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Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 21, 2012 07:26PM
this may wind up on the other side but maybe not.

just read a really excellent New York Times article on why Apple products can not be manufactured in the US. the focus is Apple but the problems are endemic and indicate a much broader sea change in our country. two quotes stood out to me:

It is hard to estimate how much more it would cost to build iPhones in the United States. However, various academics and manufacturing analysts estimate that because labor is such a small part of technology manufacturing, paying American wages would add up to $65 to each iPhone’s expense. Since Apple’s profits are often hundreds of dollars per phone, building domestically, in theory, would still give the company a healthy reward.

But such calculations are, in many respects, meaningless because building the iPhone in the United States would demand much more than hiring Americans — it would require transforming the national and global economies. Apple executives believe there simply aren’t enough American workers with the skills the company needs or factories with sufficient speed and flexibility.


and

“We shouldn’t be criticized for using Chinese workers,” a current Apple executive said. “The U.S. has stopped producing people with the skills we need.”

As America divides we are losing the mid-wage worker who has more than high school, less than college and willing to get the skills and put in the hours. In China they put in more hours under conditions we would not find comfortable. Another aspect of this is our American sense of independence and individuality which i would never want us to lose. I found this whole article very sobering. it's also long so grab a cup of coffee.

How U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Uncle Wig
Date: January 21, 2012 07:33PM
Very sad. My understanding is that Steve Jobs would have preferred to manufacture in the US. I'm sure he was aware of the goodwill that would have brought to Apple.



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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Black
Date: January 21, 2012 07:34PM
Not long ago, Apple boasted that its products were made in America. Today, few are. Almost all of the 70 million iPhones, 30 million iPads and 59 million other products Apple sold last year were manufactured overseas.
So what exactly is still manufactured here?
Applecare?




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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: sunfalcon
Date: January 21, 2012 07:41PM
The software.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 21, 2012 07:42PM
Quote
sunfalcon
The software.

and the call center. and The Cloud.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Black
Date: January 21, 2012 07:45PM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
sunfalcon
The software.

and the call center. and The Cloud.

Well, apparently the products of the American education system are too slow-witted and thick-fingered to handle those jobs, too.
[www.bloomberg.com]




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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 21, 2012 07:57PM
Quote
Black
Quote
graylocks
Quote
sunfalcon
The software.

and the call center. and The Cloud.

Well, apparently the products of the American education system are too slow-witted and thick-fingered to handle those jobs, too.
[www.bloomberg.com]

i doubt the demographic described in that article are destined to work in a call center. maybe The Cloud but only about a 100 people work The Cloud.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Black
Date: January 21, 2012 08:03PM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
Black
Quote
graylocks
Quote
sunfalcon
The software.

and the call center. and The Cloud.

Well, apparently the products of the American education system are too slow-witted and thick-fingered to handle those jobs, too.
[www.bloomberg.com]

i doubt the demographic described in that article are destined to work in a call center. maybe The Cloud but only about a 100 people work The Cloud.

OK, then, the software.




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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: comaplate
Date: January 21, 2012 08:43PM
In China, they put in more hours under conditions we outlawed as the consequences of the Industrial Revolution became obvious, and as workers organized to demand better working conditions and a greater share of the profits.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 21, 2012 08:48PM
Quote
comaplate
In China, they put in more hours under conditions we outlawed as the consequences of the Industrial Revolution became obvious, and as workers organized to demand better working conditions and a greater share of the profits.

that's what i referenced by conditions we wouldn't find acceptable. however, the article claims that even if Apple paid American wages - and i am assuming with American working conditions - there still wouldn't be enough workers to meet the flexibility, supply chain, and output that Apple, and many other companies, need. apparently, the problems go far beyond China having cheaper labor and in fact labor cost are a relatively small part of the equation.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2012 08:52PM by graylocks.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Dennis S
Date: January 21, 2012 09:19PM
I don't think there are many American workers with the speed, dexterity, attitude, and sticktoitiveness to do the job right, even if the conditions were good.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: January 21, 2012 09:58PM
I'm in total agreement with the educational, skill, and WORK ETHIC limitations found in the American high school 'graduates', based on the experience my company has with... not being able to use them.

