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God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: spearmint
Date: May 26, 2006 08:14PM
I had a horrifying trip today on the 680 from San Jose to Vallejo and eventually Napa and back. At one point traffic was doing about 60 and came to a dead stop. I was not prepared for the new Honda in front of me to come to a complete halt. I was already figuring damages but my trusty Regal has ABS and I slammed on the brakes and ended up more than a car length behind. I have never experienced a stop like that. Every other car I have owned would have skidded and smashed into the Honda and a lot of other mayhem.

Driving 75 in heavy traffic still frightens me but I sure feel safer now. Thank you whoever the engineers were that came out with this little miracle.




Da Good Life
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: 68shelbymustang
Date: May 26, 2006 08:28PM
Amen. I had a similar situation on I-75 through Atlanta a few years ago. Went from 75 to 0 REAL quick. I did need a change of shorts afterwards though.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: kap
Date: May 26, 2006 08:42PM
Years ago I had a somewhat similar occurrence with a few exceptions: 45 miles per hour to 0 in a 87 Honda Accord hatchback; stopped a couple of feet away from the car in front of me; the unmistakable smell of burnt rubber and smoke coming from the hard braking. I was not tailgaiting, which is quite common a driving method in CA.

Kap



SoCal for now.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: blooz
Date: May 26, 2006 08:44PM
Glad you're okay, 'mint. The basement would be lonely without you.



And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once.
—Friedrich Nietzsche
Western Massachusetts
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: michaelb
Date: May 26, 2006 08:48PM
I am glad you are ok. I could be wrong but I don't think ABS brakes actually reduce stopping distance on dry pavement (and there may be some data that under some circumstances they can increase the distance). They really only come into play on wet or icy surfaces. I love ABS though and wouldn't drive a car without it.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: elmo3
Date: May 26, 2006 09:04PM
That's correct.

Mainly, what ABS does is keep you in control during braking. It allows the novice to just slam the brakes as hard as he can, without having to think about threshold braking; it modulates the brakes so that the wheels keep turning, which in turn allows the driver to have complete control over the direction of the vehicle. Without this, with the tires skidding and not turning, the driver has no control over the direction of the car.



---------------


In the words of DharmaDog: "it may or may not be utter horse@#$%&, but it shouldn't be dismissed simply because it doesn't agree with your opinion."

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Trying is the first step to failure. -- Homer Simpson
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: spearmint
Date: May 26, 2006 09:13PM
I am sure the ABS works on hard pavement much better than skidding out of control particularly at high speed. I have been driving since they invented dirt and I was just amazed.

Yes tailgating is somewhat prevalent in CA. Lot of drivers in SUVs think intimidating is okay as a good driving skill. A lot of them cannot see over the dashboard here also.There should be a test before you can drive a big SUV that you can see traffic, particularly behind you. A five foot person in a Expedition means change lanes as far as away from them as you can. This TV thing for seeing in the rear is absolutely crazy.

Thanks for the good wishes and for a while I may not be as obnoxious for a couple days. Maybe not.




Da Good Life



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2006 09:19PM by spearmint.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: elmo3
Date: May 26, 2006 09:37PM
Quote
spearmint
I am sure the ABS works on hard pavement much better than skidding out of control particularly at high speed.

for the reasons I outlined.

For stopping more quickly or in a shorter space....not necessarily. But you had the control available to you to steer the car away from the onrushing hazard.



---------------


In the words of DharmaDog: "it may or may not be utter horse@#$%&, but it shouldn't be dismissed simply because it doesn't agree with your opinion."

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Trying is the first step to failure. -- Homer Simpson
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: May 26, 2006 09:42PM
Ah mint- glad you made it, enjoy the adrenalin letdown, the euphoric feeling of survival, and the clean, crisp taste of that congratulatory brew when you returned to the sanctity and safety of your basement.

Then go out and buy a set of mil-surplus anti-tank weapons and waste the suckers next time...
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: spearmint
Date: May 26, 2006 10:39PM
cbelt 3. LOL. However I was thinking lasers. Yeah and there are some Foster's involved down here in the depths.




