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Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: RonT
Date: September 18, 2012 04:51PM
My sister wants to have a backing up camera added to her car and asked me if I could recommend one. {Hmmm, no - not really!} Any of the good people around there had occasion to research the topic? If so would you care to share and/or offer a recommendation?

TIA for any helpful comments u may care to offer.
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: September 18, 2012 05:07PM
I wouldn't do it. The audible ones are much less expensive, and better, IMHO. They give you a sound so you can watch other things with your eyes. Then use your ears for backing up. Helps to spot cars flying from the size before they get their - something a camera won't see until it's too late.




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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: SDGuy
Date: September 18, 2012 05:11PM
Quote
M A V I C
...use your ears for backing up...

?
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: MGS_forgot_password
Date: September 18, 2012 05:14PM
I've got a Traverse that has the camera and the audible object detection thing. I rarely look at the screen when I am backing up, but have found the audible part very helpful when backing out of a parking space in a crowded parking lot.

I've read that new Cadillac will also vibrate the driver's seat on the relevant side in addition to playing the tones. An interesting idea.
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: September 18, 2012 05:21PM
Quote
SDGuy
Quote
M A V I C
...use your ears for backing up...

?

What's your question? You use your ears to pay attention to what's going on directly behind you, and your eyes to see the sides. Much better than trying to stare at a screen in front of you and not know what's going on around you.




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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: testcase
Date: September 18, 2012 05:24PM
"flying from the size before they get their"............



WTF????????????



damn you smiley
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Bimwad
Date: September 18, 2012 05:50PM
What's the goal?

Backup cameras are primarily designed to eliminate the blind spots caused by the vehicle's shape and window openings. They also capture a representation of any object, both stationary and moving, to the rear of the vehicle, but the poor optics on some can limit their usefulness in gauging distance or position.

Prior to the advent of less-expensive camera sensors, ultrasonic parking assist systems provided audible proximity warnings to stationary objects such a parked cars. The only thing they tell you is if some stationary object is present, within the range of the array of sensors. They're designed to judge distance, not the composition or state of the objects.

Two different tools with two different purposes. In isolation, both have distinct limitations, but together, like on some current cars, they can be pretty effective.

Neither is a substitute for good judgement on the part of the driver.
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: space-time
Date: September 18, 2012 05:59PM
I just use the rear view mirrors. seriously. that's all I need.
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: dad@home
Date: September 18, 2012 06:19PM
We have one car with a camera and one with a beeping tone.
The audible tone is MUCH more useful.

John



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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: September 18, 2012 06:28PM
Quote
testcase
"flying from the size before they get their"............



WTF????????????



damn you smiley

*sides

Quote
Bimwad
What's the goal?

Backup cameras are primarily designed to eliminate the blind spots caused by the vehicle's shape and window openings. They also capture a representation of any object, both stationary and moving, to the rear of the vehicle, but the poor optics on some can limit their usefulness in gauging distance or position.

Prior to the advent of less-expensive camera sensors, ultrasonic parking assist systems provided audible proximity warnings to stationary objects such a parked cars. The only thing they tell you is if some stationary object is present, within the range of the array of sensors. They're designed to judge distance, not the composition or state of the objects.

Two different tools with two different purposes. In isolation, both have distinct limitations, but together, like on some current cars, they can be pretty effective.

Neither is a substitute for good judgement on the part of the driver.

I'm not sure how that's two different purposes. The purpose is to keep you from backing into something. Doesn't really matter if it's moving, stationary... They each do this differently. And acoustic ones can also detect motion. Not sure why you think the object has to be stationary.




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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: billb
Date: September 18, 2012 07:29PM
Quote
Bimwad
What's the goal?

Backup cameras are primarily designed to eliminate the blind spots caused by the vehicle's shape and window openings. They also capture a representation of any object, both stationary and moving, to the rear of the vehicle, but the poor optics on some can limit their usefulness in gauging distance or position.

Prior to the advent of less-expensive camera sensors, ultrasonic parking assist systems provided audible proximity warnings to stationary objects such a parked cars. The only thing they tell you is if some stationary object is present, within the range of the array of sensors. They're designed to judge distance, not the composition or state of the objects.

Two different tools with two different purposes. In isolation, both have distinct limitations, but together, like on some current cars, they can be pretty effective.

