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Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: space-time
Date: March 29, 2014 09:54AM
[www.smh.com.au]

I doubt this is a smart move, those people have suffered enough, the sooner they get closure the better for them. Telling them there is still a remote chance of survivors seems wrong at this point. Even if they manager to get in life rafts, how can they survive for three weeks in that part of the ocean? Do they really believe in a LOST scenario here?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2014 09:54AM by space-time.
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: miK.
Date: March 29, 2014 09:57AM
Fitting web site... "smh.com" because I'm shaking my head at the notion of the airline telling the families
that any of them could possibly still be alive.



Sometimes I wonder, "What would Hodor say in this situation?" - Jim Gaffigan





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2014 09:58AM by miK..
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Black
Date: March 29, 2014 10:12AM
After reading the exact comments, I'm not sure what the problem here is, other than treating this statement (inappropriately) as if it were some sort of big announcement on the defense minister's part.




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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: testcase
Date: March 29, 2014 10:36AM
Actually TWO chances.........





slim........





and........





none at all






sad smiley
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 29, 2014 11:04AM
The Malaysian PM might regret his earlier statement that all had perished. This seems to me like an attempt to backtrack on that a little, kinda sounds like something an attorney made him say.

At the time it probably seemed like the kind thing to do, instead of keeping these grieving people in limbo, but in legal terms it might have been unwise. If for no other reason than they have no proof of this.
High likelihood? Of course. Definitive answer? No. The wreckage has to be ID's first and analyzed. Which might never happen.

Meanwhile, as expected attorneys for the passengers' families are lining up to sue the airline and Boeing and of course they and the media are helping to drive this idea that the families were mistreated and lied to by the airline and gov't officials. Very tragic situation all 'round.
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: billb
Date: March 29, 2014 11:14AM
What did you want him to do, break out the party hats and declare they're not spending another dime of his country's precious resources on shark bait ?

We don't get to decide when it is time for someone else to give up hope and when and for how long anyone else should grieve and/or mourn.

Just because you might be a heartless unmovable !@#$% doesn't mean everyone else in the world is.



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The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2014 11:15AM by billb.
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Black
Date: March 29, 2014 11:23AM
Quote
billb
What did you want him to do, break out the party hats and declare they're not spending another dime of his country's precious resources on shark bait ?
Clearly, we want them to do whatever it is they're not doing, and to stop doing whtever it is they are doing at any given moment regardless of what that may be.




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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 29, 2014 11:43AM
you know I think underlying that bit of callous-sounding hyperbole by both space-time and billb are some good, honorable intentions, so I'll just go with that.

So was this event survivable?
you have to look at the knowns/unknowns.
Knowns: (from my memory) plane went down in the remote, stormy Indian Ocean 3 weeks ago. It would have been out of fuel at that location, so it would have glided down gently for 100 miles or so before landing on the water. the engines would break off and sink like lead balloons. the rest?

Unknowns: was the landing controlled or uncontrolled? what happens to the body of a 777 in an open ocean landing? no way to know, never happened before, no way to test for this. in theory people could have survived, gotten into lifeboats or used parts of the plane for flotation, but then for how long? experts say some of these parts can float for quite while but it depends on conditions.

so that's horrible to ponder and it's easier for those of us who didn't know anybody on the plane to just hope they were already unconscious and died instantly in the crash, IOW - no suffering. but at this point there's really no way to say for certain.
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: PeterW
Date: March 29, 2014 11:53AM
Glided down gently?? 777's are not big metal gliders. When the engines quit, so does forward motion and all lift. It drops like a brick. Whether it augered in or went into a flat spin, nobody survived the landing period.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2014 11:54AM by PeterW.
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 29, 2014 12:03PM
Quote
PeterW
Glided down gently?? 777's are not big metal gliders. When the engines quit, so does forward motion and all lift. It drops like a brick. Whether it augered in or went into a flat spin, nobody survived the landing period.

