In rgG's thread about her new Kia Soul, Harooneneutics mentions the need for a backup camera ude to bad sight lines. That brings to mind how so many SUV-type cars, especially small wannabe ones, have these tiny-a$$ side and back windows. Seems to me it only makes for poor side and rear visibility. I don't see any benefit. Can somebody tell me why designers or marketing people think that's a good thing?

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I believe it primarily has to do with meeting modern safety/crash standards. So sadly, we're unlikely to ever see the days of good rear visibility ever again....

Yes, it would be nice while regulatory agency testing of C and D pillar strength, a litttle testing of sight lines would be commendable, especially for those of us who actually bother to look for pedestrians while backing out of a parking space or actually checking side and rear sight lines and rear view mirrors before making lane changes instead of depending on other people to react.Hopefully by moving instead of just laying on the horn.

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The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2018 10:03AM by billb.

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Gareth
I believe it primarily has to do with meeting modern safety/crash standards. So sadly, we're unlikely to ever see the days of good rear visibility ever again....

Subaru cars offer excellent visibility while consistently earning top level safety scores.

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It is what it is.

The sight lines on the new Soul are not bad, but they are definitely not as good as the xB. The xB had the best all around visibility of any car I have had. My daughter used my xB to take her driving test for that very reason. Backing that car us was a breeze compared to any other car. The Soul does seem more solid than the xB and it gets and overall 5 star crash rating, so I guess the trade off is probably worth it.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

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Gareth
I believe it primarily has to do with meeting modern safety/crash standards. So sadly, we're unlikely to ever see the days of good rear visibility ever again....

For a second there, I thought this was Garth replying...I fully expected to see a reference to

Now would someone please explain how i's in any way safe when the car has insignificant tiny side-mirrors and a giant bar (spoiler) across the tiny rear windshield that effectively makes it impossible to see anything other than vague shadows through the back?

(Toyota Prius.)

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rgG
The sight lines on the new Soul are not bad, but they are definitely not as good as the xB. The xB had the best all around visibility of any car I have had...

...Once you took those annoying head-rests off of the back seats.

(Two-time xB owner.)

It'd have been sooo nice if Toyota had just kept their promise and offered all-wheel-drive upgrade on the xB. My only problem with that car was the way it handled in snow.

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In fact it’s much more the result of a styling “trend” that’s been underway for about the last 15 or more years.

It looks cool!

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Sarcany
Now would someone please explain how i's in any way safe when the car has insignificant tiny side-mirrors and a giant bar (spoiler) across the tiny rear windshield that effectively makes it impossible to see anything other than vague shadows through the back?

(Toyota Prius.)

Truth.

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N-OS X-tasy!

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Gareth
I believe it primarily has to do with meeting modern safety/crash standards. So sadly, we're unlikely to ever see the days of good rear visibility ever again....

Subaru cars offer excellent visibility while consistently earning top level safety scores.

But compare their modern cars to 2000-era models and the D pillars are 2-3, maybe 4 times as big. So they've done a good job of designing their modern cars with these safety standards, but visibility still isn't as good as the older models.

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Sarcany
Now would someone please explain how i's in any way safe when the car has insignificant tiny side-mirrors and a giant bar (spoiler) across the tiny rear windshield that effectively makes it impossible to see anything other than vague shadows through the back?

(Toyota Prius.)

ABSOLUTELY !!!!!!!!!!!!

Ever see a Lexus 200h? It their Toyota Prius version? Different hatch and the air defector is on the roof. Same engineers, different solution.

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N-OS X-tasy!

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Gareth
I believe it primarily has to do with meeting modern safety/crash standards. So sadly, we're unlikely to ever see the days of good rear visibility ever again....

Subaru cars offer excellent visibility while consistently earning top level safety scores.

I'll ditto this.

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Sarcany

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rgG
The sight lines on the new Soul are not bad, but they are definitely not as good as the xB. The xB had the best all around visibility of any car I have had...

...Once you took those annoying head-rests off of the back seats.

(Two-time xB owner.)

You mean the ones that were usually found stowed under the back of the front seats.

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Roswell, GA (Atlanta suburb)

As much as I love my Mazda3, its a cave inside. When I drive my wife PT Cruiser, I feel like its practically a convertible with all that glass, so there is a huge difference. My MPV was also a greenhouse. Both those cars were designed in the Late 90s. My Dad had a 2005 Ford 500, lots of glass on that one as well, so I think this started in the after 2005 or so.

