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OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: Buzz
Date: October 24, 2010 04:27PM
w/ Harbourmaster's help, I've been trying to get the latest and greatest OS 9 machine (MDD 1.25GHz DP) to play nice w/ our vintage industrial strength HP SCSI scanner, via the latest rev Adaptec 2930 card. Prior google fu seemed to show that a QS G4 was the most potent computer to support what I'm trying to do, but I couldn't glean concise evidence to show that a MDD would definitely not work; so we're trying it. Initially, we swapped the 2930 card for the scanner out of the GigE G4 it was in, as well as the UW2SCSI drive that was in there w/ the OS and other scanner related software. It took trying a few different UW2SCSI cards to get one that played nice w/ the MDD and the drive from the GigE, but one of the ATTO's from "the drawer" seems to work...

Here's the rub, when starting up in OS 9 from the ATTO SCSI card, or an OS 9 CD, the on board IDE drives aren't recognized. Booting from OS X recognizes everything; but for some reason (hence this post) the MDD won't fully boot into OS 9 from the on board IDE drive... there are two IDE drives, a 120GB w/ OS X, and an 80GB w/ OS 9. My hope is to get OS 9 working from the on board IDE drive, and get rid of the 2nd SCSI card and extra SCSI drive at that point. I'm not sure what's causing the hiccup, but until Harbourmaster returns, I'm pretty much stuck w/ doing things that don't require opening up the MDD. FWIW, there is also a second (PCI) video card in the MDD that we were using to drive a second monitor, but Baby Buzz was able to help me swap adapters and cables, and now both monitors are successfully running off of the AGP slot's Radeon 9600XT, so the PCI Radeon 9200 will also eventually be removed.

It seems as though the MDD is confusing itself over the various busses, though in full OS 9 mode, when booted from the ATTO SCSI card, the scanner, and other things OS 9 seem to work fine-- w/ the noted exception of recognizing the IDE bus' drives, and therefore OS X, which means to get into OS X, you have to restart and hold down the option key, and wait for the MDD to find everything and get its bearings. Any OS 9 gurus out there have any tips or tricks on how to resolve/troubleshoot this mess? When Harbourmaster returns, the obvious thing to do is pull the PCI SCSI and video cards, and see if that helps to clear up the confusion. The 80GB IDE OS 9 drive is running 9.2.2, but I'm wondering if maybe there's some extensions that are needed, or specifically not needed that would allow the IDE drive to be used successfully before Harbourmaster can trek back up here for the hand's on stuff? I'm guessing whatever that might be is missing from the OS 9 CD, or at least its startup folder, since the MDD also doesn't recognize the IDE bus when booted from it.

Thanks,
Buzz
==



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: marksomebodyelse
Date: October 24, 2010 05:03PM
Don't osX and os9 use different disk formats? Os x can recognize an os9 disk but can not boot from one and os9 does not recognize a osx format at all. i could be way off base here so don't jump all over me if I am smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2010 05:03PM by marksomebodyelse.
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: Doc
Date: October 24, 2010 05:20PM
> when booted from the ATTO SCSI card, the scanner,
> and other things OS 9 seem to work fine...

Because Atto made high quality products for professionals and Adaptec made cheap consumer-grade cr@p.

...

> the on board IDE drives aren't recognized.

Please explain in more detail what you mean by this. The drives don't mount on the Desktop? The drives aren't detectable in the Drive Setup Utility? The drives aren't visible to a third party app like Hard Disk Toolkit?

...

How did you erase the drives for OS 9? Did you do so while booted from OS 9 or did you do it while booted from OS X? If the latter, did you check the box to install OS 9 disk drivers?

...

The rule of thumb for troubleshooting problems when multiple busses and drives are involved is to simplify it and attack one element at a time.

Make sure that you're not putting a hard drive on the same bus as the optical drive (for now).