Da Good Life
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: rexrzer
Date: May 26, 2006 10:49PM
ABS certainly DOES shorten the distance of braking, ie panic stopping, on dry pavement. By modulating the brakeline pressure up to 250X per second at maximum applications, 4-wheel ABS prevents each wheel, independently of the others, to "chatter until a stop is effected" and prevents wheel lock-up (ie skidding). If the car doesn't have ABS, it would skid uncontrollably, stopping at a farther distance than an ABS-equipped vehicle would stop.

IIRC, it was BMW who started selling cars in the USA with 4-wheel ABS before anyone else did. The year was 1983, and the cars first sold with ABS were the 733i/iL and the 533i. In 1984, all BMW cars had ABS as standard equipment except for the 318i, where it was an option. IIRC more than 90% of 318i's sold in California came into the state with ABS though. At the time, I worked for BMW.smiling smiley

________________



What's the difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make some sense.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: BigGuynRusty
Date: May 26, 2006 11:17PM
Quote
rexrzer
IIRC, it was BMW who started selling cars in the USA with 4-wheel ABS before anyone else did. The year was 1983, and the cars first sold with ABS were the 733i/iL and the 533i. In 1984, all BMW cars had ABS as standard equipment except for the 318i, where it was an option. IIRC more than 90% of 318i's sold in California came into the state with ABS though. At the time, I worked for BMW.<img class="mod_smileys_img" src="smileys/smilie1.gif" alt="smiling smiley" title="smiling smiley"/>
<br />

<br />
________________<br />
<br />
What's the difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make some sense.

Not arguing but...
"The first car (worldwide) to have ABS fitted as standard (across the entire range) was the Ford Granada Mk 3 (of 1985).
The German firm Bosch had been developing anti-lock braking technology since the 1930s, but the first production cars using Bosch's electronic system became available in 1978. They first appeared in trucks and the Mercedes-Benz S-Class.

BGnR
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: kj
Date: May 26, 2006 11:20PM
I believe the regal has pretty decent disc breaks on all 4 corners too. At least mine (that I'm selling right now) does. Fwiw, I don't see any fundamental difference between wet pavement and dry pavement. Just two points on a continuum. I would think abs would be more likely to be invoked on ice, but I'm sure it's possible to get it to kick in on pavement too. kj.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: Carm
Date: May 26, 2006 11:38PM
Missed someone recently when it rained. I was turning a corner on wet pavement. ABS kicked in and I missed the car by about three feet.

Carm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/26/2006 11:39PM by Carm.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: spearmint
Date: May 26, 2006 11:44PM
I find it hard it to believe people think can control your car in microsececonds as fast and quick as ABS. I am talking way less than a second. ABS is quicker and my Buick Sedan will stop quicker. Also are your tires and brake pads uniform and perfect? I do not have to worry. I will still stop shorter.

Just like manual transmissions I cannot think of any advantages of manual braking. If you want to shift go Tiptronic. Don't tell me though that you are so perfect there is not a chance your foot will not go off the clutch and cause trouble. It's not a race it's crowded traffic. NHRA on the weekend but no clutches otherwise IMHO. Every manual fanatic I know leaves the car in gear for braking. Dangerous. I always did neutral and brake.




Da Good Life
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 27, 2006 12:18AM
Rusty, didn't GM have some sort of anti-lock in the mid to late 70s on the full size cars? 77-78 LeSabre/Riv maybe? (And Toronado)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2006 12:19AM by Racer X.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: Big Daddy Cool
Date: May 27, 2006 12:42AM
Yes, I recall Toronados having it first too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2006 12:43AM by Big Daddy Cool.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 27, 2006 01:13AM
Caddy had airbags as an option in '76. The company i work for made them.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: shadow
Date: May 27, 2006 06:33AM
Same thing happened to me a few years ago...

Driving up the Northeast Extension in SE PA on a Friday afternoon. The traffic was extremely heavy. <sarcasm>Since rapidly switching between lanes will get you there faster in this situation</sarcasm>, a car three cars up in the right lane decided it wanted to be in the left lane.

The person he cut off went from 60 to a dead stop. The two people in front and the one behind were able to stop in time (thanks ABS).

The semi behind him wasn't so lucky.

He started to jackknife (which I had a great view of in my rear / side view mirrors !), but was able to cut right between two cars and get his rig off the road. Unfortunately, just beyond the shoulder was a 3' high guard rail and 40' embankment. He probably had to do two complete rolls before getting to the bottom.

I jammed my car onto the shoulder and started down the hill, preparing for the worst.

