I'm back on the board of directors at the cab co where I own a few cabs, and I'm trying to assess the impact of raising our waiting time from $30/hr to $40/hr. I can't remember how to calculate the mph at which the meter switches from waiting time to the mileage rate, assuming that I ever could. The mileage rate is $2.60/mile.

In other words, the meter is programmed to charge whichever is the higher amount - either time or distance. If you are not moving it currently clicks off in 20 cent increments at the rate of $30/hr, or 0.50/min. At $40/hr it would be 0.67/min. So, at what mph would $2.60/mile be more than 0.50/min, or 0.67/min?

Pleas show your work so I can learn something

This has become more and more relevant as traffic slows from this really sucks to major clusterf**k.

My guesstimate is that it is currently around 24ish/mph and would increase to 32ish/mph. Am I even in the ballpark?

Don't ask me to show my work.

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back of the envelope calculation: if you drive 10 miles per hour, that would be $26, still less than your desired rate of $30 or $40

so here is the math:

$40h/$2.60=15.38 mph

below that, charge the $40/h

above that, charge the $2.60/mile

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bazookaman

I already knew that, duh, but thanks.

But you HAVE to make sure you don't double dip. I've been in cabs in congested environments where they clearly charge for time AND distance. If you take space's 15 mile drive in about an hour, w/ imperfectly timed stops, starts, waits, you're likely to get hit w/ a $71.20 meter for a $40 ride... Whereas if you take that same ride in about 52 minutes minutes with perfectly timed, albeit slow traffic, you get a $40 meter.

Here in LA they've flat rated the most popular area to area routes, to avoid the backlash from "magic metering". Not to rain on anybody's parade, but in this day and age, with all the available traffic apps, it oughta be dead-bang easy to identify travel time and mieage up front, and get an accurate rate based on time vs. mileage. If the trip is off by more than an couple of minutes one way or the other, the fare can be adjusted accordingly in whichever favor the trip falls.

Fare oughta be fair.
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Buzz
But you HAVE to make sure you don't double dip. I've been in cabs in congested environments where they clearly charge for time AND distance. If you take space's 15 mile drive in about an hour, w/ imperfectly timed stops, starts, waits, you're likely to get hit w/ a $71.20 meter for a $40 ride... Whereas if you take that same ride in about 52 minutes minutes with perfectly timed, albeit slow traffic, you get a $40 meter.

Here in LA they've flat rated the most popular area to area routes, to avoid the backlash from "magic metering". Not to rain on anybody's parade, but in this day and age, with all the available traffic apps, it oughta be dead-bang easy to identify travel time and mieage up front, and get an accurate rate based on time vs. mileage. If the trip is off by more than an couple of minutes one way or the other, the fare can be adjusted accordingly in whichever favor the trip falls.

Fare oughta be fair.
==

We get a lot of fares that are nothing like what you've imagined, like for example, people going to the weed store and making you wait while they smell 23 different kinds of bud, then go on to the liquor store, which may not not be busy, then hit the drive-thru at Popeyes ("Please don't eat that crap in my cab, thank you"). Having a reasonable waiting time rate is a much milder version of Uber's surge pricing piracy.

> Uber's surge pricing piracy

I think we disagree on this as an owner vs. a user. A cab owner considers surge pricing a penalty to a potential rider in his cab, which has fixed pricing. But that cab is probably on the road, regardless of demand.

However, the surge pricing is what increases car supply and gets the passenger into a car rather than standing on the side of the road hoping some capacity happens to roll by during high demand. Take it or leave it, passenger.

the Uber vs traditional cab debate will not end anytime soon. What I don't always like about uber/lyft is that some of these cars are pretty crappy. One had bad rear brakes (you could hear the sound of metal on metal when he braked), the other had a bad exhaust system, things were rattling under the car and the guy on driving with the low fuel light on, luckily we made it to the airport.

The traditional cabs are probably inspected on a more regular basis.