Let's go over the arguments:

Wages... well, when you consider that the average non Chinese company must provide housing, food, medical care, etc to their workers on site, AND pay them an increasing wage, the overall cost difference in wages isn't really hugely relevant. Especially in highly automated assembly operations. OK, so that's not an issue.

Dexterity.. the rather racist concept that 'little Chinese people are more dextrous that big fat American people' is... wrong. Sorry. I've seen some Big Mac sucking Uhmericans that kick butt in small part assembly. Yes, technically small finger size is a common benefit for small assembly. Look at any small assembly line in the US... it will often be staffed with smaller men and women. More women. So that's not an issue.

Education.. BINGO !!! American High Schools have completely and utterly abandoned the old concept of preparing students for 'a trade'. Sure, they al give lip service to the idea, but you'll find that most of the 'trade' programs are now based in centralized limited 'trade schools' or the like, and are focused on Union Trades (plumbing, construction, pipe fitting, yadda..). Print reading ? Quality Control ? reading and understanding an assembly sequence ? Naah.

My company is a manufacturing firm.. We do small assembly (PC Boards), large assembly, weldments, and run process equipment. 90% of our new hires don't last the first 3 months. Why ? The biggest problem is WORK ETHIC. Our factory people are paid on a piecework system. And they're only paid for pieces that meet quality requirements. Yes.. you can work all week and not get paid anything. It happens (rarely). If you work hard.. well, it's the only place I've ever been where a person working in the factory can make more than a Vice President. I've seen that happen too.

Most hires just decide it's not worth it, and quit. Or don't cut it, and are let go in the evaluation period. Race/Ethnicity ? Nah... very diverse workforce. Gender ? Nah... diverse that way too. It's just... a willingness to work hard, and 'bring it' every day. And THAT is what we're not teaching American kids.

Finally, the real economic reason why the jobs aren't coming back. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with the workforce.

Fabs. Factories. It's cheaper and easier to build even high tech automated factories and equipment in China. Why ?

Because there are NO intellectual property rules. That's right.. you can steal someone else's design for a chip fab, a robot, whatever. I've seen that happen too. And THAT is the big savings, and the big reason.

Yup. Intellectual property. How's that SOPA/PIPA thingy feel now ?
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Black
Date: January 21, 2012 10:10PM
If anyone's interested, the article linked by Graylocks in the top post is pretty thorough.
Couldn't find anything about "little Chinese people" and dexterity, though.




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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 21, 2012 10:34PM
Quote
cbelt3
Yup. Intellectual property. How's that SOPA/PIPA thingy feel now ?

Not fair cbelt. Trying to legitimize SOPA/PIPA is like legitimizing racial profiling, assuming guilt before innocence, throwing due process out of the window, etc.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: srf1957
Date: January 21, 2012 10:38PM
And it takes 10 years to get thru environmental and nimby lawsuits to build a new anything.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Black
Date: January 21, 2012 11:05PM
Quote
srf1957
And it takes 10 years to get thru environmental and nimby lawsuits to build a new anything.

Don't forget all the benefits US companies need to pay for same sex couples and sex change operations.




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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: comaplate
Date: January 21, 2012 11:07PM
Quote
srf1957
And it takes 10 years to get thru environmental and nimby lawsuits to build a new anything.

Bummer that we don't have a gigantic brown cloud of pollution hanging around like China! (not that we don't have issues of our own).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2012 11:08PM by comaplate.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: john-o
Date: January 21, 2012 11:09PM
Wow, pretty discouraging thread, in terms of where it seems the ol' U S of A is headed...
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: freeradical
Date: January 21, 2012 11:10PM
Quote
Black
Quote
srf1957
And it takes 10 years to get thru environmental and nimby lawsuits to build a new anything.

