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What's happening in London?
Posted by: Dakota
Date: August 09, 2011 11:48AM
The last time I saw London burn like this Luftwaffe was in the sky. The news keeps showing fires and riots but I have yet to read a convincing explanation as to why it is happening. I believe we have members living there.



After you discover you're riding a dead horse, your best strategy is to dismount.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: August 09, 2011 12:02PM
macresource.com



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: August 09, 2011 12:02PM
I doubt it is possible to discuss this without the topic moving to the other side.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: JoeM
Date: August 09, 2011 12:05PM
Are they roiling?



JoeM
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: the_poochies
Date: August 09, 2011 12:05PM
[youtu.be]
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: jdc
Date: August 09, 2011 12:10PM






Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Manlove
Date: August 09, 2011 12:14PM
This is a reasonable summation-
[www.independent.co.uk]

Or at the least, one opinion amongst many.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: billb
Date: August 09, 2011 12:15PM
Austerity and have-nots.

The burning seems to be organized looting and mayhem aided, unfortunately with blackberry messenger.
power in numbers not so much for fun this time, or in the case of egyptian rebellion, facebook and twitter.
Blackberries are apparently quite popular in U.K. especially with younger folk who are right now un and under- employed.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: voodoopenguin
Date: August 09, 2011 12:17PM
What has happened is that a new website set up to co-ordinate voluntary help for clearing up crashed temporarily due to the phenomenal response. I take heart in that news story.

Technology has helped the antisocial (very tame adjective) b*****ds (OK, not so tame) as they are using the heavily secure Blackberry messaging to tell their gang members where to strike next. Technology should help in the prosecution of these criminals as we do have CCTV almost everywhere and the media have been using long distance lenses to film them.

It has nothing to do with protesting, it's a mix of mindless vandalism and selfish looting/stealing. The original protest was peaceful and the organisers were very quick to totally dissociate themselves from the criminal activity that then followed and condemn it outright.

Paul
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: August 09, 2011 12:31PM
Quote
Voodoopenguin
The original protest was peaceful and the organisers were very quick to totally dissociate themselves from the criminal activity that then followed and condemn it outright.

And in 10 years, it'll come out that "oh, yeah... we were directing the gangs via blackberry the whole time... that way we could play innocent for the press, but direct the violence" .
Wouldn't be the first time a violent movement stayed "clean" in public....

Then again, I'm a pessimist... so I'd be happy to be wrong.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: August 09, 2011 12:31PM
cbelt has a thread on this about half a page down. I think unemployment and underemployment are at the root. I haven't kept up on it.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Will Collier
Date: August 09, 2011 12:43PM
It'd be silly to try and boil down the "why did this start?" to one or two things; anybody trying to make that determination at this point would just shoehorn it into their own ideological preferences.

"Why is it still going on?", though, looks an awful lot like mayhem for mayhem's sake.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 12:59PM by Will Collier.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Bernie
Date: August 09, 2011 12:55PM
I Guess this is the wrong side to discuss Britain's gun laws.

I guess this is the wrong side to discuss US gun laws.

I think I need another Shot gun and some more bird shot. It is less lethal than those plastic bullets and broader pattern.




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: August 09, 2011 01:04PM
Nothing takes the wind out of the "casual looters" sails like REAL bullets...
That, of course, is for the London authorities to decide... and may cause as many troubles as it solves.
But the streets would clear in a damn hurry after the first few vandals hit the pavement like a sack of potatoes.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Manlove
Date: August 09, 2011 01:10PM
Nice one Paul, advocating shooting kids who have nothing. Guns are the answer.
!
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: August 09, 2011 01:14PM
And your opinion appears to be that burning, looting, and vandalizing are perfectly acceptable...
Also, you might try reading my post a little more carefully, you seem to have missed the second sentence.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: August 09, 2011 01:23PM
Quote
Manlove
Nice one Paul, advocating shooting kids who have nothing Looters.
!

Fixed that for you. Most of these "kids" are over 18, which makes them adults.



C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Throwback Thursday Signature:
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Bernie
Date: August 09, 2011 01:24PM
Bird shot is safer than rubber bullets. Bird shot is safer than tazers.