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We get a lot of fares that are nothing like what you've imagined, like for example, people going to the weed store and making you wait while they smell 23 different kinds of bud, then go on to the liquor store, which may not not be busy, then hit the drive-thru at Popeyes ("Please don't eat that crap in my cab, thank you").

Just...wow. You should probably just put the business aside for your own sanity.

---

“There comes a point where we need to stop just pulling people out of the river. We need to go upstream and find out why they’re falling in."

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space-time
What I don't always like about uber/lyft is that some of these cars are pretty crappy.

I once saw an uber/lyft that had TWO donuts on (didn't look on the other side to see if there were more...). And I thought, wow, that takes some effort. I mean, you gotta go find the 2nd donut, and is that really easier than fixing/replacing the first tire? And then I wonder about the whole economics of being an uber/lyft driver when I see something like this.

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Gareth

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space-time
What I don't always like about uber/lyft is that some of these cars are pretty crappy.

I once saw an uber/lyft that had TWO donuts on (didn't look on the other side to see if there were more...). And I thought, wow, that takes some effort. I mean, you gotta go find the 2nd donut, and is that really easier than fixing/replacing the first tire? And then I wonder about the whole economics of being an uber/lyft driver when I see something like this.

They were using donuts to reduce rolling resistance, thus increasing fuel economy and profits.

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Wags

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Buzz
Fare oughta be fair.
==

We get a lot of fares that are nothing like what you've imagined, like for example, people going to the weed store and making you wait while they smell 23 different kinds of bud, then go on to the liquor store, which may not not be busy, then hit the drive-thru at Popeyes ("Please don't eat that crap in my cab, thank you"). Having a reasonable waiting time rate is a much milder version of Uber's surge pricing piracy.

Not sure what your area is like, and appreciate your wanting to keep your vehicles clean. Uber's surge pricing is supply and demand 101, but it kinda sucks because you're at the mercy of where the vehicles are versus where the riders are. Around here, that can be less than a couple of miles.

We have some nasty traffic problems, and w/ cabs' metering distances getting lower and lower as rates go up, the time versus mileage paradigm gets lost, and double dipping gets more and more pervasive, because it's too easy for the time versus mileage lines to get blurred (and they do; in favor of the meter). Stopping at the weed shop is a non-traffic related stop, the wait meter oughta run. Stop and go on the freeway while getting past an accident is part of getting from point A to point B, and when the traffic clears after the accident, the cab hauls ass and the average speed for the ride is 38mph, it's still better for the hack than a city ride w/ 30mph maximum speed limits.

That's why I'm saying there should be a fare pricing model that is fair. Maybe use 3 or 4 traffic apps, and average the travel times from them. The distances are gonna be pretty close. The "taxi" app can easily compare the time rate versus mileage rate, and spit out a fair fare before taxiing to the runway for takeoff. If there are unforeseen delays, then an adjustment should be made IF it causes the overall time of the ride to exceed whatever the minimum average speed rate's time would be for that ride.
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Buzz

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Wags

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Buzz
Fare oughta be fair.
==

We get a lot of fares that are nothing like what you've imagined, like for example, people going to the weed store and making you wait while they smell 23 different kinds of bud, then go on to the liquor store, which may not not be busy, then hit the drive-thru at Popeyes ("Please don't eat that crap in my cab, thank you"). Having a reasonable waiting time rate is a much milder version of Uber's surge pricing piracy.

Not sure what your area is like, and appreciate your wanting to keep your vehicles clean. Uber's surge pricing is supply and demand 101, but it kinda sucks because you're at the mercy of where the vehicles are versus where the riders are. Around here, that can be less than a couple of miles.

We have some nasty traffic problems, and w/ cabs' metering distances getting lower and lower as rates go up, the time versus mileage paradigm gets lost, and double dipping gets more and more pervasive, because it's too easy for the time versus mileage lines to get blurred (and they do; in favor of the meter). Stopping at the weed shop is a non-traffic related stop, the wait meter oughta run. Stop and go on the freeway while getting past an accident is part of getting from point A to point B, and when the traffic clears after the accident, the cab hauls ass and the average speed for the ride is 38mph, it's still better for the hack than a city ride w/ 30mph maximum speed limits.