Out pops the driver. He wasn't wearing a seatbelt, but had only a small scratch on his forearm. He didn't even drop his lit cigar.

- Shadow
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: May 27, 2006 10:49AM
Don't they still say to not let up on the brake pedal in emergency type stop, that it
takes a second or two for the ABS to reset if you do let up on it?

I found this slogan started by "Motorweek" PBS program:

"SSS"

"If your car is equipped with an ABS system, your slogan for remembering how the system works should be “ STOMP, STAY AND STEER”. You should “STOMP” on the brakes in a panic stop, “STAY” on the brakes [i.e., don’t lift your foot!], and “STEER” around the problem. The anti-lock brakes only work correctly if you hit the brakes and leave your foot FIRMLY on the pedal. You don’t ‘pump’ an ABS system!"



Grateful11
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: spearmint
Date: May 27, 2006 10:55AM
If you "stomp" with ABS there is no steering involved. You just come to a dead stop in a hurry.




Da Good Life
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: sscutchen
Date: May 27, 2006 11:54AM
If you think ABS is important and worthwhile, be sure to invest in high performance tires the next time you need them

Tires can easily make a 10-15 ft difference in stopping distance from 70. Maybe as much as 2 car lengths. That is huge.

Similar benefit in emergency manouvers as well.

Yet folks will save $40 a tire or spend the oomney on hard rubber that will "last a long time" rather than go for high performance.

High performance tires are cheap insurance.





Don't ask who the bell's for, dude. It's you.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: elmo3
Date: May 27, 2006 12:45PM
Quote
spearmint
If you "stomp" with ABS there is no steering involved. You just come to a dead stop in a hurry.

You don't take the opportunity to steer away from the guy in front of you? You just stomp on the brakes and keep going for him?

You shouldn't be on the road.



---------------


In the words of DharmaDog: &amp;quot;it may or may not be utter horse@#$%&, but it shouldn't be dismissed simply because it doesn't agree with your opinion.&amp;quot;

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Trying is the first step to failure. -- Homer Simpson
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: sscutchen
Date: May 27, 2006 03:22PM
Quote
elmo3
You shouldn't be on the road.

weak ass bate





Don't ask who the bell's for, dude. It's you.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: elmo3
Date: May 27, 2006 05:01PM
Quote
sscutchen
weak ass bate

"bate"?

Not bait at all. Fact. He tells the world that he doesn't steer around an accident, even when given ABS which automates 99% of the process by keeping the wheels turning?

He's a menace to other drivers.



---------------


In the words of DharmaDog: &amp;quot;it may or may not be utter horse@#$%&, but it shouldn't be dismissed simply because it doesn't agree with your opinion.&amp;quot;

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Trying is the first step to failure. -- Homer Simpson
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: Racer X
Date: May 27, 2006 05:53PM
That's OK elmo, you told us you are a known felon, so you are still one up on him.
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Re: God bless the inventor of ABS brakes.
Posted by: sscutchen
Date: May 27, 2006 10:52PM
Quote
elmo3
He tells the world that he doesn't steer around an accident, even when given ABS which automates 99% of the process by keeping the wheels turning?

OK. I'll take the hook.

ABS will allow you to turn while under braking. At the expense of longer braking distance.

There is only so much traction available between the tires and the ground. If you turn the wheels while at the limit, you are using some for stopping and some for generating cornering force. Without ABS, if you were braking at the limit, this extra load exceeds the tires' ability, and causes the front tires to wash out. You understeer into what you were trying to steer around.

If you have ABS to keep you on the limit of adhesion you can make this tradeoff and stay under control. But you are no longer using all of the available grip for braking force. You've traded some for cornering force. So you will stop in a longer distance.

It's a zero sum game. ABS cannot create more traction to let you stop in the same distance and turn as well.

So under a panic stop with ABS you have decisions to make. Do you have enough time to turn the wheels and still clear the car in front? (Or will you now hit, say, a corner? In which case, you may be better off taking your chances using everything available to stop in time, which is what the OP did in this case.) And do you have a place to go that is less dangerous than staying straight? (Or will you hit the Armco or on coming traffic or a pedestrian-filled sidewalk...)

ABS is a great safety device. But it doesn't generate friction where it doesn't exist.





Don't ask who the bell's for, dude. It's you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/2006 10:53PM by sscutchen.
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