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

all this is irrelevant. Self driving cars are just a few years away.

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space-time
all this is irrelevant. Self driving cars are just a few years away.

Yes, and magically, in the blink of an eye, EVERY vehicle will suddenly, and for free, be replaced with a self driving car.

If this trend gets worse, and with the emergence of self-driving cars, there won't be any need for windows at all. Wouldn't that be weird.

We have a 91 Camry which admittedly would fare poorly in just about any kind of crash, but has great visibility all around.

Seems like the small window thing hasn't caught on in minivan designs as much.

The marketing aspect of small windows makes me think of 1930s era huge luxury cars that had tiny back windows, presumably for privacy, but smacking of snobbery, IMO.

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50s small window Beatle

In fact it’s much more the result of a styling “trend” that’s been underway for about the last 15 or more years.

This.

And there's no need to "trend" trend. It's a thing, unfortunately. Nothing new, either.




Now, I'm all for cool looks, but they have to be graceful blend of style and safety. Tiny windows need to be offset by cameras. Narrow side mirrors are just wrong.

---

I am that Masked Man.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

Quote
RAMd®d
Now, I'm all for cool looks, but they have to be graceful blend of style and safety. Tiny windows need to be offset by cameras. Narrow side mirrors are just wrong.

I'm a big fan of that "basket handle" styling. On the 70's Ford T-Bird and Fairmont Coupes as well. I'd to see that come back!

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

I'm a big fan of that "basket handle" styling.

My favorite was the '55-'56 Ford Crown Vic and Sunliner models.

---

I am that Masked Man.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

I like unrestricted view

---

The Phorum Wall keeps us safe from illegal characters and words
The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is the knowledge of one's own ignorance. -Benjamin Franklin
BOYCOTT YOPLAIT [www.noyoplait.com]
[soundcloud.com]

Quote
lost in space
1930s era huge luxury cars that had tiny back windows, presumably for privacy, but smacking of snobbery, IMO.

I thought those were SUVs starting with the Model T right up until WWII when real cars got lower, longer and wider. The taller, narrower and shorter SUVs made a come-back beginning in the '80's through to the current period when shorter, fatter, squatter humans could no longer get into the driver's seat of real cars.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2018 02:55PM by Speedy.

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RAMd®d
...

This car is perfect for those coupled who want different climate settings.

EDIT: also great for those couples where one spouse talks way too much



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2018 02:57PM by space-time.

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Gareth

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N-OS X-tasy!

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Gareth
I believe it primarily has to do with meeting modern safety/crash standards. So sadly, we're unlikely to ever see the days of good rear visibility ever again....

Subaru cars offer excellent visibility while consistently earning top level safety scores.

But compare their modern cars to 2000-era models and the D pillars are 2-3, maybe 4 times as big. So they've done a good job of designing their modern cars with these safety standards, but visibility still isn't as good as the older models.

You commented that most modern cars do not offer good rear visibility — I provided an example of an automaker that does. Reviewers of Subaru cars consistently comment about how outward visibility is top-notch.

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It is what it is.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2018 04:23PM by N-OS X-tasy!.

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N-OS X-tasy!
You commented that most modern cars do not offer good rear visibility — I provided an example of an automaker that does. Reviewers of Subaru cars consistently comment about how outward visibility is top-notch.

Even Subies are not immune to "shrinking window syndrome" The Legacy was a handsome, clean wagon, the newer one is bulked up "SUV"

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Quote
billb
I like unrestricted view

Some exhaust on that one....

Lost,

Poor visibility is one of the key reasons I immediately dismissed the Honda CR-V when looking at compact SUVs in '09. Same goes for the Nissan Murano. Horrendously bad in both vehicles. Not sure if the situation has improved with the newer versions of the CR-V.

Robert

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space-time

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RAMd®d
...

This car is perfect for those coupled who want different climate settings.

EDIT: also great for those couples where one spouse talks way too much

Or wants to tell you how to drive.

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Rolando

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N-OS X-tasy!
You commented that most modern cars do not offer good rear visibility — I provided an example of an automaker that does. Reviewers of Subaru cars consistently comment about how outward visibility is top-notch.