Neither is a substitute for good judgement on the part of the driver.

+1
and both a camera and the audible tones would be nice.
The dog in the camera view will likely get out of the way and you can see if it is
a kid on a trike most likely you stop and get out f the car and make them move at least to where you can see them



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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Frank
Date: September 18, 2012 07:42PM
I have both in my F150. The camera is indispensable. It allows me to see what the mirrors do not catch. It also really helps backing into my garage when my neck is sore. Mine has a very large screen and guide lines.
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Carm
Date: September 18, 2012 10:53PM
On my Outlook/Acadia I installed one. (Can't see behind the car, the back window is really high on this SUV) Got both camera and screen off ebay(china/hong kong) and both work great. Installed it to turn on with backup lights. Screen is 4.3" TFT and the camera has lines across the screen when displayed to mark the distance. Installed with a chrome camera to look like OEM. Wanted to get a rear view mirror/monitor. Still can, just need to shell out the $160 for an all in one install. Don't want the over the mirror snap on. Havent installed the backup sensor yet, waiting for color match paint to paint the sensors before installing.

I went with an OEM style camera that doesnt hook up to license plate(had to take the whole inside panel off and drill a hole for the camera mount, splice some cables, route some others, used a bunch of zip ties).

If you go with a license plate camera, you could install it fairly quickly. DO NOT believe the night camera B.S. so don't let that sway your purchase, the backup lights should illuminate the back enough for you to see at night. I decided to purchase camera and display seperately because the stuff available locally was not very good. They all included a license plate mount camera and a very small display.

My wifes Equinox came with a backup camera. Very nice especially on the large screen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/18/2012 10:56PM by Carm.
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Carm
Date: September 18, 2012 11:08PM
If you want a basic kit, PYLE makes one with a 3.5 inch screen for about 50 and a kit with a 7 inch screen that sells for about 100.
Don't get a wireless kit. Wireless kits still need wires, just not from the camera to the display (It frees you from installing a solid connection to the display, but video interference is the price you pay)
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Dick Moore
Date: September 19, 2012 12:06AM
Just bought a 2010 Highlander that has the backup camera. In a week, it has prevented me from running over our deaf and going-blind dog, kept me from backing into an approaching car, the view of which was blocked by a large, windowless van, and helped me back out of a narrow driveway at night. It is now officially a MUST-HAVE in this family.



What it is, man, a low-down and funky feelin'
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M>B>
Date: September 19, 2012 12:37AM
It is the best feature of my new Toyota PU truck, It is in the handle of the tailgate. Has an overlay marking showing 3 & 6 foot distances. Shows image in my center rear view mirror. It will be required in all new vehicles next year but most newer cars have them now.



Also, day time running lights will be required. Geeze, Canadian cars have had them for ever!
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: September 19, 2012 10:09AM
friend's Infiniti has one that composites all angles to represent the car in a parking space. very cool.
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Uncle Wig
Date: September 19, 2012 10:28AM
Seriously: if a person cannot maneuver their vehicle without cameras and beepers, they should get a vehicle they can manage. Take it to an empty parking lot and practice parking it. Walk around the vehicle before moving it to make sure there are no dogs, cats or children to run over.

I see people all the time struggle to park their gigantic vehicles and I just have to point and laugh. Technology is all well and good, but I hate seeing it applied as a substitute for skill and judgement.



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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: September 19, 2012 11:00AM
Quote
Uncle Wig
Seriously: if a person cannot maneuver their vehicle without cameras and beepers, they should get a vehicle they can manage. Take it to an empty parking lot and practice parking it. Walk around the vehicle before moving it to make sure there are no dogs, cats or children to run over.

I disagree. What vehicle is going to help me better back out of a parking spot in a garage with low clearance and with vans on each side where I can't see what's coming from each side? I've had kids walk behind my car as I backup and if the parking sensor didn't beep, I would have smacked them.

When you're in the city, and sometimes you only have inches to spare on a small car, there's just too many things you can't see, no matter the car.




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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: September 19, 2012 11:11AM
The camera is indispensable. It allows me to see what the mirrors do not catch.

This.


I just have to point and laugh.

One of the many foibles of humanity.


Technology is all well and good, but I hate seeing it applied as a substitute for skill and judgement.

And I love seeing it applied to augment skill and judgement.