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Will Collier
Date: August 09, 2011 01:30PM
Quote
Manlove
Nice one Paul, advocating shooting kids who have nothing. Guns are the answer.
!

Guns are a perfectly good answer if the question is, "What are you going to do if I try to burn your house/business to the ground?"
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Manlove
Date: August 09, 2011 01:32PM
I read your sentences, thanks.
And a lot of these people are not over 18. They really are kids. Misguided, poor, unemployed, under-educated, kids. Shooting them is not really an option.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Manlove
Date: August 09, 2011 01:36PM
And this is why America is so safe. "Hey, stop whatever it is that you're doing that I don't like, or I will shoot you."
In the civilized world there is this funny thing could 'law'. Just because some people are breaking it, that does not give us the right to break it in turn.
Having said that, I would kill anyone who was threatening to kill my child...law be damned.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Will Collier
Date: August 09, 2011 01:36PM
Quote
Manlove
I read your sentences, thanks.
And a lot of these people are not over 18. They really are kids. Misguided, poor, unemployed, under-educated, kids. Shooting them is not really an option.

It sure as hell is if they're attacking your family and/or home.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Will Collier
Date: August 09, 2011 01:38PM
Quote
Manlove
And this is why America is so safe. "Hey, stop whatever it is that you're doing that I don't like, or I will shoot you."

Nice condescension. Yes, that's exactly what it's like in America... in a few movies.

How civilized is London today?
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: August 09, 2011 01:49PM
Quote
Manlove
And this is why America is so safe. "Hey, stop whatever it is that you're doing that I don't like, or I will shoot you."
In the civilized world there is this funny thing could 'law'. Just because some people are breaking it, that does not give us the right to break it in turn.
Having said that, I would kill anyone who was threatening to kill my child...law be damned.

So it's PERFECTLY acceptable, even desirable, for this "poor uneducated kids" to simply TAKE what they want with no consequences.
That is not "civilization".
That's anarchy.
When people burn, loot, and vandalize a city, it's incumbent on CIVILIZED people to stop them. Not wring their hands and pontificate about how bad the looters lives are.

Killing them is not a first resort. But it IS part of CIVILIZATIONS tool-kit.
Taking with violence what belongs to someone else is NEVER acceptable, and sometimes FORCE must be used to punctuate that natural law of civilization.

Steal a loaf of my bread, and I'll see to it the police and courts deal with you.
Try to burn down my livelihood, my way to feed my family, and I'll kill you, and your children if they're throwing fire bombs along side you.



Paul F.
-----
A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Lucius Annaeus Seneca c. 5 BC - 65 AD
----
Good is the enemy of Excellent. Talent is not necessary for Excellence.
Persistence is necessary for Excellence. And Persistence is a Decision.

--

--

--
Eureka, CA
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: hal
Date: August 09, 2011 01:54PM
"So it's PERFECTLY acceptable, even desirable, for this "poor uneducated kids" to simply TAKE what they want with no consequences."

the consequences of stealing a macbook (or some thing) should not be death. That's a penalty WAY out of line for the crime. What the hell are you thinking?
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: billb
Date: August 09, 2011 01:54PM
I rather doubt the Mark Duggan character that was shot by police died of wishful thinking.

and he wasn't a looter (supposedly)

and the cops have deterred many of the looters by simply firing into the air and a show of force.
There have been unfortunately , fewer police than looters and thugs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 01:59PM by billb.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: August 09, 2011 01:57PM
Just like the LA rioters used Rodney King as an excuse to 'get some', the London rioters are using this fellow as their excuse.

Straight bloody lawlessness. Send in the Royal Marines.. hell, better yet send the Special Boat Squadron. They'll sort those bahsatds out.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 09, 2011 02:00PM
Quote
Paul F.
So it's PERFECTLY acceptable, even desirable, for this "poor uneducated kids" to simply TAKE what they want with no consequences.
That is not "civilization".
That's anarchy.

That's nothing more than a straw man. Nobody said that but you.

What was expressed that it is not OK to kill somebody just because they are engaging in property crimes (i.e. stealing your stuff).

Quote
Will Collier
Quote
Manlove
I read your sentences, thanks. And a lot of these people are not over 18. They really are kids. Misguided, poor, unemployed, under-educated, kids. Shooting them is not really an option.