Even Subies are not immune to "shrinking window syndrome" The Legacy was a handsome, clean wagon, the newer one is bulked up "SUV"

My comment did not address whether windows on Subarus are smaller than they were in the past - my comment rebutted the statement that most modern cars offer poor rearward/outward visibility. Is that not clear?

BTW, the first three cars listed on Consumer Reports' "Cars With Best Visibility" are the Subaru Forester, Subaru Outback and Subaru Legacy:

[www.consumerreports.org]

From the blurb for the Forester: "Big windows, a square greenhouse, and thin roof pillars bring outstanding visibility, surrounding you with glass."

From the blurb for the Outback: "Like the Forester, the Outback's upright greenhouse, big windows, and thin pillars all combine to optimize visibility, making it easy to see out the back and minimizing blind spots."

From the blurb for the Legacy: "Maybe the Legacy lacks the sleek styling of a Chrysler 200 or Chevrolet Malibu. But its upright greenhouse, big windows, and thin pillars combine to provide the best visibility of any midsized sedan."

P.S. I can personally vouch for the poor visibility on the Infiniti QX70, as noted on the "Worst Visibility" list on that same page.

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It is what it is.

Quote

My comment did not address whether windows on Subarus are smaller than they were in the past - my comment rebutted the statement that most modern cars offer poor rearward/outward visibility. Is that not clear?

Well, if you're gonna be that pedantic, you definitely did not rebut the statement "that most modern cars offer poor rearward/outward visibility." by offering 3 examples, since "most" means more than 50%....

The trend is shrinking windows, without a doubt. I don't like it, but it is a fact.

---

San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2018 12:58AM by Rolando.

Quote
Rolando

Quote
RAMd®d
Now, I'm all for cool looks, but they have to be graceful blend of style and safety. Tiny windows need to be offset by cameras. Narrow side mirrors are just wrong.

I'm a big fan of that "basket handle" styling. On the 70's Ford T-Bird and Fairmont Coupes as well. I'd to see that come back!

The '77-'79 Thunderbirds have a small window within the "basket handle" for a reason- I drove a Fairmont Futura for several years and you don't realize how often in traffic you need to look exactly where the passenger side portion of the "basket handle" is until that area (from about 3:00 to 4:00 o'clock in fighter pilot terms) is blocked off by sheetmetal.

---

WARNING- If I posted a link in the above message, assume it is at minimum "NSFW- Language". Occasionally you'll be wrong.

Lie to me if you must, but don't lie to me and insult my intelligence in the same sentence.

Resist the Thought Police: George Orwell's book 1984 was meant as a warning, not an instruction manual.

"Political correctness is just intellectual colonialism and psychological fascism for the creation of thought crime" - Steve Hughes

What's my "Super Power"? I can make active threads go stone-dead with a single post. I try to use this power only for good and not for evil but, you know... stuff happens.

Another thing. Those high back windows. Is that for structural safety? Especially bad for rear visibility on big vehicles unless there's a camera. I read a few years ago where if you were looking out the back window you wouldn't be able to see a 4 year old child who was less than 20 feet away.

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lost in space
Another thing. Those high back windows. Is that for structural safety?

I truly doubt it. A modern car is cage around the passenger compartment, covered in sheet metal and glass. I guess the location of the cage members define where the metal ends and glass begins. Thats why modern "A" pillars are so thick now. The engine compartment (and trunk, if any) is basically a crush zone, lots of cars will drop the engine to the ground to avoid it being driven into the passenger compartment.

Here's a video of a 1920's Dodge rolling over. Probably ok a low speeds, but much deadlier at modern highway speeds.

[youtu.be]

Pretty much ALL cars were SUVs until the 1930s!

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Another thing. Those high back windows.

Another thing.

Over the last few years I've seen cars designed with a factory rake— the rear of the car a little higher than the front.

This used to be common when owners stuck big tires on the back (as opposed to the '44 Mercury 'power rake').

Combine the rake with just about any size or shape of rear window and you see a lot less. I really like the idea of a backup camera. A friend's Chevy avalanche has the display in a portion of the rearview mirror. The only reason I'd have Nav unit might be if it doubled as a display for a backup camera.

---

I am that Masked Man.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

I don't buy the 'small windows due to structural integrity' argument.



Enough said.

I took my driver's test in my parent's manual transmission 1974 Volvo 240. Those Volvos had an awesome look-around.