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Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 24, 2019 11:02PM
OP here: [forums.macresource.com]

... so I did end up contacting the eBay seller as suggested by Bernie at the end of the thread, but the seller was as clueless as me, in terms of where the battery is. So I'm essentially back to square one.

Any of you all feel like taking the challenge? I will send you a machine (if I can find a reasonably cheap shipping method), and one of YOU figures this out. The first to do so, wins some sort of unofficial forum award ... or at the very least, bragging rights. smiling bouncing smiley

I almost feel as if we should sticky this thread, as was suggested in the OP.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2019 11:03PM by PeterB.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: mattkime
Date: July 24, 2019 11:23PM
Did you try contacting the company on the offhanded chance that they'll actually be helpful?



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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 24, 2019 11:25PM
Quote
mattkime
Did you try contacting the company on the offhanded chance that they'll actually be helpful?

The company was unhelpful as stated in the OP -- they refused service AND wouldn't give out a service manual, claiming it was proprietary.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: MikeF
Date: July 24, 2019 11:41PM
Can the "sample" unit be destroyed (never again usable) in the process?
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 24, 2019 11:42PM
Quote
MikeF
Can the "sample" unit be destroyed (never again usable) in the process?

It pretty much already is. grinning smiley




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: GGD
Date: July 24, 2019 11:51PM
Quote
PeterB
The first to do so, wins some sort of unofficial forum award ... or at the very least, bragging rights. smiling bouncing smiley

Or gets to start a battery replacement business.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: mattkime
Date: July 25, 2019 12:12AM
Is it possible to find others that also own this machine?



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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Carm
Date: July 25, 2019 01:26AM
So you do have a working one, but you don’t want to take it apart? Or you haven’t completely taken apart the one you currently have open?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2019 02:14AM by Carm.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Fritz
Date: July 25, 2019 06:21AM
did you try any of the refurbishers (still not an actual English word) I pointed to?



!#$@@$#!
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Bernie
Date: July 25, 2019 07:47AM
I am a bit behind on my honey dew list. Mom is taking more of my time too.
Got a PDF of owners manual? I don't even know what this back box is.




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 25, 2019 08:28AM
Got a PDF of owners manual?

I found one and it does mention the lithium battery, but all it says is that it needs to serviced. It does not mention the location or the model of the battery.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Bernie
Date: July 25, 2019 08:38AM
Quote
space-time
Got a PDF of owners manual?

I found one and it does mention the lithium battery, but all it says is that it needs to serviced. It does not mention the location or the model of the battery.

link?




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 25, 2019 09:14AM
To answer questions:

1) Others who own this machine -- they exist, but probably either traded up before the battery needed replacement, or went ahead and forked over the bucks to get the battery replaced. (More likely the former than the latter.)

2) Refurbishers -- as mentioned in the OP, one of them quoted me $350 to replace the battery, not including shipping. Kinda ridiculous because I can buy three new (used) machines -- admittedly machines that might need new batteries!-- for that price.

3) PDF here: [www.artisantg.com]

4) I've more or less completely taken apart one of them, that's the one I took the photos of. It was pretty much a parts / nonfunctioning unit anyway, so I was essentially using it as a roadmap to figure out where the battery is, so that I can replace the battery on the one that really needs it.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: modelamac
Date: July 25, 2019 10:26AM
All solid state chips and most capacitors will have a lead connected to ground, as will relays and some other components. Find that circuit line that is common to those components and follow it to one end or the other. That last component in line is the battery.

Some circuit boards have circuits on both sides, and that ground circuit may be on only one side. It won't be easy, but it can be done.



Ed (modelamac)

I think I will just put an OUT OF ORDER
sticker on my head and call it a day.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: July 25, 2019 10:35AM
I will volunteer to take it apart in the great battery search.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: MikeF
Date: July 25, 2019 10:40AM
Yeah, I could probably do it as well (retired with time on my hands usually). Figure out shipping to various people and go with the cheapest (I'm in Long Beach CA).
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Carm
Date: July 25, 2019 10:57AM
IIRC most batteries in machines that are used for backup are 3v, similar to computer CMOS batteries.
If the spot on the board with the + and - doesn’t have a battery on the back, I would solder a couple of pins there and connect a cmos battery to the pins.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: JoeH
Date: July 25, 2019 10:58AM
Quote
MikeF
Yeah, I could probably do it as well (retired with time on my hands usually). Figure out shipping to various people and go with the cheapest (I'm in Long Beach CA).

In another 6-12 months I will also be retired and would then be interested in taking apart the puzzle. Good luck with finding where they hid the battery!
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: July 25, 2019 11:00AM
Have you contacted these folks, who apparently work on these machines? They might be willing to give you the info....

[www.artisantg.com]
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: neophyte
Date: July 25, 2019 11:18AM
I assume there is no other access panel on the entire thermocycler case that could lead to a battery compartment?
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 25, 2019 12:23PM
Quote
Carm
IIRC most batteries in machines that are used for backup are 3v, similar to computer CMOS batteries.
If the spot on the board with the + and - doesn’t have a battery on the back, I would solder a couple of pins there and connect a cmos battery to the pins.

