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Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: bruceko
Date: August 13, 2013 06:57PM
I have been looking at a new car the has two engine options gas or diesel.
the diesel is 240 hp @3750 rpm. 428 pounds of torque @2150 rpm
24 miles city 27 combined 31+ Highway
The gas engine is 272 hp @4780 rpm. 215 pound of torque @2150 rpm.
18 city 23 combined 26 hwy
My wife drives about 12000 miles per year.
The diesel is $2100 more then the gas model.
I priced diesel and premium fuel at the same price which may be off a few pennies.
I have figured owning it for 6 years and it takes about 3.5 years to break even if all city driving but for combined or hwy it rolls out to about 6.5 years. Both engines are really fast. I was surprised at how quick the diesel was.
Any other things I should consider beyond the cost break even point?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2013 06:58PM by bruceko.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: yeoman
Date: August 13, 2013 07:09PM
Check the cost of replacing timing belt/chain on the diesel. Double check the price difference between regular gas and diesel. What does your diesel techie say will happen if the typical daily driving distance is less than, say, 10 miles. Do a search about diesel fuel lubrication (or lack thereof with US fuel). How about the reliability of the high pressure fuel pump - any issues! I love driving diesels in Europe but in the US the fuel might be an issue. Do thorough analysis on maintenance costs versus fuel savings. Enjoy.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: August 13, 2013 07:32PM
I'm really excited about the upcoming diesel-powered Mazda6. Some real innovation designed into that engine - it may become the first diesel I ever own.

[www.caranddriver.com]



It is what it is.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: DinerDave
Date: August 13, 2013 07:44PM
I'm with yeoman, around me, diesel is closer to premium price
Than regular. Diesels will last longer, but have different maintenance
Requirements that may annoy you. Short trips are not to the diesel's
liking. Longer runs are it's wheel house. I go about a total of 25 miles
a day, 4 trips, home to work to bank to work then home. Diesel not
practical for my use. For you? You decide

Dave



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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: MGS_forgot_password
Date: August 13, 2013 07:51PM
Quote

Any other things I should consider beyond the cost break even point?

How many stations in your area have diesel? Will you have to go a couple of miles out of your way every time you fill up?

The gas engine will also run just fine on regular, saving you a bit of money with a small reduction in performance. (which you may not notice)
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Pat
Date: August 13, 2013 07:52PM
I've owned a diesel pickup for the last 11 years.

Some things to keep in mind, diesel is not available @ every station and finding mechanics that actually know what they're doing can be an issue, even at the dealer.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: August 13, 2013 07:59PM
What car are we talking about? I would tend to go for the diesel, but it depends on the engine we're talking about. For example, VW TDIs can go 300k fairly easily and require a lot less maintenance than their gas counterparts.

Quote
MGS_forgot_password
The gas engine will also run just fine on regular, saving you a bit of money with a small reduction in performance. (which you may not notice)

I've heard that before but everyone I've known that has tested it has found it not to be true. The car gets lower MPGs which negates savings at the pump. Plus most engines these days retard the timing when the wrong grade fuel is put in, and some end up seeing a lot of intake build up because of it.




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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 13, 2013 08:37PM
lower maintanence frequency and engine longevity are why diesels are hugely popular overseas. People elsewhere tend to maintain better and keep their vehicles longer. Most of my drinking buddies have 80's vintage Mercedes land yachts with diesels.

I'm interested in the VW GTI TDI coming soon to the US.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Gareth
Date: August 13, 2013 08:54PM
Frankly, if I was buying a diesel, I would want significantly better fuel economy compared to the gas version than what you've posted, but that example seems to be tuned for performance rather than fuel economy.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: JPK
Date: August 13, 2013 09:28PM
Most of the new diesels need "deer piss" as a consumable that gets injected to keep emissions lower. Although it is not actually deer piss, the synthetic urea can be a pricey additive that most people don't consider.

I have been waiting for the right diesel. Its not there yet for me but it is getting very close. The one compelling argument is that in my suburban life, gas is available across the street from about every corner or across from every Walgreens. Diesel is pretty available, but not as much as gas it.

based on your scenario - it looks like a pick 'em!

Good luck!

JPK
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: (vikm)
Date: August 13, 2013 09:31PM
I plead ignorance to the nuances behind the diesel and why it may or may not be better than a standard engine. It almost always seems to me that every single time I'm behind a car that is pouring smoke out of the exhaust like something out of Spyhunter, it's a diesel Mercedes or VW (or a car with a blown turbo).
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 13, 2013 09:36PM
Your BMW Diesel will get better mileage than the sticker says and your gasser will get less. Once you go Diesel, you never go back to gas. Diesel fuel may not be at every station but you will drive by a lot more stations without needing to stop thanks to the increased MPG. Diesel fuel has lubricants added now that we are using ultra low sulfur fuel. My two TDI's have 10k oil change intervals, the equivalent gasser has 5k oil changes. There is a reason big trucks use Diesel: economy, economy, economy. I've run both gas and Diesel big trucks. The Diesels cost half what a gasser cost to run. And they last twice as long. Your resale will recoup the $2100 additional you will pay. It is messier to fuel a Diesel because the pump nozzles tend to get oily. My wife likes her Diesel because I always fuel it.

