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vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Fritz
Date: February 17, 2014 07:35AM
[earthtechling.com]



!#$@@$#!

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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 17, 2014 07:39AM
Uh-huh, just wait until they build them taller and they blow all our atmosphere into outer space.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: billb
Date: February 17, 2014 07:48AM
Noticed lots and lots of those being installed in parking lots on the existing light poles last time I was in Italy.



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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Black
Date: February 17, 2014 07:56AM
Quote
billb
Noticed lots and lots of those being installed in parking lots on the existing light poles last time I was in Italy.

We've got a number of them installed on parkways and parking lot perimeters around Chicago.

Is this something we may see on roofs eventually?




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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 17, 2014 07:59AM
Quote
Black
Is this something we may see on roofs eventually?

Already has been done for years.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: February 17, 2014 08:00AM
Excellent !

FWIW: Rooftop installation probably requires a stronger structure than the average building will provide. While they are less stressful than the HAWT design, they still reflect a big torque load on their mounting, and a vibration environment. I say this without any experience in VWT's, but experience in radar antenna servomechanism design.
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Speedy
Date: February 17, 2014 08:03AM
Quote
cbelt3
Excellent !

FWIW: Rooftop installation probably requires a stronger structure than the average building will provide. While they are less stressful than the HAWT design, they still reflect a big torque load on their mounting, and a vibration environment. I say this without any experience in VWT's, but experience in radar antenna servomechanism design.

The rooftop ones I've seen are only a handful of feet tall.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Black
Date: February 17, 2014 08:06AM
Quote
Speedy
Quote
cbelt3
Excellent !

FWIW: Rooftop installation probably requires a stronger structure than the average building will provide. While they are less stressful than the HAWT design, they still reflect a big torque load on their mounting, and a vibration environment. I say this without any experience in VWT's, but experience in radar antenna servomechanism design.

The rooftop ones I've seen are only a handful of feet tall.

Yes, I assumed we'd be talking about something more miniature.
I wonder how much juice a garage roof packed full of these could produce and/or how it compares to solar on a square foot basis.




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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: February 17, 2014 08:09AM
From 2009:

[youtu.be]



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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Black
Date: February 17, 2014 08:14AM
At this point in the discussion one must conclude that people with fritz in their name are partial to wind turbines.




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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Michael
Date: February 17, 2014 08:15AM
What if the feds and states installed them between the upper and lower impact rails on the barriers along the interstates? They would be run by the "wind" that cars and trucks generate as they drive by. Each tiny vertical turbine would be essentially meaningless, but millions (billions?) should make a substantial contribution to the power supply.
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Fritz
Date: February 17, 2014 08:22AM
[www.tangarie.com]

[www.helixwind.com]

there were some others, but they seemd to have disappeared.



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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: February 17, 2014 08:53AM
Quote
Michael
What if the feds and states installed them between the upper and lower impact rails on the barriers along the interstates? They would be run by the "wind" that cars and trucks generate as they drive by. Each tiny vertical turbine would be essentially meaningless, but millions (billions?) should make a substantial contribution to the power supply.

Functionality barriers include infrastructure (cabling, etc..) and wear factors. A better candidate will be posting them on top of the noise walls that are all over the place in urban areas.

The big problem the US has with energy systems like this is the 'Big Project' mentality that locks most governments and corporations into refusing little stuff like this. Not recognizing that millions of kilowatt range generators will produce gigawatts.

The other big problem is storage. This is the real elephant in the room. The sun doesn't always shine, the wind doesn't always blow, rivers ice over, tides are sometimes big and sometimes smaller. Your generation capacity needs to be significantly higher, and your storage capacity needs to be huge in order to maintain grid demand 24/7.
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: billb
Date: February 17, 2014 09:51AM
Quote
Black
Quote
billb
Noticed lots and lots of those being installed in parking lots on the existing light poles last time I was in Italy.

We've got a number of them installed on parkways and parking lot perimeters around Chicago.