It sure as hell is if they're attacking your family and/or home.

I completely agree if they're attacking your family. I completely disagree if they're looting or vandalizing your property. I think the police in both nations would agree.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 02:01PM by davester.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: (vikm)
Date: August 09, 2011 02:01PM
"Panic on the streets of London
Panic on the streets of Birmingham
I wonder to myself
Could life ever be sane again ?
The Leeds side-streets that you slip down
I wonder to myself
Hopes may rise on the Grasmere
But Honey Pie, you're not safe here
So you run down
To the safety of the town
But there's Panic on the streets of Carlisle
Dublin, Dundee, Humberside
I wonder to myself..."

[www.youtube.com]
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Will Collier
Date: August 09, 2011 02:07PM
Quote
davester


Quote
Will Collier
Quote
Manlove
I read your sentences, thanks. And a lot of these people are not over 18. They really are kids. Misguided, poor, unemployed, under-educated, kids. Shooting them is not really an option.

It sure as hell is if they're attacking your family and/or home.

I completely agree if they're attacking your family. I completely disagree if they're looting or vandalizing your property. I think the police in both nations would agree.

You would be incorrect in the last, if that nation is the one I'm sitting in at the moment.

I've never understood the official notion in the UK that citizens have no right to defend themselves or their property against criminals. As we say around here, "when seconds count, the police are minutes away."
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: August 09, 2011 02:14PM
Quote
Paul F.
Nothing takes the wind out of the "casual looters" sails like REAL bullets...
That, of course, is for the London authorities to decide... and may cause as many troubles as it solves.
But the streets would clear in a damn hurry after the first few vandals hit the pavement like a sack of potatoes.

I've got no problem with that. Same thing when protestors throw rocks and bottles. Use rubber bullets when possible. Destroying a city is not "protesting" it is vandalizing and looting.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: voodoopenguin
Date: August 09, 2011 02:17PM
Quote
Will Collier
I've never understood the official notion in the UK that citizens have no right to defend themselves or their property against criminals.

Did you read that somewhere or just passing on gossip? Let's just say that what you wrote is false.

Paul
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 09, 2011 02:18PM
Quote
Will Collier
Quote
davester
[I completely disagree if they're looting or vandalizing your property. I think the police in both nations would agree.

You would be incorrect in the last, if that nation is the one I'm sitting in at the moment.

I don't believe that you are correct. You can't shoot someone in the US for property crime. You can only shoot a person if you feel that you or your family is in danger, whether or not it's related to a property crime. This is not different in the UK or US.

It's hard to believe that there are people who think it is OK to execute another human merely for stealing "stuff".



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 02:20PM by davester.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: August 09, 2011 02:20PM
Quote
cbelt3
Just like the LA rioters used Rodney King as an excuse to 'get some', the London rioters are using this fellow as their excuse.

Straight bloody lawlessness. Send in the Royal Marines.. hell, better yet send the Special Boat Squadron. They'll sort those bahsatds out.

Every time I think of the LA rioters, I can't help but remember the Koreans who patrolled their store's roofs with shotguns. Somehow, and I am sure completely coincidentally, their stores weren't vandalized and looted.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Will Collier
Date: August 09, 2011 02:34PM
Quote
voodoopenguin
Quote
Will Collier
I've never understood the official notion in the UK that citizens have no right to defend themselves or their property against criminals.

Did you read that somewhere or just passing on gossip? Let's just say that what you wrote is false.

Paul

It was certainly true for Tony Martin. When the PM and Home Secretary feel compelled to make public statements that "homeowners would not be prosecuted for using reasonable force to defend their homes," it's not because of gossip (and that happened just two months ago).
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Will Collier
Date: August 09, 2011 02:38PM
Quote
davester
Quote
Will Collier
Quote
davester
[I completely disagree if they're looting or vandalizing your property. I think the police in both nations would agree.

You would be incorrect in the last, if that nation is the one I'm sitting in at the moment.

I don't believe that you are correct. You can't shoot someone in the US for property crime. You can only shoot a person if you feel that you or your family is in danger, whether or not it's related to a property crime. This is not different in the UK or US.

