As many of you know, Mrs. cbelt3 suffers from RA , fibromyalgia, and spinal stenosis. In short, she's a lady in pain 24/7. (The pain in the tush that is myself is low down on the spectrum most of the time..)

Well, thanks to the prescription drug addiction craze, the Federal gummint and Ohio set up a bunch of 'protect the population' laws which pretty much almost criminalized the medical practice of pain management. And keeping to those laws requires pain management practitioners to treat their patients like criminals. And they hate it.

One of the things they are required to do is drug test their patients. Quarterly. They test for the drugs the patient is supposed to be taking, and test for drug the patient is NOT supposed to be taking. And usually, everything is fine. Because people with chronic pain NEED to feel relief, and need to have a good relationship with their doctor.

She's been working with the same doctor for 8 years now. He's awesome. His eldest son attended the same school our son went to, and they were buddies for a few years. We've been to his house, know his family (as a result).

Some years ago, a now ex-friend of our children began stealing my wife's pain meds, and replacing them with look-alike vitamin pills. So she was in pain, and didn't understand it. And the tox screen said... she's not taking her meds. Whaaa ? Shortly thereafter the same kid tried to OD at our house (!). He went to the hospital, and I went to the store and bought a small safe to put her pills in. Problem solved.

And shortly after Thanksgiving this year, she took another test. And tested positive for.. Morphine. Whaaaat ? And her doctor then was required to tell her that she was now on 'probation'. And she would have to take another test (last week). And if it came back positive she would be 'fired' and have to go to an addiction rehab specialist.

She was devastated. Chronic pain breeds depression like almost nothing else. And so she's been incredibly depressed. I ran to the interwebs and began researching. And discovered... Poppies. Specifically poppy seed strudel. An old German family tradition for the holidays. She loves it, and was happily eating some the day of her test.

So she went in for the test, and I showed the doctor a 1990's study sponsored by the DOD that says that this is likely. He agreed, but STILL had to have her take the test. And she was still at risk. So no poppy seed anything for my girl.

Today we got the results. And she's clean. She went in to get her updated prescription, and the staff (who she adores) were teasing and joking with her again.

Morals of the story ?
1- Addicts and over-reacting politicians made getting care stupidly hard for people in pain.

2- Skip the poppy seeds.

I actually kind of thought the poppy seed thing was well known. I've seen it used as a plot in sitcoms, even.

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Quote
$tevie
I actually kind of thought the poppy seed thing was well known. I've seen it used as a plot in sitcoms, even.

So have I. Which pretty much led me to believe it was a joke.

---

From the interwebs:
"This poppy seed strudel recipe showcases the distinctive taste of poppy seed filling that is so popular in European sweets rolled inside a yeast dough crust. Unlike many recipes, this one does not skimp on the poppy seed. This is not like wimpy poppy seed muffins or bagels that really use the fragrant seed only for some added color or texture. This strudel really lets you taste the poppy seeds. I am a huge fan of poppy seed desserts and like to see the thick swirls of tasty black poppy seed filling in this strudel. Yum!"
[snip]
"Filling Ingredients:
1 1/2 cups of Ground Poppy Seed"

I never new Germans had such a thing for poppy seeds, but I know they loves them some saffron. Bulking up on spices must be how they pass those long winters.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2016 03:40PM by Acer.

Quote
$tevie
I actually kind of thought the poppy seed thing was well known.

Ditto.

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It is what it is.

Acer - yup. Also seeds so lots of protein. And apparently (according to my inlaws) in the old country a tea brewed from poppy seeds was a popular sleep aid and teething pain aid for the little ones.

The other factor is that modern drug tests are SO sensitive. The morphine detection threshold in the one her doctor uses is 50 nl per ml. That's 5 hundred thousands. The 1990's study I found said that eating Australian poppy seed rolls (a lower poppy seed consumption that the German stuff) produces 3-10 microliters of morphine per milliliter. That's 60 to 200 times the detection threshold.

Gotta watch out for them poppies, man.