That's why I'm saying there should be a fare pricing model that is fair. Maybe use 3 or 4 traffic apps, and average the travel times from them. The distances are gonna be pretty close. The "taxi" app can easily compare the time rate versus mileage rate, and spit out a fair fare before taxiing to the runway for takeoff. If there are unforeseen delays, then an adjustment should be made IF it causes the overall time of the ride to exceed whatever the minimum average speed rate's time would be for that ride.
==

Your concept of a fair pricing model is sort of nebulous, because the fare is choosing the destination as well as the time of day. If you pick a time and destination that necessitates poking along in traffic, well, that's on you. I will turn my timer off for a train or a bridge lift, but I don't have to. In those cases I will charge what it would normally cost then turn the meter off and go around the problem. A large number of our passengers are heavy users and we take that into consideration. Also, we have many accounts that we give flat rates to, such as the Red Cross, hospital deliveries, and some that are high volume, like the VA and the school system.

And, since Uber and clones are now in virtually every major market the chances that you will see what you think is fair pricing is no longer an option. When they come into a market they insist on total deregulation with regard to pricing and number of vehicles, as well as many other issues that you should be a lot more concerned about.

Their new strategy in Oregon is to get statewide regulations and taking all control away from the municipalities. Portland stands to lose hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees when that happens, and we'll liking see teenagers driving Ubers.

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space-time
The traditional cabs are probably inspected on a more regular basis.

I've been in more than one NYC yellow cab that had their Check Engine Light on.

If you pick a time and destination that necessitates poking along in traffic, well, that's on you. I will turn my timer off for a train or a bridge lift, but I don't have to. In those cases I will charge what it would normally cost then turn the meter off and go around the problem.

So are you charging by time, or mileage?
As noted, say there's a 10 mile taxi jaunt down the freeway w/ a couple of pile ups, that triggers your wait time, and then traffic clears to allow freeway+ speeds, and you get to the same destination sooner than your Siamese twin cab that takes the 25/30mph frontage road w/ a couple of unimpeded stop signs; but your freeway passenger gets hits with a higher fare.
Is that fare fair?
I'm saying "no", they should be the same.

Assume a $2.50 flag drop charge, the first hour's min mileage drops to:
$40.00 - $2.50 = $37.50
and
$37.50 / $2.60 = 14.42mph

A 14 mile ride around here can be anywhere from 15 minutes to almost 3 hours depending on day and time. The problem was, before mass flat-rating, the 16 minute ride was $40.00, and the 58 minute ride was $62.40, yet both exceeded the minimum MPH for the trip.

I'm saying, it's easy enough to track both time and distance, so as long as the total driving time doesn't exceed the allotted time for that distance, the fare should be based on distance. If the total driving time does exceed the allotted time for that distance, the fare should be based on time. Unfortunately, the meter mavens can't (or won't) figure this out. Stopping at the weed shop is definitely extra.

I think Uber/Lyft owe much of their success to their up front pricing model. While I don't agree w/ their overall business model, at least their pricing is mostly transparent for the actual rides.
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Buzz
If you pick a time and destination that necessitates poking along in traffic, well, that's on you. I will turn my timer off for a train or a bridge lift, but I don't have to. In those cases I will charge what it would normally cost then turn the meter off and go around the problem.

So are you charging by time, or mileage?
As noted, say there's a 10 mile taxi jaunt down the freeway w/ a couple of pile ups, that triggers your wait time, and then traffic clears to allow freeway+ speeds, and you get to the same destination sooner than your Siamese twin cab that takes the 25/30mph frontage road w/ a couple of unimpeded stop signs; but your freeway passenger gets hits with a higher fare.
Is that fare fair?
I'm saying "no", they should be the same.