Don't forget all the benefits US companies need to pay for same sex couples and sex change operations.


nuts smiley
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 21, 2012 11:11PM
Quote
john-o
Wow, pretty discouraging thread, in terms of where it seems the ol' U S of A is headed...

this thread has taken some odd tangents but the article itself definitely left me feeling that this is the end of American life as many of us have known it.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: freeradical
Date: January 21, 2012 11:25PM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
john-o
Wow, pretty discouraging thread, in terms of where it seems the ol' U S of A is headed...

this thread has taken some odd tangents but the article itself definitely left me feeling that this is the end of American life as many of us have known it.

NYT has predicted the end of the US so many times it isn't funny.

During the extremely mild recession of 90-91, the NYT was predicting the end of the world. A very famous politician trumpeted this, and the electorate bought it...

However, they do have a good point. If we do not become more flexible, we're going to have a tough time competing.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: haikuman
Date: January 21, 2012 11:35PM
If we can teach people to use them we can train people to build them.
The core issue is the foundation and character of the individual. ymmv *(>*

I would also challenge politely that building factories here is an issue . . .

[www.cars.com]

The next link is long and possibly interesting. There are also many other directions for new manufacturing me thinks. Motivation, focus and diligence simple keys to growth.

[www.nytimes.com]



“Stay Hungry Stay Foolish"
Steve Jobs

"There are only two mantras yum and yuk mine is yum "
Bernard Mickey Wrangle<>Tom Robbins<> "Still Life With Woodpecker"

"There is a fine line between a rut and a groove"
G.D. Kittredge III

"






Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2012 11:50PM by haikuman.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 22, 2012 12:10AM
Quote
freeradical
NYT has predicted the end of the US so many times it isn't funny.

During the extremely mild recession of 90-91, the NYT was predicting the end of the world. A very famous politician trumpeted this, and the electorate bought it...

However, they do have a good point. If we do not become more flexible, we're going to have a tough time competing.

i would not characterize this article as predicting the end of the US. It is pointing out why we have lost traction. Though I was left with a feeling of the end of the life my generation and those before us have know I didn't take it as the end of the US. I learned why change is going to come even if I have a bit of nostalgia for the way we were. We are not done by a long shot but we need to transform.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: January 22, 2012 12:13AM
I really hope no students and faculty at MIT and Stanford read this. yikes! (but they do have prime real estate that will be up for grabs!)
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: haikuman
Date: January 22, 2012 12:21AM
Very well said ~!~

"""i would not characterize this article as predicting the end of the US. It is pointing out why we have lost traction. Though I was left with a feeling of the end of the life my generation and those before us have know I didn't take it as the end of the US. I learned why change is going to come even if I have a bit of nostalgia for the way we were. We are not done by a long shot but we need to transform."""



“Stay Hungry Stay Foolish"
Steve Jobs

"There are only two mantras yum and yuk mine is yum "
Bernard Mickey Wrangle<>Tom Robbins<> "Still Life With Woodpecker"

"There is a fine line between a rut and a groove"
G.D. Kittredge III

"


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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: slbett
Date: January 22, 2012 12:23AM
Work ethic???? What work ethic?

A few years back I had a employee come to me and ask for a raise. I told him if he could be on time for the next week (5 days) we would talk. Five days later and three days of being at least an hour late he TELLS me if he doesn't get a 25% raise he was quitting. I made out his last check to the minute and shook his hand and wished him well. He could be protected from being let go for being late at least half the time but when he said he was quitting in front of witnesses, he signed his own resignation.

Talk about a priceless look on someone's face.

Very few take pride in their work any more and only want the pay check. Ever notice that attendance is better on payday. No one wants to start at the bottom and earn their way up. I'm sure most people here work with people who refuse to carry their own weight. I still believe in an honest day's work for an honest day's pay. Feel you're not getting paid enough, feel free to work elsewhere. If you just show up to collect a check, then I feel you are stealing a paycheck from me, same as robbing a store or a person. I've had kids 40 years younger than me tell me (their employer) that they shouldn't have to do some jobs because they don't get paid enough. I tell them never mind and just do it myself and then remind them why they didn't make it past their trial period.

Again WORK ETHIC. Where did it go, we have to look outside of America now days.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: GGD
Date: January 22, 2012 12:36AM
Here's what Apple's Fremont CA factory was like around 1990. Very automated.

