I'm being encouraged to cut one of my direct reports. I don't want to give up on someone. They have been unable to get work done on time, work with others and properly filter facts from fiction.

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Mavic, sometimes cutting out that one person makes it possible to keep everyone else. You have to look at the greater gains by making a cut. You didn't provide one reason to keep that person.

They have been unable to get work done on time, work with others and properly filter facts from fiction.

Maybe they're using you to keep them from getting fired. Sounds like they should have fired a long time ago. Why do you not want to give up on them?

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Disclaimer: This post is checked for correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Any attempts at humor are solely the responsibility of the author and bear no claim that any and all readers will approve or appreciate said attempt at humor.
My name is DP, and I approve this message.

"Show me the man and I’ll show you the crime."- Lavrentiy Beria

Yes, I've had to fire someone.

Prior to that, I also found myself in a position where I gave a couple people way too much rope, and their performances cost the whole team (as alluded to by markmedic).

Quote
DP
They have been unable to get work done on time, work with others and properly filter facts from fiction.

Maybe they're using you to keep them from getting fired. Sounds like they should have fired a long time ago. Why do you not want to give up on them?

They have potential, but I'm not seeing realization of that potential.

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I never had to fire one of my direct reports yet, but I did participate in some training and it is not just as straight-forward as it seems. They encouraged us to take notes, write a disciplinary letter, and after several warnings, discuss it with HR before eventually firing that person. Otherwise they can sue for improper termination or discrimination.

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markmedic
You didn't provide one reason to keep that person.

True dat....

oops - double post. See below.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2017 07:40PM by bik.

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M A V I C
They have potential, but I'm not seeing realization of that potential.

I've had that talk with people.

"This isn't a good fit and I'm afraid it's not getting better. We need someone who is at *this spot* in their career. I think you could get to *this spot* if you were in a different environment but, unfortunately, we just aren't able to provide that kind of nurturing environment for the amount of time it will take."

Edit: And Space-time's notes are important prior to the actual "goodbye" talk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2017 07:39PM by bik.

This is how it's done.

[www.youtube.com]

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Mr. Lahey: A lot of people, don’t know how to drink. They drink against the grain of the liquor. And when you drink against the grain of the liquor? You lose.

Randy: What the @#$%& are you talking about?

Yes. It was easy. The guy lied about why he didn't show up for work, twice, I warned him the first time and I fired him the second time in a heart beat. As is said, the lie is often worse than the offense.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

[www.youtube.com]

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I'm reminded of Arnold's response in True Lies when his character's daughter asked him not quite the same question.

"Yes, but they were all bad."


Or maybe it was his character's wife doing the asking.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2017 08:02PM by TheTominator.

For me, the tipping point is if someone lacks a work ethic. I would spend lots of time to help direct reports develop their skills, but if someone is just lazy I had no patience.

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Yes I have. It bothers me to do so. That said I also realized years ago that if somebody is bothering you that much, giving you neck/shoulder pain, affecting your mood, etc. It is best to get rid of them. The rest of the team will have better moral, your health will be better, and your mood lightens.
Just don't demoralize him/her, as he/she is a person too.

Dave

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Welcome to Dave's BBQ!

Many have eaten here....

Few have died

Yes. If someone is unable to change, after 2-3 good, solid efforts to help them do the right thing, you do them no favor by letting them keep on working.

I fired someone, one time. It sucks. And. sometimes, it's necessary.

The couple of times I've been fired its been for the better.

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To answer M A V I C's question: I once fired my boss's wife after only three months after I joined the company. I celebrated my ten year anniversary with the company last month... so I must be doing something right.

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It is what it is.

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N-OS X-tasy!
To answer M A V I C's question: I once fired my boss's wife after only three months after I joined the company. I celebrated my ten year anniversary with the company last month... so I must be doing something right.

very unusual case. So her husband was your boss when you fired her? In other words, she was an indirect report to her husband?

our company has very strict policy against cases like these. They do encourage family members to apply, but they go to extreme lengths to ensure there is no direct or indirect report.

A couple of times. The first one, I later felt like i didn't do it properly and give the individual another chance, and it has bothered me since. I learned from that and the other 2 or 3 don't bother me at all.

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And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once.
—Friedrich Nietzsche
Western Massachusetts

I have wished I could have fired a couple of my directors for lack of work effort (meaning I had to do it).

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Hurts like a bastid...