I would definitely NOT solder something in that location -- the wires coming from the + and - on that board go to the heated lid.

I did look on the backside of the main board, and there's no battery there.

Quote
neophyte
I assume there is no other access panel on the entire thermocycler case that could lead to a battery compartment?

Only the fuse compartment on the back. There is also an RS-232 port and voltage switch on the bottom.

Quote
anonymouse1
Have you contacted these folks, who apparently work on these machines? They might be willing to give you the info....

[www.artisantg.com]

Just did, thanks... but I suspect they'll charge about the same for the battery replacement.

...

I suppose I could ship just the boards to one of you, but it might be safer to ship the whole machine, in case there's some weird internal compartment that I'm not seeing. I might take a bunch more photos (some closer up maybe) and post here, in case there's something obvious that I'm just not seeing.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2019 12:41PM by PeterB.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: July 25, 2019 01:10PM
You mean they'll charge you as much for telling you where the battery is as replacing the battery????
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 25, 2019 01:44PM
Quote
anonymouse1
You mean they'll charge you as much for telling you where the battery is as replacing the battery????

I have yet to find a company that was willing to tell me where the battery is located.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: mattkime
Date: July 25, 2019 02:32PM
I think you should take apart a functional unit and see if the battery is located where we suspect it once was.

BE BOLD! winking smiley



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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: GGD
Date: July 25, 2019 02:39PM
Have you examined that chip with the wire tie around it that Golfer pointed out. Have you tried removing that chip from the socket to see what's under it? It looked like it might have been higher than the other chips, and possibly there is some sort of stacked socket sandwiched between the chip and the board. Maybe something is hiding there.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 25, 2019 03:19PM
Quote
mattkime
I think you should take apart a functional unit and see if the battery is located where we suspect it once was.

BE BOLD! winking smiley

I don't follow you. It is almost certainly NOT attached to the +/- terminals, since those go to the heated lid. The unit I took apart was actually functional at one point (at least, functional in the sense that it booted up).

Quote
GGD
Have you examined that chip with the wire tie around it that Golfer pointed out. Have you tried removing that chip from the socket to see what's under it? It looked like it might have been higher than the other chips, and possibly there is some sort of stacked socket sandwiched between the chip and the board. Maybe something is hiding there.

Yup, in the OP, I'd mentioned that I'd undone the tie and it turned out it was one RAM chip stacked on top of another. No battery inside or under.




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Carm
Date: July 25, 2019 03:25PM
Could the battery be in the heated lid?
I wouldn’t solder anything to the posts if it had wired coming out of it. The marks are just from clipping the excess wire length. I’ve done that when I solder.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Bo
Date: July 25, 2019 03:30PM
Vote for geekiest thread of the year! wink smiley
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: neophyte
Date: July 25, 2019 09:01PM
I apologize for seeming to beat a dead horse, but have you examined the fuse compartment? The manual from here states (pg 50):

The unit is fitted with an internal lithium battery containing a hazardous substance. This should be replaced with the original type and disposed of with care.
8.4 Protection of the Instrument Fuses
The Px2 main power supply inlet is fitted with two T6.3A fuses (20mm x 5mm). If necessary, the fuses may be replaced.

In my experience, this battery would be coin-sized, like a quarter or half-dollar, and would be on its own board, like in Titanium Powerbooks, or in a clip, and not necessarily on the bottom of the boards in your pics. And it would most likely be situated far from the heating block and lid.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Racer X
Date: July 25, 2019 10:55PM
this thread rocks!
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 25, 2019 11:37PM
OK to answer more questions:

1) VERY doubtful that the battery would be in the heated lid -- I haven't opened it to check, but ... think about it. Would you put a lithium battery next to a Peltier that cycles temperature to over 100oC?

2) Yes, I looked in the fuse compartment. Just two fuses, as described by the manual. I notice that there are another two fuses on the main board, that the manual conveniently did not mention. grinning smiley

3) I definitely have NOT seen any coin-sized type batteries anywhere ...

4) That other dealer (Artisan) responded that they do NOT service these machines.

Here are MANY more pics, I tried to take these closer up ... the order of the pics should be:

A) Main board, going from top left to bottom left to bottom right to top right (the main board being "U" shaped)

B) Power board, again going from left to right, top to bottom. I also tried to take some pics of the small boards that project off the power board, but these are really hard to get good photos of, without removing the boards ... and I think they're soldered in place

C) There's another board that I didn't see before, which is wedged between the power board and the main compartment. I didn't see any battery on it though ... just the RS-232 connector at the bottom.

Here they are: [imgur.com]




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2019 11:45PM by PeterB.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Mike Johnson
Date: July 26, 2019 12:48AM
The whatsits labeled BR1 and BR2 near the fuses?
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: GGD
Date: July 26, 2019 01:33AM
The pictures of the product shows an LCD control panel / user interface. Have you taken that section apart and looked for a battery around there? That might also be where the clock / calendar chip is located.