Remove the IDE hard drives, set the jumpers on one to the Master position and put that one back and see if that drive alone is recognized.
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: Buzz
Date: October 24, 2010 06:48PM
Drives don't mount on desktop, and bus not shown correctly in ASP; shows as SCSI w/ nothing attached... have not tried Drive Setup Utility; will look at that tomorrow. Booted from OS X to format 80GB drive, and did install OS 9 drivers. IIRC drive and optical are separate busses in MDD. Did use master setting separately when formatting IDE drives, then went to CS when both drives installed in bracket. In OS X, everything is recognized, it's just trying to boot to OS 9 from the IDE drive that presents the biggest problem... I'm assuming if it boots from the OS 9 IDE drive, it'll recognize the rest of the IDE bus (y/n?). Conceptually, I understand the booting from the SCSI card issue and not seeing the other busses, and again IIRC, the optical bus is slower than the two drive busses, and I'm not sure if that is a contributing factor. I have some 3rd party OS 9 utils that I'll move over to the MDD tomorrow also to try out. Unfortunately w/ the nerve damage in arms/hands, gotta wait for Harbourmaster for drive/jumper removal, and other inside the MDD operations. Just for shiggles, would formatting up a X/9 (classic) FW disc do anything diagnostically? How about just an OS 9 FW drive? Would booting from such an external cause the MDD to recognize the other busses differently, or is that strictly software? Thanks,

Buzz
==



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: Doc
Date: October 24, 2010 07:04PM
> bus not shown correctly in ASP; shows as SCSI w/ nothing attached...

Is that the native IDE bus that you're talking about or is it a PCI card? If the latter, it's perfectly normal to have the card look like a SCSI device and it's safe to ignore that "symptom."


> would formatting up a X/9 (classic) FW disc do anything diagnostically?

Not from what I can tell of your situation. No more than booting from an OS 9 install CD would.

...

BTW: Why are you trying to run OS 9 on that Mac? Those old Adaptec cards were mostly supported natively by Mac OS X 10.1-10.4 and there were OS X kernel extensions available as well.

VueScan (OS X) supports HP SCSI scanners. They've even got troubleshooting tips for them.
[www.hamrick.com]
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: JoeH
Date: October 24, 2010 07:12PM
Which "latest rev Adaptec" card do you have? As I recall from doing a BTO order 1.25 DP G4, it came with one that was identical to the retail card. That is compared to earlier OEM cards with a soldered on Apple specific ROM. The last ROM version from Adaptec was 4.3, I forget the last Apple ROM version.
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: Buzz
Date: October 24, 2010 08:51PM
native IDE bus, but it appears to be an OS 9 issue, because, as you say, same symptom from OS 9 CD.
will likely eventually evolve to VueScan for scanner, but wanted to use a couple of other native OS 9 apps as well on that workstation.
I'm assuming we could maybe go CS on the OS X drive cage, and add a second drive there, and move the OS 9 drive to the secondary cage/bus as a solo drive, and set it to master, but gotta wait for Harbourmaster to aid in the needed manpower. Issue is w/ OS 9 recognition, and got install from same CD, so thought that might be cause for missing and/or needed extension which is why I asked initially... thought maybe a different install CD/DVD might have better working set of extensions and be explanation for current behavior.
Adaptec 2930 card is eprom rev 4.3... I ordered three of 'em awhile back when I found an outfit that had 'em for $9/ea, and had a deal on shipping for orders over $25; figured they were getting scarce, so might as well "be prepared". I do have an earlier Apple ROM 2930, but it's too early for this application, as well as an even earlier one from a Power Computing clone... thought about trying to copy the 4.3 eprom onto the earlier card(s), but haven't found easy access to an eprom burner.



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: neophyte
Date: October 24, 2010 08:56PM
>Did use master setting separately when formatting IDE drives, then went to CS when both drives installed in bracket.<

IIRC, CS setting may not work. Did you try setting one as master and the other as slave? Or both to master on 2 separate IDE busses?
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: JoeH
Date: October 24, 2010 09:10PM
For the Adaptec card, did you either pull the jumper on the card or install it with the jumper on just one side of the connection? As I recall, that is necessary in G4 PowerMac's.

But neophyte may have the answer. CS was flakey in most PowerMac G4's, and even depends on which drives you install sometimes.

The only other issue I ever ran into with the DP 1.25 was that it needed its own version of the OS 9 installer discs. I don't think any of the retail discs supported it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/2010 09:10PM by JoeH.
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: testcase
Date: October 24, 2010 09:27PM
You state that ASP "sees" the SCSI card. Have you tried a different SCSI cable? A new cable I bought was defective. Drove me nuts at first. Is the scanner "terminated? Sometimes it was important.
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: davec
Date: October 24, 2010 09:33PM
On two occasions I had IDE hard drives that would not appear on the desktop when a Mac was booted into OS 9. This occurred even after OS X Disk Utility permitted OS 9 drivers to be installed. One drive was a Samsung (Spin Drive? ) but I can't recall the make of the other drive. Perhaps what I experienced was an isolated incident, but it seemed related to the issues you were experiencing. Good Luck!