[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

And here are all of Apple's current job openings.

[www.apple.com]
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: srf1957
Date: January 22, 2012 02:05AM
Quote
comaplate
Quote
srf1957
And it takes 10 years to get thru environmental and nimby lawsuits to build a new anything.

Bummer that we don't have a gigantic brown cloud of pollution hanging around like China! (not that we don't have issues of our own).
a
Around here they are protesting wind towers and natural gas compression towers because of birds and the view they are not very economical but they pollute less than a coal fired generation plant.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: GGD
Date: January 22, 2012 02:25AM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
john-o
Wow, pretty discouraging thread, in terms of where it seems the ol' U S of A is headed...

this thread has taken some odd tangents but the article itself definitely left me feeling that this is the end of American life as many of us have known it.

There's still hope

[www.cbsnews.com]

BTW: That's the high school that Steve Jobs attended.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: IronMac
Date: January 22, 2012 03:13AM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
comaplate
In China, they put in more hours under conditions we outlawed as the consequences of the Industrial Revolution became obvious, and as workers organized to demand better working conditions and a greater share of the profits.

that's what i referenced by conditions we wouldn't find acceptable. however, the article claims that even if Apple paid American wages - and i am assuming with American working conditions - there still wouldn't be enough workers to meet the flexibility, supply chain, and output that Apple, and many other companies, need. apparently, the problems go far beyond China having cheaper labor and in fact labor cost are a relatively small part of the equation.

You said "comfortable" not "acceptable" in your post. As one person in the article noted, how can you find thousands of Americans willing to be woken up in the middle of the night from their dormitory beds? You won't because that sort of situation is illegal and unethical in Western societies.

I'm going to go on a bit of a rant and say (once again) that this situation has arisen because of consumers' demand for the best at the cheapest price. Companies have to respond to this or they go out of business. When a company such as Apple have to go overseas for a particular part, subassembly or device, you will find complementary suppliers growing alongside the primary supplier.

One only has to look at Detroit in the early part of the 20th century to see this same phenomenon as the auto industry blossomed. You have your main automotive manufacturing plant from someone such as GM but then you have the manufacturers of windshields, tires, brakes, etc moving in next door to them.

The sort of situation we are seeing now in China and to a lesser extent in Vietnam and Thailand does not arise overnight, just as it did not spring up overnight in Detroit. It takes time and it's the result of government, companies, shareholders and consumers all looking towards to the bottom line and how much they can make.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Black
Date: January 22, 2012 03:57AM
Quote
IronMac
Quote
graylocks
Quote
comaplate
In China, they put in more hours under conditions we outlawed as the consequences of the Industrial Revolution became obvious, and as workers organized to demand better working conditions and a greater share of the profits.

that's what i referenced by conditions we wouldn't find acceptable. however, the article claims that even if Apple paid American wages - and i am assuming with American working conditions - there still wouldn't be enough workers to meet the flexibility, supply chain, and output that Apple, and many other companies, need. apparently, the problems go far beyond China having cheaper labor and in fact labor cost are a relatively small part of the equation.

You said "comfortable" not "acceptable" in your post. As one person in the article noted, how can you find thousands of Americans willing to be woken up in the middle of the night from their dormitory beds? You won't because that sort of situation is illegal and unethical in Western societies.

I'm going to go on a bit of a rant and say (once again) that this situation has arisen because of consumers' demand for the best at the cheapest price. Companies have to respond to this or they go out of business. When a company such as Apple have to go overseas for a particular part, subassembly or device, you will find complementary suppliers growing alongside the primary supplier.

One only has to look at Detroit in the early part of the 20th century to see this same phenomenon as the auto industry blossomed. You have your main automotive manufacturing plant from someone such as GM but then you have the manufacturers of windshields, tires, brakes, etc moving in next door to them.

The sort of situation we are seeing now in China and to a lesser extent in Vietnam and Thailand does not arise overnight, just as it did not spring up overnight in Detroit. It takes time and it's the result of government, companies, shareholders and consumers all looking towards to the bottom line and how much they can make.

I'll give you about 66% here. But 33% still goes to the declining readiness of the American workforce to work as hard as necessary to succeed.