But you might consider electric.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: bruceko
Date: August 13, 2013 09:41PM
The car I am looking at is the Audi Q5 tdi
Around here most stations have diesel but once we get out of the local area I am not so sure
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: gabester
Date: August 13, 2013 09:42PM
I know that diesel engines convert the fuel more efficiently than gas engines.

Can someone explain to me why they don't make diesel-electric hybrid cars? This would seem to make the best of all possible vehicular worlds - the battery provides the quick pickup and performance and the diesel extends that mileage longevity even further and allows you to cruise down the highway at decent speeds.

I have no particular feeling about this scenario... but do like the sound of biodiesel.
g=
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: davester
Date: August 13, 2013 09:43PM
Quote
Racer X
lower maintanence frequency and engine longevity are why diesels are hugely popular overseas.

I'm not sure where you're talking about, but in Europe that was only true in the olden days. The main reason europeans buy diesels is that fuel prices are almost twice as high as here (or more in some cases). Maintenance costs are essentially the same as modern gas cars, and most people don't keep their gas cars to the point where engine longevity is an issue any more (i.e. well north of 100k miles on modern gas cars).



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: JoeH
Date: August 13, 2013 09:53PM
Quote
gabester
Can someone explain to me why they don't make diesel-electric hybrid cars? This would seem to make the best of all possible vehicular worlds - the battery provides the quick pickup and performance and the diesel extends that mileage longevity even further and allows you to cruise down the highway at decent speeds.

g=

I recall reading that work on ones was being done in Europe, and came across another mention that Rover was planning on bringing a model to the US in the near future. I do know there are buses on the road already in the US that are diesel-electric hybrids. Several were included in a recent purchase of vehicles for the Transit Authority that includes the area around the university where I work.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Racer X
Date: August 13, 2013 09:59PM
Quote
gabester
I know that diesel engines convert the fuel more efficiently than gas engines.

Can someone explain to me why they don't make diesel-electric hybrid cars? This would seem to make the best of all possible vehicular worlds - the battery provides the quick pickup and performance and the diesel extends that mileage longevity even further and allows you to cruise down the highway at decent speeds.

I have no particular feeling about this scenario... but do like the sound of biodiesel.
g=

I have always wondered that. A small aluminum diesel with wet sleeves.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Gareth
Date: August 13, 2013 10:03PM
Quote
gabester
Can someone explain to me why they don't make diesel-electric hybrid cars?

The reason I read, is that both electric and diesel are high torque at low rpm designs so it's rather redundant and the trade off from an electric to a gas engine is better suited to a hybrid drivetrain.

Or, maybe it's because the US is a major consumer of hybrids and it's hard to sell diesels to Americans (especially back when the Prius first came out). smiling smiley No idea, just making that up.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: davester
Date: August 13, 2013 10:14PM
What Gareth said is correct. Diesel and electric torque characteristics are not complementary whereas gas and electric are.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Spock
Date: August 13, 2013 10:30PM
428 ft/lb Vs 215 ft/lb - if you intend on towing anything get the diesel.



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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: August 13, 2013 10:46PM
Quote
davester
Quote
Racer X
lower maintanence frequency and engine longevity are why diesels are hugely popular overseas.

I'm not sure where you're talking about, but in Europe that was only true in the olden days. The main reason europeans buy diesels is that fuel prices are almost twice as high as here (or more in some cases). Maintenance costs are essentially the same as modern gas cars, and most people don't keep their gas cars to the point where engine longevity is an issue any more (i.e. well north of 100k miles on modern gas cars).

It's still true. I've asked several shops about it. The TDIs last a lot longer and require less maintenance.




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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 13, 2013 10:50PM
Quote
davester
What Gareth said is correct. Diesel and electric torque characteristics are not complementary whereas gas and electric are.

Big gensets are all Diesels. The users, like hospitals, are not concerned about economy as much as reliability. Diesel hybrids exist in Europe and get better mileage (for equal sized vehicles) than any gas hybrid. The high torque is ideally suited to turn a generator. Americans seem to not like Diesels until they drive one.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Gareth
Date: August 13, 2013 11:37PM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
davester
What Gareth said is correct. Diesel and electric torque characteristics are not complementary whereas gas and electric are.

Big gensets are all Diesels. The users, like hospitals, are not concerned about economy as much as reliability. Diesel hybrids exist in Europe and get better mileage (for equal sized vehicles) than any gas hybrid. The high torque is ideally suited to turn a generator. Americans seem to not like Diesels until they drive one.