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space-time
I never had to fire one of my direct reports yet, but I did participate in some training and it is not just as straight-forward as it seems. They encouraged us to take notes, write a disciplinary letter, and after several warnings, discuss it with HR before eventually firing that person. Otherwise they can sue for improper termination or discrimination.

Washington State is an at will employment state. Firing someone for poor work performance is VERY easy here.

I fired someone from my office, but was unsuccessful in my attempts to get this person fired from the company.

This person put two lives at risk on two separate occasions through sheer inattentiveness, despite multiple warnings to pay attention, then did my work in my name without my permission or knowledge, incorrectly, and with adverse consequences to an innocent third party. Due to this person's charisma, I was told by the person's supervisor "well, there must have been faults on both sides," as a reason to keep this person performing the same position elsewhere in the company.

I should have fired this person from my office six months sooner. My blood pressure would have thanked me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2017 11:54PM by S. Pupp.

Couple of times. One guy pulled the race card on me. It felt like a cheap shot. I'd given him warnings, but he couldn't pull it together. Luckily, I had a large number of minorities under me.

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Have they been told that there work is deficient? Has an improvement plan with goals been put into place?

If those things have been done, and they have not responded in a reasonable length of time, then you are justified.

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“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

Let me provide one very true fact:

You cannot motivate anybody, that doesn't want to be motivated. As long as you have done everything you can; provide the training, proper tools, professional work environment, what more can you do?
I assume you have counseled, repeatedly tried to retrain the appropriate results, and properly documented YOUR efforts, including warnings about HIS performance, you have made every effort. Now you are just carrying him and paying him for unacceptable performance.

If you don't terminate, YOU are letting the rest of your team down. And they won't put up with it forever.

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Bill
Flagler Beach, FL 32136

Carpe Vino!

Fermentation may have been a greater discovery than fire.
— David Rains Wallace

I have, on a few occasions. Being without a job can be a damn tough row to hoe, but, in the end, may not be the worst thing in the world.

There are undoubtably deal breaker level problems from your description. Taking a step back can help.

Have you made the problems clear to them (Trying to be nice, fear of confrontation -- this actually gets missed sometimes)?

Have you made a reasonable attempt to give them as much help as is fair to them while not hobbling the business or other coworkers?

Batman, your work may be done.

And don't forget to flip the script. Scrambling to deal with time pressure, not getting along with coworkers, not sure what to believe or not believe, and just waiting for the hammer to come down on them. Any even half decent employee is going to be miserable dragging themselves into work every day to face that.

Letting someone go can be the best thing you can do in a bad situation. It can get someone one stuck on the wrong track on the right path, or at least a better one. The next job they get could be the best job they ever have.

I've sure seen a whole bunch of people who need firing! Especially at VA hospitals I go to... unbelievable what they get away with. Governement health care, yep, I know how it works (or doesn't).

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That old man - he don't think like no old man...
Now I wouldn't want to be within 400 - 500 yards of one of them nuclear bombs when it goes off! WW1 Vet Old Man
"He's pinned under an outcropping of rock. Lucky for him, the rock kept the dirt from burying him alive."
If idiots could fly, this place would be an airport. And I'd be a TSA agent.
A bonified member of The Mystic Knights of The Sea, George P. Stevens, President. Andy Brown, Treasurer, Algonquin J. Calhoun, Legal Consultant.

Yep, several times. Recommended it even more often.

I said, more or less, "we're not going to continue your contract. We've given you chances, but now the decision has been made." Then you often have to listen to them give reasons, to which you respond, "you will need to see HR" or "there is a formal review process and here is the contact person."

The worst have been in academics, where losing a tenure-track job is often career death: people with a 5-year old Ph.D. are not likely to attract other offers. On the other hand, the process for doing so is very clear and if you follow the process (or employee handbook) to the letter, the fired employee has little recourse.

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M A V I C
I'm being encouraged to cut one of my direct reports. I don't want to give up on someone. They have been unable to get work done on time, work with others and properly filter facts from fiction.

I have multiple times. I find that the morale for the whole group tends to be better after letting the 'late' person go. You probably are not hearing the dis-satisfaction of all the other people in the department. I usually give folks the option of resigning...thus, I can say things like, 'they resigned' instead od being fire.d

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All I ever really needed to know, I learned from watching Star Trek.

If a employee wanted to resign, I always pointed out that doing so would cost them both unemployment and the severance package (which at my company could be anywhere from 3 weeks to 40 weeks depending on employment length). It seldom changed their mind.

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“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2017 02:21PM by Ombligo.

......as your friend.......??

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_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!