Wow, cbelt, I am in about the same situation with pain! Same three things you mentioned, RA, fibromyalgia (which I call THE MESS), all kind of spine mess, as I type, needing to have three discs in my neck fused.

I under care (loosely defined) of the VA system, doc told me last year that the gubmint will not allow me to have percocet now. So, I'm only on tramadol, which I call a mild pain reliever. I only take one a day. Days with bad pain, I just suffer, throw up, etc.

Poppy seeds, eh? I re-read your post, but I don't understand? So, is poppy seed good for pain, or neutral? Doesn't help a bit. Which is it? If good, I'll have Ethyl make some poppy seed cakes, or something.

---

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Quote
Acer
From the interwebs:
"This poppy seed strudel recipe showcases the distinctive taste of poppy seed filling that is so popular in European sweets rolled inside a yeast dough crust. Unlike many recipes, this one does not skimp on the poppy seed. This is not like wimpy poppy seed muffins or bagels that really use the fragrant seed only for some added color or texture. This strudel really lets you taste the poppy seeds. I am a huge fan of poppy seed desserts and like to see the thick swirls of tasty black poppy seed filling in this strudel. Yum!"
[snip]
"Filling Ingredients:
1 1/2 cups of Ground Poppy Seed"

I never new Germans had such a thing for poppy seeds, but I know they loves them some saffron. Bulking up on spices must be how they pass those long winters.

That looks really good! I can feel my morphine levels rising just looking at it.

---

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Been dealing w/ similar issues for many years, and also invested in a safe for the meds awhile back. Problem is, the safe is a pain to deal with on a regular and ongoing basis, so I take out about 4 to 5 days worth at a time, and rotate hiding places as best I can. Still usually have a couple of pills in my shirt pocket that mostly resides on the bedpost when not being worn, making it easy pickin's for a single pill or two. We had "disappearing" issues a few years ago, but after the safe, and rotating hiding places, theft has gone way down.

Now, with more pain meds requiring a new prescription each time, it gets to be a hassle. There are more and more stories of the new pains now associated with pain management. On the flip side, it's also a jumbo pain to curtail abuse of pain meds. I don't know what the solution is, short of finding some way to genetically modify the human addiction gene. As long there is a large segment of the population that have addiction traits, it's gonna be tough on the population that really needs pain management.

Agree on the poppy seed bagels, strudel, homentaschen, etc.; just gotta lay off a week or so before the test.

Somebody needs to provide a *low cost* biometric pill dispenser for home use. Something that would eliminate the threat of theft by unauthorized users. A multi-fingerprint/palmprint, and/or retina scan, that spits out a pill when properly activated, rather than hassling with getting in and out of the safe for each dose or two. It sucks that folks with real chronic pain have to suffer because of the abuse by others that are just in it because they choose to be abusers.
==

GGene... poppy seeds only help for the pain if you consume a distillation of them. And distilled incorrectly can result in OD and death.

Percoct ? The real issue is liver function problems from the acetaminophen component.

Mrs. cbelt3 was switched from that for that reason to time released hydromorphone.

When they find something else, withdrawal from that is going to suck.

If someone ever finds a way to accurately and chemically measure pain in a human, they will gain the undying affection of hundreds of millions of chronic pain sufferers.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2016 11:39PM by Acer.

There's something about this I just found out this week: To get a refill from the doctor, he can't fax it to the pharmacy. A person must get it from the doctor. All they apparently need is the patient's birthday. If the doctor is in another town, the person picking up the script can mail it to the patient who can take it to the pharmacy.

Someone might correct me. This is what I gathered from my niece picking up the prescription from my mom's doctor who was two hours away.

Quote
cbelt3
GGene... poppy seeds only help for the pain if you consume a distillation of them. And distilled incorrectly can result in OD and death.

Percoct ? The real issue is liver function problems from the acetaminophen component.

Mrs. cbelt3 was switched from that for that reason to time released hydromorphone.

When they find something else, withdrawal from that is going to suck.