A diesel genset is a different application than a hybrid car. In that case, you're using a diesel engine to produce electricity. If you used that application on a car, you would use a diesel engine to RUN the electric motor. This is different than what we consider a hybrid car (i.e. Prius which has two separate drivetrains, either the electric motor or the gas engine can turn the wheels). That application is more like a Chevy Volt, a range extending electric/plug-in car, in which the electric motor always turns the wheels and the engine powers the electric motor if need be.

Personally, I think carrying around two drivetrains (ala Prius) is rather stupid, and think that in the case of the Chevy Volt (a range extending electric/plug-in), a diesel engine might make sense.

What diesel hybrids are in Europe? Are they like the Prius (two drivetrains?) or Volt (only electric drivetrain)?
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Speedy
Date: August 13, 2013 11:42PM
The Diesel hybrid once discussed on the forum was a Peugeot. There are others.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: August 13, 2013 11:56PM
A diesel Volt would be ideal.



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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: davester
Date: August 14, 2013 12:15AM
I very much doubt that they'll go with a diesel volt. The cost of the car is already too high and going with a diesel engine would surely drive the cost up for minimal advantage (since the target audience is those who utilize the car primarily in electric mode).



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: August 14, 2013 12:51AM
Quote
JPK
Most of the new diesels need "deer piss" as a consumable that gets injected to keep emissions lower. Although it is not actually deer piss, the synthetic urea can be a pricey additive that most people don't consider.

The new Mazda6 diesel does not, one of the revolutionary aspects of the new engine. It also utilizes an all-aluminum block for significant weight (and thus fuel) savings.



It is what it is.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: August 14, 2013 01:33AM
Quote
M A V I C
Quote
davester
Quote
Racer X
lower maintanence frequency and engine longevity are why diesels are hugely popular overseas.

I'm not sure where you're talking about, but in Europe that was only true in the olden days. The main reason europeans buy diesels is that fuel prices are almost twice as high as here (or more in some cases). Maintenance costs are essentially the same as modern gas cars, and most people don't keep their gas cars to the point where engine longevity is an issue any more (i.e. well north of 100k miles on modern gas cars).

It's still true. I've asked several shops about it. The TDIs last a lot longer and require less maintenance.

It is true, for VW anyway. A Jetta TDI is good for 300 to 350k miles before it needs a full blown rebuild. It is common to see them running around with that many miles on them. You don't see any gas Jetta's with 300k on the stock engine. A 1.8T or a 2.0 NA is good for around 200 to 250k. You easily get another 100k miles out of the Diesel.



C(-)ris
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: eustacetilley
Date: August 14, 2013 02:16AM
Quote
Speedy
The Diesel hybrid once discussed on the forum was a Peugeot. There are others.

The volume production Peugeot 508, 3008 and Citroen DS5 Hybrid4 series. There is also the rather scarce MB E300 Bluetec Hybrid, and the Volvo V60 D6 Plug-In Hybrid. There was one collaboration that might actually have been sold here, but it's a real Saab story.

Eustace
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: lost in space
Date: August 14, 2013 08:45AM
If you plan on owning it 6 years, at 12K miles per that's only 72K miles. Seems like that would make long-term reliability, timing belt, etc. moot points, no?



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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Pat
Date: August 14, 2013 10:23AM
One more to think about, the DPF. The Diesel Particulate Filter captures what most people associate with diesel exhaust, the soot. It needs to 'regenerate' every so often to burn off this collected soot. If you make a bunch of short trips, it will not start and/or finish regeneration. With newer DPF equipped diesels you have to take 'em out and drive them at speed for a time so that this process can happen. Another possible problem with regeneration is that fuel is used to raise the EGTs. Some vehicles use the cylinder injectors, instead of a separate inline injector, to inject fuel during the exhaust stroke. This can cause cylinder wash down and oil dilution. Plenty of stories of Ford,Mazda,TDI and other DPF equipped diesel engine owners with rising oil levels due to fuel contamination. One needs to keep an eye on oil level and change more often to protect against premature engine wear.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: August 14, 2013 01:31PM
Quote
Pat
One more to think about, the DPF. The Diesel Particulate Filter captures what most people associate with diesel exhaust, the soot.

Also not necessary on the new Mazda6 diesel. It really is a remarkable piece of work.



It is what it is.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: August 14, 2013 01:37PM
Urea's no big deal - there's only one spec so you can buy it at truck stops @$4/gallon even if you are driving a new Mercedes diesel.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: August 14, 2013 02:47PM
One less thing to worry about/spend money on is always preferable.



It is what it is.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: Pat
Date: August 14, 2013 04:11PM
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Pat
One more to think about, the DPF. The Diesel Particulate Filter captures what most people associate with diesel exhaust, the soot.