There have been a couple of accidents near me involving small children running behind backing vehicles. The truth of the matter is one can't really watch all sides at once. It only takes an instant of changing your focus from one mirror or side of the vehicle to another for a small child running or on a bike to approach from another direction.

We can blame who we want for allowing it to happen in the first place, but if we can prevent the accident regardless, I'm in favor of doing so.

Beeping is fine if we can train every toddler to run away from danger to a safe direction. And beeping is not to aid in the maneuvering of a vehicle but to warn people who seem unaware that the vehicle is maneuvering, not that everybody pays attention to that. For that reason alone, I don't see it very useful except on very large vehicles.





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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: September 19, 2012 11:19AM
Quote
RAMd®d
Beeping is fine if we can train every toddler to run away from danger to a safe direction. And beeping is not to aid in the maneuvering of a vehicle but to warn people who seem unaware that the vehicle is maneuvering, not that everybody pays attention to that. For that reason alone, I don't see it very useful except on very large vehicles.

Eh, we're referring to parking sensors providing feedback audibly to the driver... not exterior beeping. The beeping gives you the same information as a camera, but audibly and that allows you to use your eyes for other things - like watching for cars coming from the side. Plus the beeping gives a much better indication of distance than a camera.




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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Robert M
Date: September 19, 2012 12:49PM
Bimwad,

Right on! My dad has a Ford Explorer with an audible system. My Mazda CX-7 has a backup camera. I've got lots of experience with both systems. They positively do not provide the same information. I would not think of them as replacements for each other. Rather, they compliment each other.

In my experience, the audible system gives warning when something is within the proximity of the car. Not the where or the what. Just a something and, to a degree, how close it is to the vehicle. The backup camera provides an image of said object in relation to your vehicle. If I had to choose one, I’d choose the backup camera.

After using both, I found the camera the more useful of the two systems. In my CX-7, I use it in conjunction with the mirrors, windows and, as necessary, turning my head, to back into my corner parking space each time I return to my building. The camera provides me information that cannot be given to me by an audible alarm. For example, the camera allows me see how close I am to the rear wall and tire I leave on the floor of the garage at the very back of my parking space. It shows me how close I am to a shopping cart I store in the back of my parking space. I can literally see how close the rear bumper of my car is to them and account for it as I back into the space.

All an audible alarm would do is beep constantly as I backed into my space, which wouldn’t be nearly as helpful. For example, it might tell me I am getting close to the shopping cart but not that I am covering the tire on the floor. I know the tire is shallow enough for me to drive over and do so when I don't need to get anything out of the back of my car. Even mirrors and windows don't give me the details about the tire. All I’d know I’m near something and even the windows and mirrors of the car and turning my head wouldn’t necessarily tell me exactly where and how close they are to me. I'd have to rely on knowledge and experience. That goes out the window if someone moves the cart or tire. The camera provides the details to me.

Same goes for when I back into spaces elsewhere. The camera allows me to see specific items in the proximity of its sensor. An audible alarm only that something is in the proximity, not where or what. In the end, though, the key to this is the human factor. Neither of these systems replace careful judgement on the part of the driver.

Any car I own in the future will absolutely have, at the least, a backup camera. If I can have both, even better. Sure, it’s vital to be able to handle a vehicle without one or both systems. But, if they are available options, I’d say it’s foolish not to get them. They compliment the good judgement one should use when driving any vehicle, regardless of size and/or type.

Robert







> What's the goal?
>
> Backup cameras are primarily designed to eliminate the blind
> spots caused by the vehicle's shape and window openings. They
> also capture a representation of any object, both stationary and
> moving, to the rear of the vehicle, but the poor optics on some
> can limit their usefulness in gauging distance or position.
>
> Prior to the advent of less-expensive camera sensors, ultrasonic
> parking assist systems provided audible proximity warnings to
> stationary objects such a parked cars. The only thing they tell
> you is if some stationary object is present, within the range of
> the array of sensors. They're designed to judge distance, not the
> composition or state of the objects.
>
> Two different tools with two different purposes. In isolation,
> both have distinct limitations, but together, like on some
> current cars, they can be pretty effective.
>
> Neither is a substitute for good judgement on the part of the
> driver.
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: September 19, 2012 01:38PM
Quote
Robert M
After using both, I found the camera the more useful of the two systems. In my CX-7, I use it in conjunction with the mirrors, windows and, as necessary, turning my head, to back into my corner parking space each time I return to my building.

