Me and my fam are looking to move from the weird world of nyc transit to Madison, WI. We will need to buy a car, a used car. Two adults and a toddler.

I think the first choice we need to make is whether to get a small suv or a sedan. I'm leaning toward Honda CR-V in this class of vehicle. It seems plentiful and practical. It would roomy. 4 wheel drive and higher ground clearance are nice but not necessary. Maybe I should consider a RAV4 hybrid?

Maybe we should consider a Subaru Outback.

Buuut maybe we should go a bit smaller than that. Perhaps a Prius or similar vehicle. Once again, i'm trying to be practical. On occasion it would probably be a bit small. But for daily use it seems like plenty. Heck, I've never had a car. A smaller car will still feel like a lot of car....at least at first. I know that some people would straight up refuse to consider a sedan when raising a kid but...we're pretty sure we're not those people.

I'm curious how much time I should budget to buy a car. My sister had a good experience at carmax. Its my hope that I can keep it to a day or two. I don't want to put a lot of time into it and I don't want to spend forever looking for a deal. The alternative would be a monthly rental of a car but those look to be around $1,000/month. Not cheap!

any advice / opinions?

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Toyota Highlander is a mid-size SUV built on a Camry (sedan) chassis. Drives like a sedan, but roomy for all your groceries and stuff. Roof rails on top or trailer hitch on back for bike rack. Highlanders hold their value quite well.

PSA: Be prepared to pay the bogus $10 SUV surcharge at parking garages At least, that's what they charge here in NYC.

Are you planning to have additional kids? If not, a smaller SUV should be find. I would suggest the Forester over the Outlook - it more closely matches up to the CR-V and RAV4 you mentioned, has plenty of interior space for the three of you, and has AWD in its DNA, which I think is a big plus for winters in Madison.

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It is what it is.

As the owner of a 2000 CR-V, I've noticed the newer CR-Vs have gotten bigger on the outside but not bigger on the inside. You might also consider a Honda Fit. Would be cheaper than a CR-V and you're not giving up much interior space, but retain flexibility. would be ok for 1 kid in a car seat for sure. Not as nice for highway driving, but depends on what your needs are. And depends on if you're the type to keep a car forever, or keep for a couple years and then upgrade.

As far as buying, know how much you can spend and what you want. From there, it's not that hard, you just find what's available and explore your options, whether via carmax, independents or for sale by owner. If you know or have a trusted mechanic that you can use to check out the car, always worth it when buying used.

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mattkime
I don't want to put a lot of time into it and I don't want to spend forever looking for a deal. any advice / opinions?

The biggest time suck ever is car shopping online. Go out for test drives. You'll know right away if the car is right for you.

A friend spent a couple winters in Madison. The Forester was fine for him.

good advice. but would like to assemble a list of cars to look at.

oh, for what its worth, i'll buy in wisconsin.

I've taken a brief look at 'luxury' cars to see what people pay for....and i can't figure it out. (aside from a large symbol that says 'i spent too much money')

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3d

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mattkime
I don't want to put a lot of time into it and I don't want to spend forever looking for a deal. any advice / opinions?

The biggest time suck ever is car shopping online. Go out for test drives. You'll know right away if the car is right for you.

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If you are considering the Prius, but think it may be a tad small, check out the Prius V. A tad roomier, but still gets good mileage.
Just my 2 cents.
As other posters said, go out a drive them, looking online to compare can be good, but you still need to drive it to see if you will be able to live with it.

Dave

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Welcome to Dave's BBQ!

Many have eaten here....

Few have died

I would venture and guess you can't go wrong with Toyota, Honda or Subaru. Three showrooms will take a full day. Ohh,,, Also keep in mind what type of gas the car takes. Stick with a car that takes regular gas, this being a "deals" forum and all ;)

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mattkime
good advice. but would like to assemble a list of cars to look at.

oh, for what its worth, i'll buy in wisconsin.