If someone ever finds a way to accurately and chemically measure pain in a human, they will gain the undying affection of hundreds of millions of chronic pain sufferers.

As you note, they've cut down on the acetaminophen (tylenol) component of the hydrocodone and oxycodone variants because of liver concerns. Now, it seems the largest tylenol component you can get is 325mg, and they're trying to get that down to 300mg (or heaven help me) even less.

With those combo meds, the tylenol is more of a distribution binder for the more potent opiate it's bringing along for the ride. More tylenol usually meant "faster acting" to get maximum relief. Rather than switching to Dilaudid, I just allow an additional half hour, or so, in the morning for the meds to kick in.
==

Our Gub'mint seems hellbent on making certain things extremely difficult for law abiding people (like Mrs. Cbelt) to obtain what they need by passing laws that ultimately do nothing to curtail the ability of non law abiding citizens to obtain the same items (in this case meds) illegally. To me, this is like all the gun law hoo-ha. They pass laws against guns (for example) but if you don't care about obeying laws, a new law is not going to be a deterrent! Personally, I think our law makers need to be beaten about the head and shoulders to knock some sense into them! Start working for the people. /end rant.

Hey, what about those Bruins!?!

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- Jack D.




New tasteless sig coming soon!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2016 04:28PM by Jack D..

Man, I was going to be so sad if the story turned out that she didn't pass the second test. I'm glad she did, though sorry to hear of all the other troubles. I have a few other comments in mind, but they could be considered political and don't want to risk this thread getting moved.

I wish you the best.

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Quote
Dennis S
There's something about this I just found out this week: To get a refill from the doctor, he can't fax it to the pharmacy. A person must get it from the doctor. All they apparently need is the patient's birthday. If the doctor is in another town, the person picking up the script can mail it to the patient who can take it to the pharmacy.

Someone might correct me. This is what I gathered from my niece picking up the prescription from my mom's doctor who was two hours away.

Dennis-
In Ohio, the laws changed last year so only the patient or their spouse (if approved in writing by the patient) or someone with medical power of attorney can pick up the prescription for Schedule II medication. To pick it up I have to hand over my ID, which is copied with the signed prescription for their files, which are subject to state and federal audit. Then I have to sign an electronic pad while my photo is taken with a web camera. I have to leave work to drive to the doctor to get her prescription. Once a month. They are only allowed to prescribe 30 days at a time.

Getting the medication from the pharmacist is easier.. I just have to know her name and birthday. Oh, and we are only allowed to fill her pain prescriptions at ONE pharmacy.

It's SO frustrating. People in pain are being made to jump through a lot of hoops because politicians over-reacted.

Ohio does allow prescribing and dispensing 90 day supplies of CII medications. Your prescriber may not as a policy prescribe in these quantities, and your insurer may not pay for these quantities.

About 30 years ago the paper I was working at started drug testing new employees. They, of course, opted for the cheapest test they could find. The very first person to test positive was the new Executive Editor who had eaten a few poppy seed bagels with senior staff.

That was the end of the drug tests (the man was hired to lead the company and his management style drove many of us to start using drugs.

---

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"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

In late 2014 I had my second back surgery which required me to take pain medication. At the same time my GP moved out of state. I quickly learned that no clinic in my area would accept me as a new patient while I was taking pain medication as I represented too high of a risk. So if I got sick my care options were limited to the emergency room or one of those second rate day clinics.

By spring of 2015 I no longer required pain medication and was able to start seeing a new GP. Her very first words to me where, "I don't prescribe pain medication." Apparently she had reviewed my history and made her own conclusion.

Cbelt3 is right that chronic pain can cause depression. Not just from the pain but from the assumptions people make about you. My best wishes to your wife and the others who are struggling with pain.

---

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The thing that's really effed up about drug testing is that it only impacts those who have something to lose if they test positive.

Like a job.

Drug testing does not stop drug abusers and junkies from using drugs.