Assume a $2.50 flag drop charge, the first hour's min mileage drops to:
$40.00 - $2.50 = $37.50
and
$37.50 / $2.60 = 14.42mph

A 14 mile ride around here can be anywhere from 15 minutes to almost 3 hours depending on day and time. The problem was, before mass flat-rating, the 16 minute ride was $40.00, and the 58 minute ride was $62.40, yet both exceeded the minimum MPH for the trip.

I'm saying, it's easy enough to track both time and distance, so as long as the total driving time doesn't exceed the allotted time for that distance, the fare should be based on distance. If the total driving time does exceed the allotted time for that distance, the fare should be based on time. Unfortunately, the meter mavens can't (or won't) figure this out. Stopping at the weed shop is definitely extra.

I think Uber/Lyft owe much of their success to their up front pricing model. While I don't agree w/ their overall business model, at least their pricing is mostly transparent for the actual rides.
==

Its both time and mileage, whichever is greater.

Uber owes the entirety of their success to the fact that they can lose $40 billion dollars and still be in business. Ain't capitalism grand?

Its both time and mileage, whichever is greater.

So when your freeway traveled cab is at Point B ringing up your $62.40 fare for my brother, and I pull up in your twin's cab a few seconds later, after leaving the same Point A, momentarily in front of yours, and I told your twin to take the frontage road, and my fare is $40.00; who took advantage of whose brother?
==

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Buzz
Its both time and mileage, whichever is greater.

So when your freeway traveled cab is at Point B ringing up your $62.40 fare for my brother, and I pull up in your twin's cab a few seconds later, after leaving the same Point A, momentarily in front of yours, and I told your twin to take the frontage road, and my fare is $40.00; who took advantage of whose brother?
==

The rates are the rates, just like the price is the price. Hard to argue with an imaginary scenario. The customer can request any route they want in my universe.

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Wags

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Buzz
Its both time and mileage, whichever is greater.

So when your freeway traveled cab is at Point B ringing up your $62.40 fare for my brother, and I pull up in your twin's cab a few seconds later, after leaving the same Point A, momentarily in front of yours, and I told your twin to take the frontage road, and my fare is $40.00; who took advantage of whose brother?
==

The rates are the rates, just like the price is the price. Hard to argue with an imaginary scenario. The customer can request any route they want in my universe.

You didn't directly answer the question, though it sounds as though you're content screwing over my brother because you made the choice to take the freeway. While imaginary here in MRF, these rides comport with our daily reality in LA. The "waiting" meter can uptick 20¢ every 18 seconds; do you hurry up to the red light to insure you get every possible 18 second uptick? Or do you slow down smoothly to minimize the 18 second upticks in city traffic? The freeway example was actually conservative, the real disparity could easily be greater IRL.

Your taxi model is stuck back in 1919, while the Uber/Lyft model is closer to 2019. We have GPS's, we have traffic apps. We can know the time and distance before the taxi departs; so why not use this info?

"Your concept of a fair pricing model is sort of nebulous, because the fare is choosing the destination as well as the time of day. If you pick a time and destination that necessitates poking along in traffic, well, that's on you."

That's 1919.

I said,
"...there should be a fare pricing model that is fair. Maybe use 3 or 4 traffic apps, and average the travel times from them. The distances are gonna be pretty close. The "taxi" app can easily compare the time rate versus mileage rate, and spit out a fair fare before taxiing to the runway for takeoff. If there are unforeseen delays, then an adjustment should be made IF it causes the overall time of the ride to exceed whatever the minimum average speed rate's time would be for that ride. "
and
"...it's easy enough to track both time and distance, so as long as the total driving time doesn't exceed the allotted time for that distance, the fare should be based on distance. If the total driving time does exceed the allotted time for that distance, the fare should be based on time. Unfortunately, the meter mavens can't (or won't) figure this out. Stopping at the weed shop is definitely extra."

That's 2019.