I've taken a brief look at 'luxury' cars to see what people pay for....and i can't figure it out. (aside from a large symbol that says 'i spent too much money')

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3d

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mattkime
I don't want to put a lot of time into it and I don't want to spend forever looking for a deal. any advice / opinions?

The biggest time suck ever is car shopping online. Go out for test drives. You'll know right away if the car is right for you.

Yeah, IMHO 4WD/AWD is a must have in WI.

The Prii may be the world's worst snow cars, they get high centered going into average parking lots with snow. And they are so light that they can slide in any ice.

If you want to go smaller than the CRV/RAV/Forester small SUV, there are not too many AWD options. You might look at the Subaru Crosstrek (a raised Impreza.)

If you go small SUV, there are a number of Mazda fans here, and the ratings of the CX5 are good. I would put it on the list with the CRV, etc. for a test drive. (I also like the Highlander mentioned above, but I am betting "third row" SUVs will wait for more offspring.

You will be seduced by the dark side of the money, er....Force, and tempted to save the money and gas mileage that AWD "costs". Resist! You will be living in winter! And you are outdoors folks. It will be worth it when it saves your partner from driving into a light pole.

>>Yeah, IMHO 4WD/AWD is a must have in WI.

Any fool can out stupid 4WD/AWD and a careful driver can make do without.

...I should talk to my family about this. Maybe I shouldn't be so dismissive. I need a "real wisconsin" perspective on it.

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mattkime
>>Yeah, IMHO 4WD/AWD is a must have in WI.

Any fool can out stupid 4WD/AWD and a careful driver can make do without.

...I should talk to my family about this. Maybe I shouldn't be so dismissive. I need a "real wisconsin" perspective on it.

I live in La Crosse, WI. An hour from Madison. I have a Subaru Forester and a Pontiac Vibe AWD. I personally wouldn't purchase a car without AWD. It isn't that you necessarily HAVE to have it, it just makes it much much easier to get around in the winter and is one less thing to worry about. There will be days in the winter where it is not safe to drive with a FWD only car. Probably a only a handful of days in a bad winter season. We had one day like that last year, none this year. You would just have to plan on not going in to work or anywhere else those days.

I'd also add that I would pick up a set of snow tires, or all seasons that rate highly in the snow. I had a set of Pirelli P4 4 Season Plus tires installed on the Forester. They are kind of a hybrid of All Seasons and Snow tires but you can run them year round and they have a 70k mile tread life warranty. They handle significantly better in the snow/ice than all seasons. I'd say probably 85% as good as a dedicated snow tire and easily 10x as good as the stock all seasons.

As far as cars, my short list for AWD SUVs would be:
Subaru Forester/Outback/Crosstrek
Mazda CX-3/5
CR-V/RAV4

For Cars:
Subaru Impreza or Legacy
Audi A4
Volvo S60

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C(-)ris
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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2017 04:05PM by C(-)ris.

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Any fool can out stupid 4WD/AWD and a careful driver can make do without.

I, too, fell for the dark side on several vehicles. And never hit a light pole.

But when you live with it every day, and you see otherwise decent drivers in ditches.....and then think about wife and baby off the road because they had to avoid an idiot.....welp

I think the cost and mileage is not the hit. The hit is having to help 2WD folks who are stuck!

btw, there is a reason that Subaru sells most of its cars in the northern tier and the Rockies. And Honda can barely keep CRVs and Pilots in stock.

If the Prius V (which is really sort of a mini-SUV) isn't good in snow, I highly recommend the RAV4 hybrid--great vehicle, all have all wheel drive:

[www.toyota.com]

Looks like they're offering 72 months at 0% financing; not sure if that applies to the hybrid:

[www.toyota.com]

QUITE a geographic change for you guys ! It's going to involve some culture shock from dat big Apple.

Living in the Cleveland Snow belt, I LOVE my 2008 CRV. Admittedly I can handle pretty much anything in my little Civic except more than about 4 inches of accumulated snow. But the AWD just gives me more confidence.