It's hard to believe that there are people who think it is OK to execute another human merely for stealing "stuff".

I would agree that you can't (legally) shoot somebody for, say, spray-painting the side of your house. But when that somebody is breaking in a window or a door, I'm not going to wait to see whether they're just looking for goodies, and I'm certainly not going to fault a business owner for using firearms to defend what amounts to years of his life from thieves or firebugs.

My great-grandfather--at age 90--shot and killed a would-be thief who'd broken into his home (the crook's last words were, "I'm too fast for you, old man" ). Do you think he was in the wrong?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 02:38PM by Will Collier.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 09, 2011 02:55PM
Quote
Will Collier
My great-grandfather--at age 90--shot and killed a would-be thief who'd broken into his home (the crook's last words were, "I'm too fast for you, old man" ). Do you think he was in the wrong?

It doesn't matter how old your great grandfather was at the time. If he didn't feel that he was in danger then it was illegal and in my opinion utterly wrong to kill somebody who was only stealing property. Whether meted out by an individual or the court, the death penalty is in no way a just penalty for theft.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Will Collier
Date: August 09, 2011 02:59PM
Quote
davester
Quote
Will Collier
My great-grandfather--at age 90--shot and killed a would-be thief who'd broken into his home (the crook's last words were, "I'm too fast for you, old man" ). Do you think he was in the wrong?

It doesn't matter how old your great grandfather was at the time. If he didn't feel that he was in danger then it was illegal and in my opinion utterly wrong to kill somebody who was only stealing property. Whether meted out by an individual or the court, the death penalty is in no way a just penalty for theft.

So you believe he should have done... what? Why wouldn't he feel that he was in danger when a guy he doesn't know has just jimmied a window and entered his home?
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: freeradical
Date: August 09, 2011 03:06PM
Quote
Will Collier
Quote
davester
Quote
Will Collier
My great-grandfather--at age 90--shot and killed a would-be thief who'd broken into his home (the crook's last words were, "I'm too fast for you, old man" ). Do you think he was in the wrong?

It doesn't matter how old your great grandfather was at the time. If he didn't feel that he was in danger then it was illegal and in my opinion utterly wrong to kill somebody who was only stealing property. Whether meted out by an individual or the court, the death penalty is in no way a just penalty for theft.

So you believe he should have done... what? Why wouldn't he feel that he was in danger when a guy he doesn't know has just jimmied a window and entered his home?

If someone breaks into my home, I'm going to assume that they're armed.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 09, 2011 03:06PM
Quote
Will Collier
Why wouldn't he feel that he was in danger when a guy he doesn't know has just jimmied a window and entered his home?

Did you read my post completely? I didn't say that. I only qualified the justification, which was cited in my original post. You didn't specify in your OP whether he felt he was in danger, whether he was inside or outside his home, or what. You only specified that the guy was a thief. Don't try to put words into my mouth.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2011 03:07PM by davester.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: hal
Date: August 09, 2011 03:09PM
Keep in mind folks... As badly as Vancouver handled their riot. THe one thing they did right was to back off. The police were out numbered. They tried to contain the madness, but eventually failed.

Once it was out of control, the police just stood back and let it happen. No shots fired. No one killed. Several million$ in damages... It could have been several million$ in damage and several deaths EASILY if some idiot pulled out a gun.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Will Collier
Date: August 09, 2011 03:13PM
Quote
davester
Quote
Will Collier
Why wouldn't he feel that he was in danger when a guy he doesn't know has just jimmied a window and entered his home?

Did you read my post completely? I didn't say that. I only qualified the justification, which was cited in my original post. You didn't specify in your OP whether he felt he was in danger, whether he was inside or outside his home, or what. You only specified that the guy was a thief. Don't try to put words into my mouth.

This happened 30 years ago, and I was a kid at the time, but my assumption is that when somebody breaks into somebody else's home, at the minimum they probably intend to steal stuff. Since the guy (obviously) didn't leave the premises with anything, that will have to remain as supposition on my part.