So, I would guess most of us would frame the decline in what we label "work ethic" as a generational thing. Any chance a strong(er) work ethic could be a feature of a future generation?




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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: IronMac
Date: January 22, 2012 04:19AM
Quote
Black
Quote
IronMac
You said "comfortable" not "acceptable" in your post. As one person in the article noted, how can you find thousands of Americans willing to be woken up in the middle of the night from their dormitory beds? You won't because that sort of situation is illegal and unethical in Western societies.

I'm going to go on a bit of a rant and say (once again) that this situation has arisen because of consumers' demand for the best at the cheapest price. Companies have to respond to this or they go out of business. When a company such as Apple have to go overseas for a particular part, subassembly or device, you will find complementary suppliers growing alongside the primary supplier.

One only has to look at Detroit in the early part of the 20th century to see this same phenomenon as the auto industry blossomed. You have your main automotive manufacturing plant from someone such as GM but then you have the manufacturers of windshields, tires, brakes, etc moving in next door to them.

The sort of situation we are seeing now in China and to a lesser extent in Vietnam and Thailand does not arise overnight, just as it did not spring up overnight in Detroit. It takes time and it's the result of government, companies, shareholders and consumers all looking towards to the bottom line and how much they can make.

I'll give you about 66% here. But 33% still goes to the declining readiness of the American workforce to work as hard as necessary to succeed.

So, I would guess most of us would frame the decline in what we label "work ethic" as a generational thing. Any chance a strong(er) work ethic could be a feature of a future generation?

That's why I didn't rip into cbelt's sort of generalized post about "work ethics".

I sort of agree and sort of disagree. I know quite a few Westerners who are willing to work hard to earn a decent living. I'm also in Asia right now where there are people who are willing to work on their one day off for the week at a side job doing menial labor.

I don't think it's a generational issue (isn't it always the case that the older generation look down on the younger ones for being lazy ne'er do wells?) but a societal one. As an example, you don't see White Americans normally doing field work harvesting okra but you also don't see Chinese Singaporeans slopping out waste chute garbage either. In both cases, you see lower paid immigrants (legal or otherwise) from other societies doing that sort of work. They're the ones who are willing to put up with the long hours doing the sort of work that others won't do.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: haikuman
Date: January 22, 2012 04:33AM
""" I don't think it's a generational issue (isn't it always the case that the older generation look down on the younger ones for being lazy ne'er do wells?) but a societal one. As an example, you don't see White Americans normally doing field work harvesting okra but you also don't see Chinese Singaporeans slopping out waste chute garbage either. In both cases, you see lower paid immigrants (legal or otherwise) from other societies doing that sort of work. They're the ones who are willing to put up with the long hours doing the sort of work that others won't do."""

Seems like you slipped into a different zipcode here... and drifted far away from this thread, mentioned politely of course.

"""You said "comfortable" not "acceptable" in your post. As one person in the article noted, how can you find thousands of Americans willing to be woken up in the middle of the night from their dormitory beds? You won't because that sort of situation is illegal and unethical in Western societies.

I'm going to go on a bit of a rant and say (once again) that this situation has arisen because of consumers' demand for the best at the cheapest price. Companies have to respond to this or they go out of business. When a company such as Apple have to go overseas for a particular part, subassembly or device, you will find complementary suppliers growing alongside the primary supplier.

One only has to look at Detroit in the early part of the 20th century to see this same phenomenon as the auto industry blossomed. You have your main automotive manufacturing plant from someone such as GM but then you have the manufacturers of windshields, tires, brakes, etc moving in next door to them.

The sort of situation we are seeing now in China and to a lesser extent in Vietnam and Thailand does not arise overnight, just as it did not spring up overnight in Detroit. It takes time and it's the result of government, companies, shareholders and consumers all looking towards to the bottom line and how much they can make."""