The CRV rear doors open pretty wide to get the little one in and out. And has back space for gear and whatnot. It's not a minivan, but you can put two child seats in the back if you need to. But room for a back seat parent to mange the children will be tight. Hondas and Subarus are the go to small SUV around this area. RAV/4's less so... their reliability recently has been less stellar.

Definitely the snow tires idea is a good one. That will depend on how much space you have for garaging. Most folks get a set of rims with the snow tires, and just swap wheels when winter starts. I personally just ride with all season tires, but there have been a number of times when snow tires would have really made the difference in feeling more secure.

And.. to heck with the "American small SUV". They are mostly made in Canada or Mexico. The CRV is almost 100% American parts and assembly. And their reliability stinks.

I know that some people would straight up refuse to consider a sedan when raising a kid but...we're pretty sure we're not those people.

we survived with 2 Honda Civics until last year. We have 2 kids, now 11 and 7, so yes, you can manage with smaller cars. Just don't expect to get strollers AND suitcases in the trunk.

in my experience, snow tires are just as important, if not even more important that AWD.

You might want to consider adding a Honda HR-V to your list. My understanding is it's a smaller, less-expensive version of the CR-V.

A friend leased one after finding out he can fit his bicycle in the back without having to take off the wheels. He's pretty happy with his choice.

I can't advise you on a particular vehicle, but I think that a sedan is way too limiting when you have kids. First off, there's always mass quantities of junk to cart around when you have kids (strollers, playpens, toys, diaper bags, etc). Second, kids have friends and playmates. You won't be carting around only two adults and one kid much. This gets worse as time goes by, and expect to be driving around half the soccer team or swim team in a few years. Living in environmentally conscious Berkeley, I know lots of people who attempted to get by with a small car while having kids. They all regretted it. The ones with more than one kid even regretted getting a small SUV (Forester, RAV-4, etc) instead of a larger one because they were too cramped. If you don't have a need for 4WD, I would highly encourage you to go the minivan route instead of the SUV route. However, based on my experiences in the California mountains I think I'd probably lean towards the SUV in a snow state.

One very important aspect that most people don't think of is how far do you expect to drive. For the last twenty years, my wife and I have always tried to live very close to work, thus minimizing the commute. As a result, the gas mileage our car gets or whether it takes premium or regular doesn't matter a whole lot to us because we just don't buy much gas except on road trips. Buying a hybrid would be a total waste of money for us since they are only worthwhile for people doing many miles of urban stop-and-go type driving. That means that we have a relatively large SUV (Acura MDX, equivalent to the Honda Pilot), which provides much more comfort and carrying space than our neighbors' RAV4s and Honda CRVs. Also, don't fall into the trap of buying a small vehicle and then strapping a roof box on it because it is too small. It's well documented that those things can increase gas consumption by 30% on smaller vehicles. The dumbest thing I see around here is people with Priuses and gigantic roof boxes.

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"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2017 06:03PM by davester.

Well, in this fairly early stage you can certainly narrow down your choices fairly easily without subjecting yourself to a salesweasel from a specific dealership. Bring the fam, get an up-close look, sit in and eliminate accordingly all in one shot.
[www.autoshowny.com]

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space-time
in my experience, snow tires are just as important, if not even more important that AWD.

That's kind of a duh! It's pointless to have an AWD vehicle without snow tires. I can assure you that an AWD vehicle with snow tires will get you many more places more safely than a 2WD vehicle with snow tires.

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"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

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davester

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space-time
in my experience, snow tires are just as important, if not even more important that AWD.

That's kind of a duh! It's pointless to have an AWD vehicle without snow tires. I can assure you that an AWD vehicle with snow tires will get you many more places more safely than a 2WD vehicle with snow tires.

yet you wouldn't believe how many AWD drivers have all season tires.