Dave



...on the trailing edge of technology.
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: Doc
Date: October 24, 2010 10:54PM
Quick and easy solution:

Install 10.4.

Run your OS 9 apps in Classic.

Use VueScan for the scanner.
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: October 25, 2010 01:01AM
Might be an OS 9 driver issue, WIth those MDDs you need the version of OS 9 that shipped on the restore media for that computer IIRC. Earlier 9.x disks don't cut it.



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: Buzz
Date: October 25, 2010 02:12PM
Me-
"... it appears to be an OS 9 issue, because, as you say, same symptom from OS 9 CD."
"Issue is w/ OS 9 recognition, and got install from same CD, so thought that might be cause for missing and/or needed extension which is why I asked initially... thought maybe a different install CD/DVD might have better working set of extensions and be explanation for current behavior."
???

JoeH-
"The only other issue I ever ran into with the DP 1.25 was that it needed its own version of the OS 9 installer discs. I don't think any of the retail discs supported it."

C(-)ris-
"Might be an OS 9 driver issue, WIth those MDDs you need the version of OS 9 that shipped on the restore media for that computer IIRC. Earlier 9.x disks don't cut it."

The MDD worked fine in OS 9 when it was new/younger and booted from the internal IDE bus then, from prior drives that were in the machine... I don't recall where the install came from, but would assume that it likely came from the original install/restore discs. It also worked from from a pair of 9GB raided 10K SCSI drives off of probably the same ATTO SCSI card that was just reinstalled to run the drive pulled from the GigE machine. If my google fu is working properly, it appears I'm looking for the PM G4 discs w/ 10.2.1 or 10.2.6 and 9.2.2 to use the latter for the OS 9 MDD install. We have lots of PM G4 discs, and of course I never marked which set went w/ which G4... I'm hoping I was just using the wrong install disc... I have a retail 9.2.1 and a eMac 9.2.2 that were the source from the recent install... must now find and try the MDD discs... Thanks.



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: October 25, 2010 03:50PM
Late to the party as usual.

Buzz, try your IDE drives in the MDD on the ATA/66 bus at the front if you haven't already. The ATA/100 bus at the back is the only /100 one in any tower Mac and IIRC may have needed a special driver from the OS install CDs the MDDs came with to be recognized. The ATA/66 bus locations at the front didn't. Again, IIRC.

Let me know if this worked.
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: Buzz
Date: October 25, 2010 07:21PM
I dug out the OEM install discs, and reinstalled 9.2.2 onto the OS X IDE drive, then copied some of the guts of the system folder over to the other IDE drive (both on the ATA/100 bus), and both still have some issues getting fully booted w/ a reasonable assortment of extensions, but they are showing everything now. It boots w/ extensions off, and all drives now show up, but I got as far as creating what I hoped would be a workable set of extensions, but alas, no go. It's running a modded Radeon 9600XT dual DVI, that IIRC, didn't make it into that machine until I made it into a full time OS X'er... I think it was probably running the original Radeon 9000 when I used it as a dual booter... will have to ask Harbourmaster to bring the 9000 back for some testing, unless I can get the extensions under control first. At least some progress is being made, and it appears to be narrowing itself down to some extensions conflicts, and possibly a video card compatibility issue... though I'm assuming that since it work in 9.2.2 w/ extensions off, any video issue is also extension related. During a couple restarts, everything looked OK, but the mouse click wouldn't register; it would move, but not click after it finished booting... I did try opening an icon just as it finished its boot cycle, and it opened the one folder, then stopped working... it's as though whatever the last thing that loaded killed the mouse. Needs more research.



Sometimes it is what it is...
and then there's times when it's really better.



==
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Re: OK, who remembers OS 9...? IDE vs. SCSI help needed.
Posted by: gabester
Date: October 26, 2010 01:53PM
A trick I used was set the clock to display with seconds ticking - you can tell then whether your Mac is actually frozen or if you have some kind of IO extension issue.

Absolutely correct that the MDD's 100Mhz ATA bus is a special extension/driver (it might be embedded in the System file)... so it needs to be installed via the OS install/restore media that came with the MDD because there is NO later release of OS 9 that includes that driver.

I'm racking my brain trying to remember some obscure driver conflicts I remember from OS 9 days... if I recall there was an Apple Audio Driver that didn't play nice with something else that was fairly common in graphic designers' computers back in the day, but only when a 3rd standard apple extension was also present.
g=
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