With the above discourse I would politely suggest you do a little more homework *(:>* In this case you
truly seem to not understand western societies from cornflakes *(:>*




“Stay Hungry Stay Foolish"
Steve Jobs

"There are only two mantras yum and yuk mine is yum "
Bernard Mickey Wrangle<>Tom Robbins<> "Still Life With Woodpecker"

"There is a fine line between a rut and a groove"
G.D. Kittredge III

"






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2012 04:33AM by haikuman.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Black
Date: January 22, 2012 04:48AM
Quote
haikuman
""" I don't think it's a generational issue (isn't it always the case that the older generation look down on the younger ones for being lazy ne'er do wells?) but a societal one. As an example, you don't see White Americans normally doing field work harvesting okra but you also don't see Chinese Singaporeans slopping out waste chute garbage either. In both cases, you see lower paid immigrants (legal or otherwise) from other societies doing that sort of work. They're the ones who are willing to put up with the long hours doing the sort of work that others won't do."""

Seems like you slipped into a different zipcode here... and drifted far away from this thread, mentioned politely of course.

"""You said "comfortable" not "acceptable" in your post. As one person in the article noted, how can you find thousands of Americans willing to be woken up in the middle of the night from their dormitory beds? You won't because that sort of situation is illegal and unethical in Western societies.

I'm going to go on a bit of a rant and say (once again) that this situation has arisen because of consumers' demand for the best at the cheapest price. Companies have to respond to this or they go out of business. When a company such as Apple have to go overseas for a particular part, subassembly or device, you will find complementary suppliers growing alongside the primary supplier.

One only has to look at Detroit in the early part of the 20th century to see this same phenomenon as the auto industry blossomed. You have your main automotive manufacturing plant from someone such as GM but then you have the manufacturers of windshields, tires, brakes, etc moving in next door to them.

The sort of situation we are seeing now in China and to a lesser extent in Vietnam and Thailand does not arise overnight, just as it did not spring up overnight in Detroit. It takes time and it's the result of government, companies, shareholders and consumers all looking towards to the bottom line and how much they can make."""

With the above discourse I would politely suggest you do a little more homework *(:>* In this case you
truly seem to not understand western societies from cornflakes *(:>*

Great post, Rudie! (except I didn't quite understand the parts in blue text.)




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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: modelamac
Date: January 22, 2012 05:32AM
Quote
Carnos Jax
Quote
cbelt3
Yup. Intellectual property. How's that SOPA/PIPA thingy feel now ?

Not fair cbelt. Trying to legitimize SOPA/PIPA is like legitimizing racial profiling, assuming guilt before innocence, throwing due process out of the window, etc.

That is not his point. The point is why stuff gets sent out of the US to be built. Our factories and workforce don't meet the needs anymore.

The intellectual property bit is incidental to his argument, but is what drives the proposals such as SOPA.



Ed (modelamac)

I think I will just put an OUT OF ORDER
sticker on my head and call it a day.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: WHiiP
Date: January 22, 2012 05:38AM
The main problem I have is how do American companies expect unemployed people living in the United States to be able to buy their products, no matter what foreign country is building them.

Even on unemployment pay, you can only truly afford the necessities. Unless, you are the idiot who uses his credit card for whatever you want. We know how well that works.

Char-broil is one company that sent their manufacturing jobs overseas. I have one of their grills. Bought it last year. It is a piece of crap. I will NEVER buy Char-broil again.

That is just one example of a company that will soon be failing. If you lose all your repeat customers, good frickin' luck!



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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Forrest
Date: January 22, 2012 07:38AM
I read the entire article and thought it was accurate and well written. Speaking as an engineer who works in a similar field, I don't think consumer electronics manufacturing will ever move back to America, though I'm sure there are a lot of American engineers who hope it would and be ready to support it.

This other part of the story, that's not mentioned in the article, is the fact there IS high tech manufacturing occurring in America. Many cars manufacturers build cars in America, including most foreign owned car companies. There's also a lot of high tech manufacturing for the Defense, Medical and Aerospace industries in America. As noted in the article, there's a lot more automation available today - so fewer workers are needed. Today's American worker needs to maintain their education throughout their career, and be flexible enough to change jobs if necessary to stay employed.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 22, 2012 09:49AM
Quote
modelamac
Quote
Carnos Jax
Quote
cbelt3
Yup. Intellectual property. How's that SOPA/PIPA thingy feel now ?