Enjoying my RAV4 Hybrid that I bought last July. It's got 10,000 miles on it now. Drives great. 34 mpg in cold weather and 36 mpg in warm weather. My original post link

My last car was a Subaru Outback with snow tires, it would go pretty much anywhere in the snow, even the steep alley along my building up to the driveway.

The Altima I drive now is FWD, but the previous owners put snow tires all the way around. That's a big help, with braking if nothing else. Also helps that it's an older one, so not as overpowered and more manageable. It also makes it up the alley.

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davester

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space-time
in my experience, snow tires are just as important, if not even more important that AWD.

That's kind of a duh! It's pointless to have an AWD vehicle without snow tires. I can assure you that an AWD vehicle with snow tires will get you many more places more safely than a 2WD vehicle with snow tires.

yet you wouldn't believe how many AWD drivers have all season tires.

But an AWD with all Seasons is better than a 2WD with all seasons. It is all about what you need it to do. I had All Seasons on my Forester till the factory set wore out. Then I switched to these: [www.tirerack.com]

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C(-)ris
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davester

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space-time
in my experience, snow tires are just as important, if not even more important that AWD.

That's kind of a duh! It's pointless to have an AWD vehicle without snow tires. I can assure you that an AWD vehicle with snow tires will get you many more places more safely than a 2WD vehicle with snow tires.

yet you wouldn't believe how many AWD drivers have all season tires.

Actually, I should have said that it's pointless to have an AWD vehicle in the snow without snow tires. They can be useful in other limited traction conditions (e.g. loose sand, etc) without snow tires.

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"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

Cars with all season (M+S) tires on AWD/4WD vehicles are allowed in every place that cars with chains on one axle can go.

I wouldn't buy a large SUV before deciding on a house/apartment. It's a little frustrating having a vehicle that won't fit in your garage.

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In tha 360. MRF User Map

In upstate NY, most of the vehicles I saw sitting in a snowy ditch were SUV's. Over-confidence of the drivers and high momentum seemed to play a role. I did fine with my front wheel drive VW Jetta equipped with Blizzaks. My wife did even better in her Blizzak-equipped 2004 Honda Civic.

Subaru Outback is a good vehicle - multiple friends said it handles more like a car than an SUV (in a good way), and it has AWD. Equip it with snow tires and drive carefully, and you should be OK in winter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2017 07:59PM by S. Pupp.

1. The smallest thing you can fit your kid, wife and associated gear into
2. The smallest thing you can fit your bike into
3. The smallest thing you can fit bike, gear, wife and kid into

(note emphasis on bike)

Honda Fit has great stowage, as does HR-V and both are FWD and probably light enough to get around pretty well in snow. Honda and Toyota are pretty legendary in used car durability/longevity. Also, I'd suspect Madison has excellent snow removal capability so that may negate some of the need for a "must have AWD" attitude.

Plus consider global warming. It's been 50+ here in KC for most of the damn winter. Been on my bike a lot but normal this aint and it has me concerned for all of us. When I was a kid it was cold and snowy 95% of the winter. I've shoveled once this year...and didn't really need to.

Those Subie Crosstreks are also pretty cool for all this stuff and standard AWD if it's a mandatory.

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S. Pupp
Subaru Outback is a good vehicle - multiple friends said it handles more like a car than an SUV (in a good way)

That's because it is a station wagon, not an SUV.

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It is what it is.

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SteveO
Honda Fit has great stowage, as does HR-V and both are FWD and probably light enough to get around pretty well in snow.

A car that is too light can be a liability in the snow.

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SteveO
I'd suspect Madison has excellent snow removal capability so that may negate some of the need for a "must have AWD" attitude.

I guess you missed the post above from the Wisconsin resident who said he would never consider the purchase of a non-AWD vehicle.

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SteveO
Those Subie Crosstreks are also pretty cool for all this stuff and standard AWD if it's a mandatory.

Too small for the stated purpose. From the reviews I've read, it's also less refined than most of its competition. They do look cool, though.