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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Carm
Date: July 26, 2019 01:46AM
Quote
Mike Johnson
The whatsits labeled BR1 and BR2 near the fuses?
BR is usually designated Bridge Rectifier...
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Bernie
Date: July 26, 2019 05:21AM
Ask the vender if you can send just the board back for battery replacement.

That would narrow down which board.

Then look to see if they clean the flux off the solder joints. Part that is different from the pictures would be it. Date code on parts, especially caps and batteries.

brain fart




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: July 26, 2019 06:17AM
Stupid question: Does it keep the time/settings when it's plugged in?

If so, why not just leave it plugged in? Maybe put it on a cart with a UPS if it needs to be moved around.



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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: MindMeld
Date: July 26, 2019 07:04AM
I'm not an electronics guy but I found this Forum's Q and A with a discussion that seems (?) to be related with this thread:

[www.labwrench.com]

If not, I apoiogize.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 26, 2019 07:29AM
Quote
MindMeld
I'm not an electronics guy but I found this Forum's Q and A with a discussion that seems (?) to be related with this thread:

[www.labwrench.com]

If not, I apoiogize.


I think we have a winner!

DS1216D

[www.mouser.com]

Description/Function:
Converts Standard CMOS RAMs into Nonvolatile Memory. Keep Track of Second, Minutes, Hours, Days, Months and Years


[pdfserv.maximintegrated.com]

Abstract:

Maxim produces a variety of products that contain embedded lithium coin-cell batteries. This article addresses questions pertaining to the specific battery content in those listed products.

Maxim produces a variety of products that contain embedded lithium coin-cell batteries. As a direct result of changes to environmental and transport legislation, customers have asked about the battery in some
of our products.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 07:32AM by space-time.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 26, 2019 07:42AM
They appear to be obsolete, so digikey, mouser, newark do not sell it. But I found it here

[www.utsource.net]

and they link to an youtube video

[youtu.be]

I wonder if you can diassemble that chip and replace the 2 small coin batteries that should be hidden behind that PCB?
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 26, 2019 07:49AM
from the previous thread

OK guys ... so it turns out the RAM chip that Golfer pointed out (the one that was tied up) has another RAM chip inside of it rather than a battery.

Can you post pictures of this chip? seems a lot like that chip on youtube video
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: Bernie
Date: July 26, 2019 07:52AM
Leader!





Staunton, Virginia
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: July 26, 2019 07:52AM
Looks promising!!
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 26, 2019 01:17PM
OK, I'm not sure if I followed all of this, so what you all are saying is that -- embedded INSIDE a chip -- are two lithium cells, and to replace these cells, you have to replace the whole chip? Do I have that right?

So I presume that this is the "chip within a chip" that I mentioned in the OP?




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: JoeH
Date: July 26, 2019 01:30PM
Yeah, that chip within a chip, actually a chip carrier. From the video which shows the sides of that "chip", it may be two chip carriers stacked and might separate in the middle. The bottom half would have the batteries, and the top half the CMOS RAM chip.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 01:30PM by JoeH.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 26, 2019 03:09PM
Quote
JoeH
Yeah, that chip within a chip, actually a chip carrier. From the video which shows the sides of that "chip", it may be two chip carriers stacked and might separate in the middle. The bottom half would have the batteries, and the top half the CMOS RAM chip.

So this must be the one that was tied down, that I separated, and found a chip within a chip ... but no visible coin-type batteries, because they're inside the inner chip??




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: JoeH
Date: July 26, 2019 04:23PM
Quote
PeterB
Quote
JoeH
Yeah, that chip within a chip, actually a chip carrier. From the video which shows the sides of that "chip", it may be two chip carriers stacked and might separate in the middle. The bottom half would have the batteries, and the top half the CMOS RAM chip.

So this must be the one that was tied down, that I separated, and found a chip within a chip ... but no visible coin-type batteries, because they're inside the inner chip??

Under that PCB that the chip you see is mounted on. If I am seeing the scale right in the video space-time posted a link to - [youtu.be], the whole assembly is a DIP chip carrier on the bottom with the batteries and the PCB in that. Another open DIP carrier is on top of that to provide space for the small DIP RAM chip and pin sockets to plug in the chip that was on top of that when it was installed in the device.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2019 04:27PM by JoeH.
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 26, 2019 04:50PM
Yes PeterB, you need to post pictures of that chip, forget the rest of the machine.

The good news is that you can apparently buy replacement chips (a newer model backwards compatible with the original chips). You may be able to start a refurbishing business. My commission for finding the replacement parts and for the idea is 10%
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 26, 2019 06:08PM
[www.ebay.com]
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: space-time
Date: July 26, 2019 06:09PM
[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Followup to electronics help...
Posted by: PeterB
Date: July 26, 2019 06:13PM
OK, pics of the chip as I removed it, here: [imgur.com]

(I wasn't terribly careful about this, the pins are now all bent up)

The problem as I can see it, is that the inner chip seems to be soldered inside the outer. That's going to be nearly impossible to replace...

And the underside of this chip has no visible batteries, either...




Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)
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