My question is, assuming that supposition was accurate, what difference would it make? Should Papa Lowery have asked the lowlife whether he intended to just steal stuff, or was he planning to beat up an old man along the way? And what should he have done, had this ridiculous question-and-answer actually occurred, and the intruder had said, "Hey, pops, I'm just here for your TV"?
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Trouble
Date: August 09, 2011 03:19PM
Quote
davester
It doesn't matter how old your great grandfather was at the time. If he didn't feel that he was in danger then it was illegal and in my opinion utterly wrong to kill somebody who was only stealing property. Whether meted out by an individual or the court, the death penalty is in no way a just penalty for theft.

I completely disagree with that. Should the person whose home was broken into actually have to wait until the knife is raised above their head or the gun is drawn before reacting? Sorry, but if someone breaks into another's home then, in my opinion, their life is voluntarily forfeit. There are far too many stories where residents are murdered to prevent witnesses or for no other reason that they just happened to be there.

The best thing to do is avoid a confrontation. If someone thinks there is a criminal in the house, grab the family, lock yourselves in a room, and call the police. But if a confrontation happens, or can't be avoided, IMO it is just pure stupidity to stand there and wait to see the criminal's intention or reaction first.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: slbett
Date: August 09, 2011 03:20PM
Fire is a deadly weapon. Set fire to a building or home that is occupied gives that person a reason to fear for their life. A mob attack on an individual also gives that person a reason to fear for their life. If you have no means of escape, then you have a right to defend your life, including using a gun. However, you can not use deadly force to defend property, period. I also read that American baseball bats are selling briskly. Last time I checked, you could kill someone with a bat or even a knife.

Think it isn't happening here. Ask the people who were attacked at the Wisconsin State Fair. Flash mobs???
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: DP
Date: August 09, 2011 03:28PM
I heard an interview on the radio (don't know what network-was in a cubicle) where a couple of girls who were part of the mobs-and drunk, they admitted-said they were doing this to "show the rich people that they could".
Oy!
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: davester
Date: August 09, 2011 03:45PM
Quote
Trouble
I completely disagree with that. Should the person whose home was broken into actually have to wait until the knife is raised above their head or the gun is drawn before reacting?

Uh what? Either another straw man or you didn't read my post before commenting either.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: freeradical
Date: August 09, 2011 03:46PM
Quote
DP
I heard an interview on the radio (don't know what network-was in a cubicle) where a couple of girls who were part of the mobs-and drunk, they admitted-said they were doing this to "show the rich people that they could".
Oy!


Here you go...

[www.bbc.co.uk]
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: voodoopenguin
Date: August 09, 2011 03:48PM
Quote
Will Collier

It was certainly true for Tony Martin.

Tony Martin had mental health problems, he had refused all help from the police previously about how to secure his property. I do not condone the illegal activities of the burglars but I also do not condone the actions of someone who laid in wait and then shot the burglars using an illegally owned unlicenced gun. It was known that previous burglaries in the area were done by people who ran away at the first hint of detection i.e. a warning shout if disturbed. Martin called out and both the burglars ran away, attempting to escape through a window and while they were trying to exit Martin shot them, the 16 year old died from multiple wounds in his back from the pump action Winchester. Martin's house was secluded with no lights and looked for all the world as if it was an empty property. Still no excuse for the burglar so please don't think I agree with their actions.

You can defend yourself and your property using "reasonable force". Shooting an already fleeing empty handed burglar in the back with an illegal gun is more than "reasonable force".

Paul
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Dakota
Date: August 09, 2011 03:55PM
After a ton of philosophizing and pontification, what will settle this is hot lead. It will come to that sooner or later. It'll just come too late for lives and property. To those loathing use of "deadly" weapon, what kind of weapon does this look to you?





After you discover you're riding a dead horse, your best strategy is to dismount.
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Re: What's happening in London?
Posted by: Dakota
Date: August 09, 2011 03:58PM
Quote
voodoopenguin

You can defend yourself and your property using "reasonable force". Shooting an already fleeing empty handed burglar in the back with an illegal gun is more than "reasonable force".

Paul

Problem is you will find something in every scenario to make it unreasonable to have used force. In fact, the only condition to pass the deadly force use test is for the homeowner to be killed first. Your emphasis on "illegal" gives your intentions away.



After you discover you're riding a dead horse, your best strategy is to dismount.
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