The poppy seed thing is well known.
The few times I've had to leave a sample for le drug test ( employ and TWIC ) there were warnings that poppy seeds, cold meds and anti-depressants could cause a false positive.
What sucked was zero tolerance could get you unemployed for 30-60-90 days


I'v known two people who messed up their lives with pain meds. So requiring testing for everyone may seem a bit intrusive but until there is a way to identify who a "typical" abuser could possibly be there really doesn't seem to be much recourse.


Mixing some pain med with even small amounts of alcohol can mess some people up. I don't believe there is a way to identify who those people could possibly be in advance of an incident either.


Substance abusers are usually pretty good at gaming the system unfortunately.

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My "mother" in law had a false positive last month too. She had a poppyseed muffin and Starbuck's coffee with her when she went in for testing.

The testing facilities should just calm down and run the more reliable and exact test automatically if there is a positive. No need to get wound up, or wind up the patient.


They never gave me any grief or forced testing on my when I was on vicodin, and later on added MS contin. Took them for years several times daily.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2016 07:03PM by Racer X.

Not sure if Ohio is a state with medical cannabis - but if it is, that might be an option - many people get good pain relief when using it.

No med pot here . She even tried it once after she retired from her health care career. Said it didn't work at all. She still hurt , and was dizzy too.

Rusty-

Ask her doctor about switching from percocet to norco. Norco has fewer side effects than percocet but isn't as effective for everyone - works fine for me, not so much for the wife who is now percocet dependent. Doctors have concluded the dependency is a better alternative than the pain.

Dilaudid use is something that's probably best left to a hospital setting. After a recent elbow surgery the hospital doc prescribed it for me, my primary insisted I dump them and stay with norco. That worked for me.

Just want to express my best wishes to all of you dealing with chronic pain - it impacts an entire family.

Very glad this worked out!

Quote
freeradical
The thing that's really effed up about drug testing is that it only impacts those who have something to lose if they test positive.

Like a job.

Drug testing does not stop drug abusers and junkies from using drugs.

This. I have to physically pick up my scrip for hydrocodone from my doc-can't call it in anymore. And it has to be written on a special prescription form.
For Mrs. c to have to endure this grief for something not of her doing is unconscionable.

---

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Quote
DP

Quote
freeradical
The thing that's really effed up about drug testing is that it only impacts those who have something to lose if they test positive.

Like a job.

Drug testing does not stop drug abusers and junkies from using drugs.

This. I have to physically pick up my scrip for hydrocodone from my doc-can't call it in anymore. And it has to be written on a special prescription form.
For Mrs. c to have to endure this grief for something not of her doing is unconscionable.

That was a change in federal regs that kicked in last year. My primary now has to write rather than just reup our scripts. It's just another intrusion politicos urged be put in between doctors and patients, ask women how much they like government intruding on their health lives.

Different story when it's suddenly your ox being gored...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2016 07:29AM by RgrF.

Quote
RgrF

Quote
DP

Quote
freeradical
The thing that's really effed up about drug testing is that it only impacts those who have something to lose if they test positive.

Like a job.

Drug testing does not stop drug abusers and junkies from using drugs.

This. I have to physically pick up my scrip for hydrocodone from my doc-can't call it in anymore. And it has to be written on a special prescription form.
For Mrs. c to have to endure this grief for something not of her doing is unconscionable.

That was a change in federal regs that kicked in last year. My primary now has to write rather than just reup our scripts. It's just another intrusion politicos urged be put in between doctors and patients, ask women how much they like government intruding on their health lives.

Different story when it's suddenly your ox being gored...

What really gripes me is that the same people that scream "get government out of our lives" are the ones that enact legislation like this.

---

Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

I think MythBusters tested this and proved it was true as well.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2016 08:54AM by ztirffritz.

The government being involved in pain management is only a pain to those of us who have lots of pain to be managed.

It doesn't stop abusers. That's why the pill abusers are switching to heroin.

Having degenerating discs since 1978 has been a real joy. Definitely has a depressing effect on life.

I can't stop my physical work so I just do the best I can, Ibuprophin, Glucosomine, Flaxseed Oil, and Tramadol get me thru...it's not a life for a punk.