Not fair cbelt. Trying to legitimize SOPA/PIPA is like legitimizing racial profiling, assuming guilt before innocence, throwing due process out of the window, etc.

That is not his point. The point is why stuff gets sent out of the US to be built. Our factories and workforce don't meet the needs anymore.

The intellectual property bit is incidental to his argument, but is what drives the proposals such as SOPA.

I understood his overall point, and for the most part agree. I also understand where SOPA/PIPA are coming from. But then again, I also understand where anti-gun legislation, racial profiling, or all sorts of other questionable methodologies come from. The need to throw out the dirty water doesn't mean the baby should be thrown out with it too...that's all I was trying to say (or more appropriately it was a bad solution to the problem).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2012 09:50AM by Carnos Jax.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Marc Anthony
Date: January 22, 2012 10:29AM
I have to say that I think that any claim that there aren't enough capable, willing Americans to do a job is the purest of horse5hit. There are plenty of people out there who are unemployed, yet they have a strong work ethic and are both able minded and bodied; they'd be excellent candidates for some company to retrain. If our country disincentivized the tax advantages that large companies receive from offshoring, then, in all likelihood, jobs would return.



Le poète doit vivre beaucoup, vivre dans tous les sens. - Verlaine
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 22, 2012 10:33AM
There are many people ripping Apple about this article over on Slashdot. The irony is, it's the Window's PC crowd and their insistence on cheap PC's (and their constant whine of Apple being too expensive) that drove Apple overseas. As I understand it, Apple was the last major PC manufacturer to take their manufacturing overseas.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: raz
Date: January 22, 2012 11:28AM
Quote
cbelt3
My company is a manufacturing firm.. We do small assembly (PC Boards), large assembly, weldments, and run process equipment. 90% of our new hires don't last the first 3 months. Why ? The biggest problem is WORK ETHIC. Our factory people are paid on a piecework system. And they're only paid for pieces that meet quality requirements. Yes.. you can work all week and not get paid anything. It happens (rarely).

I was under the impression that this was illegal. I could be wrong.

When my wife was working retail many years ago, they had a similar concept called 'salary vs. draw'. In theory, you had unlimited income based on your commission. In practice, unless you had a suite of regular customers, you rarely beat minimum wage. The difference was kept on the books - so a good week might erase some of your backlog, but not push you past minimum wage.

I'd like to think piecework went out long ago. Apparently not.



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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Grace62
Date: January 22, 2012 12:08PM
Quote
raz
Quote
cbelt3
My company is a manufacturing firm.. We do small assembly (PC Boards), large assembly, weldments, and run process equipment. 90% of our new hires don't last the first 3 months. Why ? The biggest problem is WORK ETHIC. Our factory people are paid on a piecework system. And they're only paid for pieces that meet quality requirements. Yes.. you can work all week and not get paid anything. It happens (rarely).

I was under the impression that this was illegal. I could be wrong.

When my wife was working retail many years ago, they had a similar concept called 'salary vs. draw'. In theory, you had unlimited income based on your commission. In practice, unless you had a suite of regular customers, you rarely beat minimum wage. The difference was kept on the books - so a good week might erase some of your backlog, but not push you past minimum wage.

I'd like to think piecework went out long ago. Apparently not.

I was thinking the same thing raz. If the person is an independent contractor who is licensed to do that type of work, they can work out any pay arrangement to which both parties agree. But if they are employees, they have to earn at least minimum wage. So paying "nothing" is not a legal option.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Grace62
Date: January 22, 2012 12:15PM
Quote
Forrest
I read the entire article and thought it was accurate and well written. Speaking as an engineer who works in a similar field, I don't think consumer electronics manufacturing will ever move back to America, though I'm sure there are a lot of American engineers who hope it would and be ready to support it.

This other part of the story, that's not mentioned in the article, is the fact there IS high tech manufacturing occurring in America. Many cars manufacturers build cars in America, including most foreign owned car companies. There's also a lot of high tech manufacturing for the Defense, Medical and Aerospace industries in America. As noted in the article, there's a lot more automation available today - so fewer workers are needed. Today's American worker needs to maintain their education throughout their career, and be flexible enough to change jobs if necessary to stay employed.