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It is what it is.

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SteveO
Plus consider global warming. It's been 50+ here in KC for most of the damn winter. Been on my bike a lot but normal this aint and it has me concerned for all of us. When I was a kid it was cold and snowy 95% of the winter. I've shoveled once this year...and didn't really need to.

Sorry, but global warming may or may not have any effect on local weather patterns, and it may even have unexpected effects (i.e. harsher winters in some areas. It is also moving (temperature-rise-wise) at an incredibly slow rate when considering the regular temperature swings of a winter season.

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"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan

I'll submit that the Toyota Sienna version with AWD is fantastic in snow with all-season tires, and it hauls all manner of family stuff and outdoor gear wonderfully whilst affording the driver and riders great comfort.

It has one flaw: 17mpg, less in city driving. And maybe one other flaw: it is a minivan. But we long ago embraced the minivan form factor. A large number of friends with sexier-looking SUVs cannot drive six adults to a ski resort, six kids to the airport, a snow blower and a lawn mower to the in-law's, or haul plywood from Home Depot. I know this because they had to ask me to do this! And they paid for this service with bourbon!

Luxury cars exist because a large portion of the population chooses to define themselves in large part based on the cars they drive. Same reason people live in houses much larger than their needs. Fine for them, but I define myself by what I do, not what I own, and keeping a lid on car and home costs has allowed me and my family to do pretty much whatever the f else we want.

So our cars include a Big One (the Sienna), a Little One (a Mazda3 hatchback), and a Fun One (Miata), which is a girly car belonging to my wife which I only drive when it's dark out and people can't see how much fun I'm having in it. All purchased used and 2-3 years old, with 15-25k miles, and expected to be driven to about 115k miles before being replaced.

If you are going to work and play in the city then just about any car with bald tires will get you around.
If you plan on living out in the boonies and commuting and especially commuting when they recommend staying off the roads until they are clear in Winter then you will need 4wd/awd and good tires.
After that you need a car that will serve the function(s) that you will require of it. No sense buying a sedan if you are constantly going to be in need of a suv or minivan additionalfunctionality beyond transporting bodies that sit on seats.

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The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
[soundcloud.com]

What billb said! I live in a city similar to Madison. Flat and winter is different than hilly and winter. Madison is flat country. I have lived in Minnesota all my life and never owned anything but two wheel drive vehicles. Rear wheel drive meant occasionally getting stuck but I have never been stuck with front wheel drive. And I never use snow tires. Buy what you like and don't worry about winter because you'll hunker down on the few bad weather days. Save four wheel drive for your snowblower (like I did)!

Love our Chevy Volt!

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

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Speedy
What billb said! I live in a city similar to Madison. Flat and winter is different than hilly and winter. Madison is flat country. I have lived in Minnesota all my life and never owned anything but two wheel drive vehicles. Rear wheel drive meant occasionally getting stuck but I have never been stuck with front wheel drive. And I never use snow tires. Buy what you like and don't worry about winter because you'll hunker down on the few bad weather days. Save four wheel drive for your snowblower (like I did)!

Love our Chevy Volt!

It depends on what you do. When it snows here during the work day and plows go by there are ALWAYS a dozen people on the block behind the building who can't get their Civic/Volt/any low to the ground FWD car out of their street parking spot. They have to shovel out their car. I just drive right out. Again, it really depends on how and where you are going. If you park in a ramp and have a garage at home FWD is pretty safe except for a handful of days. You will either need to shovel your driveway or use a snow blower to get over the mound at the bottom from the plow though. The Vibe is too low to get over the snow plow mounds, but the Forester can drive right over them with ease. When you are rushing to get out the door in the morning and don't have time to shovel an AWD SUV is worth its weight in gold just for the convienece and peace of mind.

The number of coworkers who call in to be a few hours late because they can't get out every time it snows 6" is anoying to say the least.

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C(-)ris
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2017 08:34AM by C(-)ris.