Per some of the families of my patients, prescription pain pills sell for $35 to $60 EACH on the street.
Heroin sells for $10 to $20 per bindle, and it is often cut with fentanyl locally.
No wonder why this small area has an incredible heroin issue, worse than metropolitan areas I have worked.

Quote
Surfrider
The government being involved in pain management is only a pain to those of us who have lots of pain to be managed.

It doesn't stop abusers. That's why the pill abusers are switching to heroin.

Having degenerating discs since 1978 has been a real joy. Definitely has a depressing effect on life.

I can't stop my physical work so I just do the best I can, Ibuprophin, Glucosomine, Flaxseed Oil, and Tramadol get me thru...it's not a life for a punk.

Similar to me, Surf. Spinal fusion straight back from 'Nam, all kinds of mess ever since. You take about the same things as me. I also take cymbalta, which helps with fibromyalgia mess. Oh well boys, we're gonna make it.

---

That old man - he don't think like no old man...
Now I wouldn't want to be within 400 - 500 yards of one of them nuclear bombs when it goes off! WW1 Vet Old Man
"He's pinned under an outcropping of rock. Lucky for him, the rock kept the dirt from burying him alive."
If idiots could fly, this place would be an airport. And I'd be a TSA agent.
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Quote
JoeBob
Per some of the families of my patients, prescription pain pills sell for $35 to $60 EACH on the street.
Heroin sells for $10 to $20 per bindle, and it is often cut with fentanyl locally.
No wonder why this small area has an incredible heroin issue, worse than metropolitan areas I have worked.

What kind of pain pills are these of which you speak? and what area are you located? and I thought a bindle was a hobo's version of a rucksack. I'm thoroughly dazed and confused; not to be confused with the forumite of the same name.
==

It is worth remembering that many drug seekers begin by self-medicating for emotional pain. And once they become addicted, coming off the drugs is doubly difficult -- tapering off drugs is painful in itself, and the original issues that triggered the addiction still remain.

Laws are not really the ultimate solution, since people who are in extreme pain often feel driven to do anything that will stop the pain, regardless of the consequences.

In the long run, we need to better understand the circumstances that bring people to drug abuse, and look for ways for them to live that mitigate the emotional pain of difficult life circumstances.

Unfortunately, that kind of research requires more time and money than people are willing to spend. It is easier and cheaper to claim the moral high ground by promulgating laws intended to control pain medications, meanwhile ignoring the fact that these laws only serve to increase the suffering of everyone concerned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2016 07:44PM by Janit.

Percocet, Vicodin, Norco. Oxycontin are good for $60 each.
Wilmington, NC. Bindle is a small plastic envelope of heroin, good for one or two doses.

And yet, you can buy codeine/acetaminophen OTC (well, behind the counter) in Canada. You can even bring 50 pills back over the border. Called 222s in Canada. Higher numbers have a higher codeine dosage.

It's not that the human beings are different there, they just handle it differently.

I've known about them for decades. I live in Seattle, and every time I go into Canada I get a bottle. Started as a teenager in Sea Scouts taking cruises up to Vancouver or Victoria. I and another suffered from migraines, and they really worked. They also contain some caffeine to counteract the drowsiness that can also help with migraines.

To sum it up, here we are treated like drug-addicted criminals, there, like a human in pain, deserving compassion and assistance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2016 11:19PM by Racer X.

It's really all part and parcel of the pharmaceutical industry drive to sustain it's unconscionable pricing and profit structure, when a Kiwi or Canuck or Serb or Argentinian can buy for 15¢ what you pay $6 for, you know you're being had.

Quote
Janit
It is worth remembering that many drug seekers begin by self-medicating for emotional pain. And once they become addicted, coming off the drugs is doubly difficult -- tapering off drugs is painful in itself, and the original issues that triggered the addiction still remain.

Laws are not really the ultimate solution, since people who are in extreme pain often feel driven to do anything that will stop the pain, regardless of the consequences.