Again, I don't agree with Uber/Lyft's invasive business model, but their basic pricing metrics for non surge priced trips, is a more modern approach. What happens when a cab ordered for a 2:00 PM pickup doesn't show, and the patron is late for, or misses an important meeting, or their child's recital? Something akin to 1919?
==

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Buzz

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Wags

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Buzz
Its both time and mileage, whichever is greater.

So when your freeway traveled cab is at Point B ringing up your $62.40 fare for my brother, and I pull up in your twin's cab a few seconds later, after leaving the same Point A, momentarily in front of yours, and I told your twin to take the frontage road, and my fare is $40.00; who took advantage of whose brother?
==

The rates are the rates, just like the price is the price. Hard to argue with an imaginary scenario. The customer can request any route they want in my universe.

You didn't directly answer the question, though it sounds as though you're content screwing over my brother because you made the choice to take the freeway. While imaginary here in MRF, these rides comport with our daily reality in LA. The "waiting" meter can uptick 20¢ every 18 seconds; do you hurry up to the red light to insure you get every possible 18 second uptick? Or do you slow down smoothly to minimize the 18 second upticks in city traffic? The freeway example was actually conservative, the real disparity could easily be greater IRL.

Your taxi model is stuck back in 1919, while the Uber/Lyft model is closer to 2019. We have GPS's, we have traffic apps. We can know the time and distance before the taxi departs; so why not use this info?

"Your concept of a fair pricing model is sort of nebulous, because the fare is choosing the destination as well as the time of day. If you pick a time and destination that necessitates poking along in traffic, well, that's on you."

That's 1919.

I said,
"...there should be a fare pricing model that is fair. Maybe use 3 or 4 traffic apps, and average the travel times from them. The distances are gonna be pretty close. The "taxi" app can easily compare the time rate versus mileage rate, and spit out a fair fare before taxiing to the runway for takeoff. If there are unforeseen delays, then an adjustment should be made IF it causes the overall time of the ride to exceed whatever the minimum average speed rate's time would be for that ride. "
and
"...it's easy enough to track both time and distance, so as long as the total driving time doesn't exceed the allotted time for that distance, the fare should be based on distance. If the total driving time does exceed the allotted time for that distance, the fare should be based on time. Unfortunately, the meter mavens can't (or won't) figure this out. Stopping at the weed shop is definitely extra."

That's 2019.

Again, I don't agree with Uber/Lyft's invasive business model, but their basic pricing metrics for non surge priced trips, is a more modern approach. What happens when a cab ordered for a 2:00 PM pickup doesn't show, and the patron is late for, or misses an important meeting, or their child's recital? Something akin to 1919?
==

Sounds like you're intent on exploiting cheap labor. Hope AI and the "sharing economy" doesn't come for you some day. But it will.

Cabs are an on demand commodity. What you are looking for is a limo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2019 11:11AM by Wags.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2019 11:08AM by Wags.

Sounds like you're intent on exploiting cheap labor. Hope AI and the "sharing economy" doesn't come for you some day. But it will.

Cabs are an on demand commodity. What you are looking for is a limo.

You still didn't directly answer the question, though it sounds as though you're content screwing over my brother because you made the choice to take the freeway. And you didn't answer the "waiting" meter 20¢ every 18 seconds uptick query; do you hurry up to the red light to insure you get every possible 18 second uptick? Or do you slow down smoothly to minimize the 18 second upticks in city traffic?

You now say "Cabs are an on demand commodity..,", yet you previously decried Uber's demand pricing as being evil. You're talking out of too many orifices on some issues, while avoiding uttering a peep on others. I'm all for your entrepreneurial spirit, but I am not alone in decrying the deceptive metering practices that are too pervasive in many taxi markets nowadays. Again, taxi's got started way before traffic, GPS's, cellphones, traffic apps, etc., and the biz is rooted back in 100 year old society. Get with the times; don't use 1919's archaic business model to exploit 2019's passengers. Evolve the model to give every fare a fair fare.
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