Also not necessary on the new Mazda6 diesel. It really is a remarkable piece of work.

Yes it is necessary and it is on the current Euro models and will be on the US models. In the actual specs it clearly references the combo oxidizing catalyst/DPF filter along with the whole EGR setup. The only thing not being used is a separate downstream NOx treatment.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: August 14, 2013 06:21PM
Quote
Pat
Quote
N-OS X-tasy!
Quote
Pat
One more to think about, the DPF. The Diesel Particulate Filter captures what most people associate with diesel exhaust, the soot.

Also not necessary on the new Mazda6 diesel. It really is a remarkable piece of work.

Yes it is necessary and it is on the current Euro models and will be on the US models. In the actual specs it clearly references the combo oxidizing catalyst/DPF filter along with the whole EGR setup. The only thing not being used is a separate downstream NOx treatment.

You're right - it's the NOx treatment device I was thinking of.



It is what it is.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: space-time
Date: August 14, 2013 07:08PM
Quote
Gareth
Quote
Speedy
Quote
davester
What Gareth said is correct. Diesel and electric torque characteristics are not complementary whereas gas and electric are.

Big gensets are all Diesels. The users, like hospitals, are not concerned about economy as much as reliability. Diesel hybrids exist in Europe and get better mileage (for equal sized vehicles) than any gas hybrid. The high torque is ideally suited to turn a generator. Americans seem to not like Diesels until they drive one.

A diesel genset is a different application than a hybrid car. In that case, you're using a diesel engine to produce electricity. If you used that application on a car, you would use a diesel engine to RUN the electric motor. This is different than what we consider a hybrid car (i.e. Prius which has two separate drivetrains, either the electric motor or the gas engine can turn the wheels). That application is more like a Chevy Volt, a range extending electric/plug-in car, in which the electric motor always turns the wheels and the engine powers the electric motor if need be.

Personally, I think carrying around two drivetrains (ala Prius) is rather stupid, and think that in the case of the Chevy Volt (a range extending electric/plug-in), a diesel engine might make sense.

What diesel hybrids are in Europe? Are they like the Prius (two drivetrains?) or Volt (only electric drivetrain)?




the Chevy Volt can also connect the gas engine directly to the wheels, I read that in an article a while back and wikipedia says something along the same lines.

[en.wikipedia.org]

Quote

The Volt operates as a pure battery electric vehicle until its plug-in battery capacity drops to a predetermined threshold from full charge. From there its internal combustion engine powers an electric generator to extend the vehicle's range if needed. Once the engine is running in this extended range mode, it may at times be linked mechanically (via a clutch) to assist the traction motor in propelling the car in order to improve energy efficiency. The Volt's regenerative braking also contributes to the on-board electricity generation.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: bruceko
Date: August 14, 2013 07:43PM
Thanks for all the information. It gives me a lot more things to consider in my decision making.
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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: M A V I C
Date: August 14, 2013 08:08PM
Quote
C(-)ris
Quote
M A V I C
Quote
davester
Quote
Racer X
lower maintanence frequency and engine longevity are why diesels are hugely popular overseas.

I'm not sure where you're talking about, but in Europe that was only true in the olden days. The main reason europeans buy diesels is that fuel prices are almost twice as high as here (or more in some cases). Maintenance costs are essentially the same as modern gas cars, and most people don't keep their gas cars to the point where engine longevity is an issue any more (i.e. well north of 100k miles on modern gas cars).

It's still true. I've asked several shops about it. The TDIs last a lot longer and require less maintenance.

It is true, for VW anyway. A Jetta TDI is good for 300 to 350k miles before it needs a full blown rebuild. It is common to see them running around with that many miles on them. You don't see any gas Jetta's with 300k on the stock engine. A 1.8T or a 2.0 NA is good for around 200 to 250k. You easily get another 100k miles out of the Diesel.

I think you're being generous with the gas longevity. For the 1.8T and 2.0T, @#$%& states that off the line burning one quart (or was it one liter?) of oil per 1200 miles is within spec. If you were unlucky enough to get one at the start, by 100k it's probably consuming a lot more. I've got a 2.0T FSI that was well taken care of and mostly highway miles... 116k and it consumes a fair amount of oil. There's quite a few engines like that which can't go much past 100k because the kids that own them don't like to let them drop below 5k RPMs and often mod them to 300bhp+. The TDIs on the other hand, can take that sort of abuse much better.




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Re: Speaking of cars, Diesel vs gas engine
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: August 14, 2013 11:11PM
I have a 1999.5 Jetta with 208k miles on it so far. Still runs and drives, original motor and transmission. Motor has a small tick and goes through 1.5 quarts per 5000 miles. Was beat on by a few kids before I got it, but it survived. My estimate was typical of a well maintained VW. Neither the diesel or the gas engine will last long if regular maintenance isn't performed.



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