there in 1997.

But college officials said Friday that Hasan graduated with honors in biochemistry in 1995 and there was no record of him serving in any ROTC program.

He previously had attended Barstow Community College in Barstow, Calif., and Virginia Western Community College in Roanoke, Va., according to Virginia Tech records.

Even the media seems confused if he enlisted...

Maybe the focus ought to be on his area of discipline. I've had friends who've abandoned careers as therapists due to the personal damage they incurred in treating patients. If the consequences in a civilian setting can cause that result, it's only logical that the consequences of treating returning soldiers can do the same or more.

Like police work that attracts its share of unstable personalities, it's a unusual discipline that attracts many who need help themselves.