Ok, share your secret - how do you look out the mirrors, windows... while also looking at the camera screen?

Quote

The camera provides me information that cannot be given to me by an audible alarm. For example, the camera allows me see how close I am to the rear wall and tire I leave on the floor of the garage at the very back of my parking space.

My audible alarm lets me know the same thing based on 1) experience and 2) the frequency of the beeps.

Quote

It shows me how close I am to a shopping cart I store in the back of my parking space. I can literally see how close the rear bumper of my car is to them and account for it as I back into the space.

IME with cameras and audible alerts, the audible ones are MUCH easier to tell just how close something is. Cameras with their fisheye lenses make it VERY difficult to tell if I'm 6" away or 2" away from something.

Quote

Same goes for when I back into spaces elsewhere. The camera allows me to see specific items in the proximity of its sensor. An audible alarm only that something is in the proximity, not where or what.

Does it really matter what? If it's a kid, a dog, an adult or a cart... does it matter? You don't want to back into it either way (at least I don't.) For backing into a spot, I quickly glance at it as I drive, by, make note of anything abnormal, then listen to the sounds as I backup, use my mirrors to align (something you can't do while paying attention to a camera)...

A camera totally distracts a driver from seeing what's going on around. They should be paying attention to what's no behind them and other factors while backing up. The audible system lets them do that, and give almost all of the same information to the driver as far as what's going on behind them. Sure I might not know if the kid behind the car is wearing pants or shorts... but it doesn't matter, IMHO.




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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Robert M
Date: September 19, 2012 01:49PM
Mavic,

Responses:

> Ok, share your secret - how do you look out the mirrors,
> windows... while also looking at the camera screen?

I don’t. Much in the same way that I don’t rely on just mirrors or just windows. I take care to get as well rounded a view as possible, using all the tools at my disposal.

> Quote
>
> The camera provides me information that cannot be given to me by
> an audible alarm. For example, the camera allows me see how close
> I am to the rear wall and tire I leave on the floor of the garage
> at the very back of my parking space.
>
> My audible alarm lets me know the same thing based on 1)
> experience and 2) the frequency of the beeps.

Not detailed enough. The explorer beeped when the cart was to the back and side of it. I needed to use the mirror or turn my head and look out the window to find it.

> Quote
>
> It shows me how close I am to a shopping cart I store in the back
> of my parking space. I can literally see how close the rear bumper
> of my car is to them and account for it as I back into the space.
>
> IME with cameras and audible alerts, the audible ones are MUCH
> easier to tell just how close something is. Cameras with their
> fisheye lenses make it VERY difficult to tell if I'm 6" away or
> 2" away from something.

The one built into the CX-7 works well enough.

> Quote
>
> Same goes for when I back into spaces elsewhere. The camera
> allows me to see specific items in the proximity of its sensor.
> An audible alarm only that something is in the proximity, not
> where or what.
>
> Does it really matter what? If it's a kid, a dog, an adult or a
> cart... does it matter? You don't want to back into it either way
> (at least I don't.) For backing into a spot, I quickly glance at
> it as I drive, by, make note of anything abnormal, then listen to
> the sounds as I backup, use my mirrors to align (something you
> can't do while paying attention to a camera)...

Actually, for me it makes a difference and, as I use the camera, I’m proceeding with care and using the other tools in the car. Just like you.

> A camera totally distracts a driver from seeing what's going on
> around. They should be paying attention to what's no behind them
> and other factors while backing up. The audible system lets them
> do that, and give almost all of the same information to the
> driver as far as what's going on behind them. Sure I might not
> know if the kid behind the car is wearing pants or shorts... but
> it doesn't matter, IMHO.

Consider, if your ears are on the alarm, they aren’t on other ambient sounds which can be just as important. So, your attention is shared, too.

Like I said, one system doesn’t replace the other. They compliment each other.

Robert
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: September 19, 2012 03:09PM
Quote
Robert M
Not detailed enough. The explorer beeped when the cart was to the back and side of it. I needed to use the mirror or turn my head and look out the window to find it.

Sounds like a problem with the explorer's setup. It shouldn't beep unless it's something you're setup to hit.

