My teachers way back when said it sometimes was, but someone tried to tell me it wasn't. What do you think?

It is generally considered a vowel when it's paired to make a dipthong. ie: how, awe, etc.

You have no idea how thrilled I am to read what you said!!! Somehow I managed to get the same idea in my head, however, instead of providing an explanation like Pops just did, the last person I mentioned it to looked at me like I was totally and completely out of my mind - not to mention that I was considered totally lacking in basic knowledge of the English language. Whew. Spelling and grammar aren't my particular strong points, but who in the world would have ever just made up something like that? Were you taught something like "A, E, I, O, U and sometimes Y and W"? It rhymed, which is why I remembered it. There's probably a rational explanation for the 'Y' too, so would someone enlighten me?

I've gotta ask, Dennis S., how old are you? I'm wondering if this was something teachers back in the '50s got hung up on for a while. I know my kids never learned this. They looked at me like I was crazy, too.

Y can sound like a long "i" as in "Why", "by" etc.
Y can sound like a long "e" as in the ending of "easy", "lightly" etc.

I heard also "y" too. But when I moved across the country I was laughed at for thinking "sometimes y."

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"A, E, I, O, U and sometimes W and Y" is how I remember it. I'm 56 and I run into all kinds of rules I feel like I have to break, just to keep the flow going, like:

• Never end a sentence with a preposition
• Never start a sentence with "And"

I have relaxed a lot, but still get perturbed at some things, especially "between you and I". I mark people down when they say that, as well as "irregardless" and "mute point".

What made me ask the origial question is, I chastised someone on another board when they wrote about a married couple "exchanging vowels". Some whippersnapper jumped me for saying "W" was sometimes a vowel. and for being hypercritical about typos. Sorry, but that was not a typo.

Yes, I too was taught "A, E, I, O, U, sometimes Y" ... the argument I seem to recall being that it isn't possible to have a real word with only consonants and no vowels. Therefore the Y in "why" is acting as a vowel. (You might argue that the W is, but the problem with that are words like "cry" and "by"... whereas it's not possible to have a real word with only a W in it and no vowel.) But of course what I was taught might be wrong...

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/2006 06:18PM by PeterB.

"...the argument I seem to recall being that it isn't possible to have a real word with only consonants and no vowels. Therefore the Y in "why" is acting as a vowel. (You might argue that the W is, but the problem with that are words like "cry" and "by"... whereas it's not possible to have a real word with only a W in it and no vowel.)"

That makes good sense. I've never heard that before.

OK, I just turned 60, and I feel vindicated!!!! At last!

M A V I C, I went to school in Tacoma, and you're also a lot younger than I am, so we can rule out it being something taught during the dark ages. All of those people who laughed at us were probably just trying to cover up for being so poorly educated.

Dennis, there's a better rhyme if you switch the W and Y! If it hadn't been for the way it flowed, I'm sure it would have been one of those things I could have forgotten very easily.

And, I like to break some grammar rules every once in a while, too. (Yes, I did that on purpose.)

One of my pet peeves are those people who take a few moments to become "orientated". Do you suppose they carry compasses so they know when they're facing East?

Quote
Dennis S
"...the argument I seem to recall being that it isn't possible to have a real word with only consonants and no vowels. Therefore the Y in "why" is acting as a vowel. (You might argue that the W is, but the problem with that are words like "cry" and "by"... whereas it's not possible to have a real word with only a W in it and no vowel.)"

That makes good sense. I've never heard that before.

Yup, though Googling it just now, I've read two or three different perspectives:

[www.straightdope.com]
[pbskids.org]
[www.angelfire.com]
[phrontistery.info]

... with the exception of a few odd Welsh words, like cwm and crwth, W doesn't act as a "normal" vowel. Though I do notice that the Welsh seem to have a thing for using the weird vowel choices, e.g., the proper name Bryn...

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AlphaDog, I originally learned "sometimes y" in the Southwest. When I lived east of the mountains, up here, was where I was flogged for saying "sometimes y." After that, I never mentioned it. So I can't attest to what those west of the mountains are taught.

My life with English has not been good. When I learned German, I did well with that. As far as a language goes, I like German more. Its rules are broken less. It makes more sense overall.

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The thing to understand is that descriptive words like "vowels" and "consonants" are attempts to quantify a phenomenon that is quite variable. The whole matter of quantifying parts of speech is an artificial construct that can be very subjective at times.

Are there only 5 vowels? Languages other than English may have more or fewer symbols to represent their vowels and consonants. Does that mean that there are more or fewer vowels in those languages? Or are there really many vowel sounds that we group into 5 sound-categories and call vowels as a kind of shorthand?

Here's the way it works in as definite a way that I can present it...

Vowels are sounds made with the back of the throat and the lips open. They are associated with the letters "a," "e," "i," "o" and "u."

Consonants are sounds that require some stricture -- a closing of the airway -- to make the sound. A "w" is used as a consonant in a word like "wrench."

Glide-consonants or semi-vowels are things that work like consonants when they are in front of a vowel, but sound like vowels when they come after a vowel. "W" and "y" are considered glide consonants because they they require a substantial deformation of the tongue to make the sound, but when paired after a vowel, they are pronounced as vowels with an open airway.

The proper place for a "w" in speech is also confounded by the use of the "w" where a double-"o" sound would come. In words such as "weather" and "witch" the "w" is substituting for TWO vowel-letters.

Because they don't quite fit in as regular consonants and are often substituted for the regular vowel-symbols in written words, there is a continuing debate over where "w" and "y" belong as parts of speech.

In general, however, you are on safe ground when you suggest that a "w" or a "y" is a vowel when it's used as a placeholder for one of the regular vowels in a diphthong and a "y" is also a vowel when used in place of any of the traditional vowels.

"How," for example, uses "w" in lieu of a "u." And the "y" in "yes" substitutes for an "e."

If you really want to get into it, you should look into where i, u and e really fall into the spectrum. A hard or high "e" can be a consanant, as can an "i" in a word such as "indian" or a "u" in a word such as "anguish." As a result, some people call THEM semi-vowels!

and I thought I was on the Political Forum for a second.

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Grateful11

W is an epithet, at times.

Where's ghoti when you need him?

the big 5 are always vowels, and Y is a sometimes stand-alone vowel, as well as being a sometimes stand-alone consonant, as well as being a willing participant in diphthongy thingies... truly a multi-faceted personality. W, in addition to being a presidential nick, a fancy hotel name/logo combo, occasionally also functions as a vowel, generally as the trailer in a diphthong, again a multi-faceted personality. the hang up with W, is that it is somewhat farther removed from pure voweling than the big 5 and cousin Y. the answer to the original question, "Is "W" ever a vowel?", is yes, because of the inclusion of "ever". had it been stripped down to, "Is "W" a vowel?", a simple yes/no response would not be appropriate. that's like trying to answer, "which one of the 26 'Deal or No Deal' chicks is the hottest?", which certainly requires much rigorous debate, as well as being much more pleasant to think about.

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and then there's times when it's really better.



==

Great post, MacMagus.

Are you a speech pathologist, or just pathological?

Interesting information!

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perhaps double-u is a vowel... Amon Duul!

> Are you a speech pathologist, or just pathological?

English was one of my college majors.

Quote
MacMagus
> Are you a speech pathologist, or just pathological?

English was one of my college majors.

your treatise seems to come more from the PhD level than undergrad, however. nice.