If you, as a supervisor/manager, have done your job correctly their termination should not come as a surprise to anyone. You coach them, give them goals, give them consequences and warnings. All documented. Verbal warnings are documented as well. Then written warnings. Lastly, the talk. Go in hoping for them to turn it around but know that it isn't likely.

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**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#

I'm really thankful for all of your responses. To a large extent, I felt like if I fired them I was doing something mean. I also tend to feel like I have it in me to fix the situation, even if I don't or 99.9% of people couldn't.

I did start keeping a log of interactions. For example: date/time, problem encountered, how it was measured, how the person responded to it.

I picked a few responses that really resonated with me. There's a lot I want to say, but I'll keep it simple since this is a public forum.

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bik
I've had that talk with people.

"This isn't a good fit and I'm afraid it's not getting better. We need someone who is at *this spot* in their career. I think you could get to *this spot* if you were in a different environment but, unfortunately, we just aren't able to provide that kind of nurturing environment for the amount of time it will take."

Edit: And Space-time's notes are important prior to the actual "goodbye" talk.

This really rings true for us. That said, I have spent a significant amount of time trying to teach them and I've offered to pay for training courses. They've chosen both not to take my advice and to not take the courses.

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Yoyodyne ArtWorks
For me, the tipping point is if someone lacks a work ethic. I would spend lots of time to help direct reports develop their skills, but if someone is just lazy I had no patience.

I don't think this person is lazy, but they choose to spend a lot of time in areas that do not produce customer value. And it turns out they're not that proficient in the areas that do provide value.

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blooz
A couple of times. The first one, I later felt like i didn't do it properly and give the individual another chance, and it has bothered me since. I learned from that and the other 2 or 3 don't bother me at all.

In situations like that, I imagine you made the best decision you could at the time. For me, I have wanted to make extra sure that I was giving them the extra chance.

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Ombligo
Have they been told that there work is deficient? Has an improvement plan with goals been put into place?

Yes, they're aware. A specific plan has not been put in place, but I have reviewed a formal one and after reading a bunch of these responses the other night, contacted HR to get a formal one in place. It would give them more chances, even though it's probably justified at this point anyway.

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WHiiP
Let me provide one very true fact:

You cannot motivate anybody, that doesn't want to be motivated. As long as you have done everything you can; provide the training, proper tools, professional work environment, what more can you do?
I assume you have counseled, repeatedly tried to retrain the appropriate results, and properly documented YOUR efforts, including warnings about HIS performance, you have made every effort. Now you are just carrying him and paying him for unacceptable performance.

If you don't terminate, YOU are letting the rest of your team down. And they won't put up with it forever.

Retraining is a bit tough in this role. They are supposed to know what they're doing. Even one of our more junior team members is doing a better job. I don't expect them to be perfect, but there's fundamentals they're just not proficient at. And when offered help, they don't take it.

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Blankity Blank
Have you made the problems clear to them (Trying to be nice, fear of confrontation -- this actually gets missed sometimes)?

Yes. Very clear. Repeatedly.

Quote

Have you made a reasonable attempt to give them as much help as is fair to them while not hobbling the business or other coworkers?

No. I've helped them too much and even had a coworker help them out. If it wasn't for other people stepping up and going above and beyond, it would have had a negative impact on business.

Quote

And don't forget to flip the script. Scrambling to deal with time pressure, not getting along with coworkers, not sure what to believe or not believe, and just waiting for the hammer to come down on them. Any even half decent employee is going to be miserable dragging themselves into work every day to face that.

I took them aside and had them work directly with me for an extended period of time. This was to help coach them and avoid conflict with others. There were check-ins over weeks about timing - very low pressure, but it still came down to the last few days and things didn't get done.

Quote
wowzer
I have multiple times. I find that the morale for the whole group tends to be better after letting the 'late' person go. You probably are not hearing the dis-satisfaction of all the other people in the department. I usually give folks the option of resigning...thus, I can say things like, 'they resigned' instead od being fire.d

Another reminder that I've let this go on too long. I have been hearing the dis-satisfaction.

Quote
ztirffritz
If you, as a supervisor/manager, have done your job correctly their termination should not come as a surprise to anyone. You coach them, give them goals, give them consequences and warnings. All documented. Verbal warnings are documented as well. Then written warnings. Lastly, the talk. Go in hoping for them to turn it around but know that it isn't likely.

Yeah, my manager mentioned that it shouldn't be a surprise either. And I know it wouldn't be.

Thanks again to everyone. I'll post an update in a few weeks.

---

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