In the long run, we need to better understand the circumstances that bring people to drug abuse, and look for ways for them to live that mitigate the emotional pain of difficult life circumstances.

Unfortunately, that kind of research requires more time and money than people are willing to spend. It is easier and cheaper to claim the moral high ground by promulgating laws intended to control pain medications, meanwhile ignoring the fact that these laws only serve to increase the suffering of everyone concerned.

Wow, that's a real oxymoronic conundrum; in many ways.</insert appropriate emoji here/>

Unfortunately (also), is that physical pain and emotional pain are all too often interconnected, wherein one begets the other, and the total pain snowballs. Typical pain meds are (obviously) meant to help control physical pain, but as repeatedly noted, they are all too often abused to deal with emotional pain.

Physical pain needs to be controlled, but it seems that the bureaucrats feel the need to stick their noses into everyone's business. Sadly, it's true that a large portion of the population cannot control their addictive behaviors. I don't know what the best solution is, but more and more regulation doesn't feel right.

While I understand stuff like cutting back on the acetaminophen with opioid based meds; it is a massive personal inconvenience, and for other chronic pain sufferers that have to wait longer for pain relief. Many of us were, and are plenty capable of monitoring/controlling our intake, as well as our liver function levels, yet we're denied access to meds that work, and are lumped in with people who cannot or will not do so. The feds tylenol-liver watch wrath penalizes me 20-30 minutes each and every morning

And now to hear that this ridiculous legislation has evolved to the point of $60 percocet/vicodin on the streets of our country... I had no idea, but that's just so very wrong. Clearly the system isn't working when what should be legitimate prescription meds are ten time the price of heroin. It's been several decades since my college econ classes, but IIRC, the laws of supply and demand are skewed on a precarious tilt.

There's a lot of news coverage on tv and the interwebs about all sorts of designer drugs. Maybe big pharma ought to design some sort of non-physically addicting "feel good" drugs that could obviate, or at least severely mitigate the street drug trade...

The demand for drugs is not going away any time soon. I would think that with all the current medical testing available, something less than a couple of dozen "feel good" drug profiles would be sufficient. People could go into the clinic, or their doc's office, get a blood test along with some medical history (w/ modest psych eval), and out pops the recs for the two or three best suited feel good meds for them. It could be the death knell for street drugs.

Frankly, part of me thinks the bureaucrats and drug lords have some sort of back office shenanigans going on to keep thing going for long term job security, but that's probably more appropriate for the other side. Mostly just agreeing in frustration with Janit's thoughts.
==

It's an extension on the "war on drugs". That war has supported tens of thousands of government employees for as long as anyone but a few old codgers like me can remember. These sort of unintentional side effects are harder to overcome than many of the addictions that they don't even try to remedy.

An oddity for me is the supposed "high" drugs like the old vicodin or today's norco and percocet seem to offer to some. I've been prescribed these sort of pain killers since various surgeries needed after an aneurysm and later aorta replacement.

I'm a child of the sixties, believe me I know what a high is. I've never experienced anything like a "high" from their use. What am I doing wrong?

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rgG

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RgrF

Quote
DP

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freeradical
The thing that's really effed up about drug testing is that it only impacts those who have something to lose if they test positive.

Like a job.

Drug testing does not stop drug abusers and junkies from using drugs.

This. I have to physically pick up my scrip for hydrocodone from my doc-can't call it in anymore. And it has to be written on a special prescription form.
For Mrs. c to have to endure this grief for something not of her doing is unconscionable.

That was a change in federal regs that kicked in last year. My primary now has to write rather than just reup our scripts. It's just another intrusion politicos urged be put in between doctors and patients, ask women how much they like government intruding on their health lives.

Different story when it's suddenly your ox being gored...

What really gripes me is that the same people that scream "get government out of our lives" are the ones that enact legislation like this.

The current DEA, FDA and the Department of Health and Human Services ?


These people ?
[www.huffingtonpost.com]

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/21/2016 03:46PM by billb.