Great comment!
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: vicrock
Date: January 22, 2012 12:32PM
Quote
srf1957
And it takes 10 years to get thru environmental and nimby lawsuits to build a new anything.

Bingo - one of the BIGGEST obstacles.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Acer
Date: January 22, 2012 12:51PM
Quote
vicrock
Quote
srf1957
And it takes 10 years to get thru environmental and nimby lawsuits to build a new anything.

Bingo - one of the BIGGEST obstacles.

Overblown. Come to Pittsburgh. We've got acres of brownfields along railroads, major roads and navigable rivers waiting for development for a minimum of red tape. Of course, you can't dump untreated waste into said rivers like you used to. At least, not while anyone is looking.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: January 22, 2012 12:51PM
But 33% still goes to the declining readiness of the American workforce to work as hard as necessary to succeed.

I think that's a generously small figure.

I'm amazed at what people expect to be handed to them.

I know quite a few Westerners who are willing to work hard to earn a decent living. I'm also in Asia right now where there are people who are willing to work on their one day off for the week at a side job doing menial labor.

I know similar people, "westerners" who are also willing to give up one day off to do menial labor.

And I also know "westerners" who are not willing to work hard to earn a decent living. It's absolutely as much a generational problem as much as a societal problem, which in turn furthers the generational problem.

We want things to be better for the next generation, and many of them grow up expecting that they should be, without being prepared to pay a price.

This didn't start with the "next" generation. I've seen this lack of a strong, good work ethic in people of my generation as well as in previous generations. I think we've been on the decline as a workforce for sometime, and the slope has become steeper, even in view of the current unemployment situation.


I'd like to think piecework went out long ago. Apparently not.

Agreed.

It's surprising/shocking to hear that we still practice this.

I can see a situation where a legal, minimum wage is paid, with work performance offering the possibility of increased wages via "piecework". That does seem to muddy work ethic though to- "If you work hard, I'll pay you more, if you don't, I'll still pay you something".


There are plenty of people out there who are unemployed, yet they have a strong work ethic and are both able minded and bodied; they'd be excellent candidates for some company to retrain.

I don't agree at all. "Plenty"? No. Many? Lots? A LOT? Sure. Enough? No. Ignoring all other factors, I don't believe for a second that there would be enough of those people to fill factories like many of those found overseas.






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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 22, 2012 01:04PM
Quote
Carnos Jax
There are many people ripping Apple about this article over on Slashdot.

then they have shallowly read the article and just taking the opportunity to take anti-Apple potshots. Apple is used as a prime example of what has happened and we all know that anything about Apple is going to attract attention. But the article repeatedly states that Apple is far from alone in having to take this route and the issues underlying the need are systemic.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Carnos Jax
Date: January 22, 2012 01:10PM
Yup...you nailed it.
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: Grace62
Date: January 22, 2012 01:32PM
Does anyone making the claim that American workers lack a good ethic have any published stats to back that up? It sounds more like attitude that reality to me.
Reality is that Americans work more hours than citizens of any other industrialized nation, including Japan. We work more hours than we did in 1970. And our labor laws are the weakest of any industrialized nation. Productivity has increased 400% since 1950. Is our standard of living a lot better than in 1950? It's better, but not that much better. So it's clearly not employees who reap most of the benefits of increased productivity.

So, anything beyond anecdotes to back up that claim that American workers are on the lazy side?
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Re: Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 22, 2012 01:37PM
Quote
Grace62
So, anything beyond anecdotes to back up that claim that American workers are on the lazy side?

well, you'd probably still classify it as anecdotal but the first thing that comes to mind is farm labor. with the anti-immigration efforts the work usually performed by that labor force is going undone. i believe there was a discussion about apple picking in washington state a few months back on the forum. i know here in georgia, where unemployment is one of the highest in the country, crops have been languishing and rotting as there are not enough legally resident workers willing to pick the harvest.



"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/22/2012 01:38PM by graylocks.
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