Is this something we may see on roofs eventually?

Sorry but I'd rather visit Italy.



The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
[soundcloud.com]
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Ken Sp.
Date: February 17, 2014 10:02AM
I've seen these before in California

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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: February 17, 2014 10:22AM
Quote
cbelt3
The other big problem is storage. This is the real elephant in the room. The sun doesn't always shine, the wind doesn't always blow, rivers ice over, tides are sometimes big and sometimes smaller. Your generation capacity needs to be significantly higher, and your storage capacity needs to be huge in order to maintain grid demand 24/7.

I've thought this too. The problem is that people always think of the energy storage in terms of cost thinking of conventional power generation systems. With renewable systems the storage can be incredibly low-tech and inefficient. I've often thought that wind turbines should be connected to pumps to compress air, pump water into an elevated tank, or lift massive weight into the air. Then, when the power is needed just release the water, drop the weight, open the valve...and collect the potential energy. The advantage of this is that it is a KNOWN quantity of energy that will be producing for a known quantity of time.



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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: February 17, 2014 10:58AM
zt-
Electrical storage is done on a large scale in this country by generating companies. They use these storage sites to deal with the fact that energy demand is higher at peak times (Weekday mornings during factory startup, etc..). Energy storage ranges from potential to chemical energy storage. Energy storage involves lots of loss.

One popular solution is the 'reverse hydroelectric' reservoir. Water is pumped up a hill with the electricity, and when demand peaks, it flows back down through a generating turbine. Compressed air storage in large caverns is also used, but mostly experimentally. Large scale batteries (Sodium cells) are under research.
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Acer
Date: February 17, 2014 11:04AM
With diffuse generation systems, you need diffuse storage systems, otherwise you are back to Grand Centralized Projects.

What we need is a battery in the basement next to the hot water tank.
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: February 17, 2014 11:42AM
One of the utilities in California tried to build off-peak storage but some design mistakes cut the efficiency and output significantly.

Batteries in your basement are not really economical unless you put in enough to supply your entire energy use for 3 days, and the company that installs it will give you a 15 year guarantee. I would love to see a long term plan to integrate PHEV's into grid storage.



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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: February 17, 2014 11:59AM
Or sell old PHEV batteries as 'whole-house' w/ inverters as 'whole-house' UPS systems.

Charge them after midnight, use them for peak shaving during the day?

Also cheaper to run than a generator if the power fails.

Quote
Filliam H. Muffman
One of the utilities in California tried to build off-peak storage but some design mistakes cut the efficiency and output significantly.

Batteries in your basement are not really economical unless you put in enough to supply your entire energy use for 3 days, and the company that installs it will give you a 15 year guarantee. I would love to see a long term plan to integrate PHEV's into grid storage.
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: flareslow
Date: February 17, 2014 01:43PM
Here's an off-peak storage lake NW of Rome, GA.

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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: AllGold
Date: February 17, 2014 03:16PM
True, the wind doesn't always blow... locally, but it's always blowing somewhere. If we had a better grid system, no wind in Texas wouldn't be a problem because the wind would be howling in North Dakota.



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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Diana
Date: February 17, 2014 04:24PM
I work at OMRF as mentioned in this article:

http://earthtechling.com/2012/06/18-rooftop-wind-turbines-a-good-thing-no/

It was supposed to be completed much earlier than it was; the company OMRF contracted with originally went out of business before the contract could be completed. They were finished several years after the supposed finish date after a new company was found. They are helical in structure. We are a medical research foundation--hence the DNA-shaped turbines--and it was lauded as a first in this area.

Oklahoma City gets quite a few some windy days, but of course it isn't nearly enough to satisfy the energy requirements of the foundation. It does make a dent, however, and it does make for an interesting landmark.

Diana
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Re: vertical wind turbines
Posted by: Buck
Date: February 17, 2014 08:02PM
[www.youtube.com]
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