Quote

> IME with cameras and audible alerts, the audible ones are MUCH
> easier to tell just how close something is. Cameras with their
> fisheye lenses make it VERY difficult to tell if I'm 6" away or
> 2" away from something.

The one built into the CX-7 works well enough.

So you can tell if something is 2" away or 6" away, accounting for the curvature of the backend of the car?

Quote

Actually, for me it makes a difference and, as I use the camera, I’m proceeding with care and using the other tools in the car. Just like you.

As you noted, you can't be looking at the screen and looking, for example, out the back windows at the same time. It's. Not. Possible. So you're NOT proceeding with care as you're NOT watching areas the camera can't see. And it's NOT just like me because I am fully able to use my eyes for everything else.

Quote

Consider, if your ears are on the alarm, they aren’t on other ambient sounds which can be just as important. So, your attention is shared, too.

Are you serious? The beeps are intermittent and it's very easy to separate out other sounds. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO BE LOOKING AT A SCREEN ON YOUR DASH AND SEPARATE OUT, VISUALLY, WHAT IS HAPPENING BEHIND YOU OUTSIDE OF THE VIEW OF THE CAMERA. It's not just about shared attention - I can focus on visual and audible things at the same time. But no one can focus on two visual things in two different places at the same time.

Quote

Like I said, one system doesn’t replace the other. They compliment each other.

Looking at a screen replaces your ability to use your eyes to watch for other things, even if just for a few seconds at a time. The audible system does not have that very negative side effect and provides 90% of the same feedback a camera does.




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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Robert M
Date: September 19, 2012 03:45PM
Mavic,

You can't be looking at all of the mirrors and the windows simultaneously either. Just in the same way that as you're driving, you should be glancing quickly at your mirrors on an as necessary basis to be more aware of your surroundings. Same thing for listening to what's going on around you. You can't be listening for the audible beeps and be listening for all of the other ambient sounds either. Your argument while strong on the surface but doesn't hold water.

Robert
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: September 19, 2012 05:23PM
Quote
Robert M
Mavic,

You can't be looking at all of the mirrors and the windows simultaneously either. Just in the same way that as you're driving, you should be glancing quickly at your mirrors on an as necessary basis to be more aware of your surroundings. Same thing for listening to what's going on around you. You can't be listening for the audible beeps and be listening for all of the other ambient sounds either. Your argument while strong on the surface but doesn't hold water.

Robert

Two things:
1. I can be looking out the sides of the car while backing up, or the mirrors - but NOT when looking at a backup camera. That's a huge difference.
2. Yes, I certainly can be listening to the beeps and to other sounds at the same time. Sorry if you can't do that.

Your argument isn't even strong on the surface smiling smiley




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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: Robert M
Date: September 20, 2012 05:46AM
Mavic,

At best, you can look at _one_ side of the car. If your eyes are on the left mirror, they aren't physically able to be on watching the rear view or right mirror. So, you're in the same position as me when it comes to visibility.

You may, just may, be able to discern enough about your environment to differentiate all the sounds. But, without that visual information, you're not going to actually know what's making your system beep. You'll still have to rely on visual identification the same way as I to identify the trigger and account for it.

In the end, you're still doing the same thing as me. I just have more visible information and no audible notification rather than less visible information and more audio information. As Bimwad said, these systems don't replace each other.

Go with what works for you. One or both must absolutely still be used in conjunction with careful judgment on the driver.

Robert
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Re: Thinking of adding a backing up camera
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: September 20, 2012 11:33AM
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Robert M
At best, you can look at _one_ side of the car. If your eyes are on the left mirror, they aren't physically able to be on watching the rear view or right mirror. So, you're in the same position as me when it comes to visibility.

Not at all. If I'm looking at a camera, I can't even be looking at the left mirror.

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You may, just may, be able to discern enough about your environment to differentiate all the sounds. But, without that visual information, you're not going to actually know what's making your system beep. You'll still have to rely on visual identification the same way as I to identify the trigger and account for it.

Again, what does it matter? If it's a pole, a child, a shopping cart... why would it matter? I still don't want to hit it.

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In the end, you're still doing the same thing as me. I just have more visible information

No, you don't have more visible information - you can't focus on multiple places, visually, at the same time.

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As Bimwad said, these systems don't replace each other.

Sort of. One adds to your ability, and one doesn't add to your ability.




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