Speedy,

I agree that Mattkime and wife should pick the vehicle they feel is most suitable for them. However, I definitely disagree about your comment about 4WD/AWD and your statement that says "hunker down on the few bad weather days". I've owned vehicles that have RWD, FWD, 4WD and AWD. I've dealt with snow in each vehicle. As long as I'm in an area that is subject to snow, I'll own a vehicle with 4WD or AWD. No doubt about it. 4WD/AWD make all the difference in snow.

That and while it's easy to say people can hunker down and on the bad weather day, in reality, many people don't have the luxury of doing it. Long Island recently had a short but nasty storm that shutdown the entire area for a day. The only reason my wife was able to stay home was because she used one of her personal days. If she was out of personal days and vacation time, she would have had no choice but get behind the wheel and drive 60+ minutes each way in the storm.

Robert

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Robert M
If she was out of personal days and vacation time, she would have had no choice but get behind the wheel and drive 60+ minutes each way in the storm.

No option to take unpaid time or go negative on that time balance, or a remote work policy? Harsh!

Gabester,

Nopes. I would never do this to my employees. If weather conditions dictate that it's unsafe to drive, then I make sure my employees know they can take the day off without penalties of any kind. No need to use vacation days or personal days or unpaid time or go negative. There is a time and place to have harsh policies and getting into the office when facing dangerous weather conditions is definitely not one of them.

Robert

How about a place that only needs one wheel drive....

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Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.

A cruiser bike with disc brakes, now I've seen it all.

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Bixby
A cruiser bike with disc brakes, now I've seen it all.

It also has an electric motor. [sdnews.com]

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In tha 360. MRF User Map

Small Station Wagon with AWD gets my vote. (our 2002 Legacy GT wagon is still going strong!)

Subaru: Outback/Legacy GT
Audi: A4/A6/Allroad
Volvo: 8 series V50/60/70

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Aloha, Ken


“I have developed significant attachments to several members even though I wouldn't recognize them if I sat next to one on a park bench. I'm often tempted when in an airport to walk around, hollering "The Løpe", to see if anyone other than the Homeland Security people will acknowledge me. ” - The Løpe

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion, or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us." Justice Robert Jackson

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jdc
How about a place that only needs one wheel drive....

Hermosa? Manhattan? Redondo, maybe?

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It is what it is.

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N-OS X-tasy!

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jdc
How about a place that only needs one wheel drive....

Hermosa? Manhattan? Redondo, maybe?

I was wondering the same thing but it can't be those because of that hill to the north. It looks a little like Palos Verdes but probably not.

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AllGold

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N-OS X-tasy!

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jdc
How about a place that only needs one wheel drive....

Hermosa? Manhattan? Redondo, maybe?

I was wondering the same thing but it can't be those because of that hill to the north. It looks a little like Palos Verdes but probably not.

The profile of that hill does indeed look like the Peninsula (source: am a resident of the Hill). I don't know whether there are any beaches in Long Beach that look like the one in the photo and that would provide that view of the Hill, though, and I'm pretty sure it's too close to be Huntington... not to mention that TI and the Queen Mary would likely be visible in the photo if it were taken at either one of those beaches.

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It is what it is.

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N-OS X-tasy!

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AllGold

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N-OS X-tasy!

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jdc
How about a place that only needs one wheel drive....

Hermosa? Manhattan? Redondo, maybe?

I was wondering the same thing but it can't be those because of that hill to the north. It looks a little like Palos Verdes but probably not.

The profile of that hill does indeed look like the Peninsula (source: am a resident of the Hill). I don't know whether there are any beaches in Long Beach that look like the one in the photo and that would provide that view of the Hill, though, and I'm pretty sure it's too close to be Huntington... not to mention that TI and the Queen Mary would likely be visible in the photo if it were taken at either one of those beaches.

I guess you missed my post. Mission Beach San Diego.

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In tha 360. MRF User Map