No, that's not what always happens at total loss of thrust. There are many variables, but there is the possibility of glide.

The 777 should have some decent glide, the amount is a matter of debate.
Remember "the miracle on the Hudson?" There are other pretty famous examples...
Pilots are taught how to land the plane in the extremely unlikely event that all the engines go.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2014 12:04PM by Lemon Drop.
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Black
Date: March 29, 2014 12:33PM
Quote
PeterW
Glided down gently?? 777's are not big metal gliders. When the engines quit, so does forward motion and all lift. It drops like a brick. Whether it augered in or went into a flat spin, nobody survived the landing period.

Even if there is a total engine failure at 35,000ft, a plane can continue to glide and pilots have about 15 to 20 minutes to do what they need to, such as send alerts.
[www.thejakartapost.com]
Not sure what this is based on or how reliable this source is.
Not finding anything better specific to this question...this isn't bad though:
[www.askthepilot.com]




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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: GGD
Date: March 29, 2014 12:46PM
There have been several cases where airliners had to glide for some period of time.

[en.wikipedia.org]

There were two cases where 747s lost all four engines at the same time due to volcanic ash and had to glide until they were able to restart (which took several attempts).

Quote

Despite the lack of time, Moody made an announcement to the passengers that has been described as "a masterpiece of understatement":[3]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress.[3][4][5]

[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: p8712
Date: March 29, 2014 12:59PM
Quote
GGD
There have been several cases where airliners had to glide for some period of time.

[en.wikipedia.org]

There were two cases where 747s lost all four engines at the same time due to volcanic ash and had to glide until they were able to restart (which took several attempts).

Quote

Despite the lack of time, Moody made an announcement to the passengers that has been described as "a masterpiece of understatement":[3]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress.[3][4][5]

[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]

Don't forget this one. Darn metric system!
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Black
Date: March 29, 2014 01:00PM
Quote
GGD
There have been several cases where airliners had to glide for some period of time.

[en.wikipedia.org]

There were two cases where 747s lost all four engines at the same time due to volcanic ash and had to glide until they were able to restart (which took several attempts).

Quote

Despite the lack of time, Moody made an announcement to the passengers that has been described as "a masterpiece of understatement":[3]

Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress.[3][4][5]

[en.wikipedia.org]
[en.wikipedia.org]
Good stuff, thank you.




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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Lemon Drop
Date: March 29, 2014 01:06PM
[www.decodedscience.com]

this is a pretty good description from a commercial pilot about a water ditching scenario for the 777.

you can always plow through the 777 FCOM for "prepared forced landing" over water, (aka ditching) which is according to pilots the most difficult and stressful part of the pilot's exam, and the real life aviation scenario they most dread to encounter as pilots.

of course this doesn't begin the explain the mystery of this particular flight: if the pilots were still alive and trying to save the plane at that point, why no emergency communication and no attempts to land over land? all ability to communicate and navigate was lost?
we just don't know what happened.
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Article Accelerator
Date: March 29, 2014 01:16PM
Quote
PeterW
Glided down gently?? 777's are not big metal gliders. When the engines quit, so does forward motion and all lift. It drops like a brick.

Not quite. Even a Boeing 767 moves 12 feet forward for every foot of descent:

[en.wikipedia.org]
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Black
Date: March 29, 2014 01:20PM
12:1 is also the minimum required for accessible ramps by the ADA.





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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: March 29, 2014 01:43PM
Quote
Black
12:1 is also the minimum required for accessible ramps by the ADA.

good observation; I think this thread is wrapped up now.
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Re: Missing Malaysia Airlines plane: relatives told there is still a 'remote chance' of survivors
Posted by: Racer X
Date: March 29, 2014 10:01PM
Even with total electrical failure, and no fuel, most commercial transoceanic airliners have RATs. [en.wikipedia.org] many also have an APU, indipendant of the main turbines, but those do require fuel. Unusual for total and complete loss of all electrical power for communications.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2014 10:03PM by Racer X.
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