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Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Buck
Date: April 08, 2020 10:50AM
I was wondering about that anyway. Years ago, my Father-in-law passed away (84) at home with cancer, kidney failure, pneumonia, so what was the cause of death? "Natural causes" No autopsy.

I think by marking all the positive deaths as Covid-19 there will be an artificial decrease in other causes.


[www.foxnews.com]

The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of someone's life.

Dr. Deborah Birx, the response coordinator for the White House coronavirus task force, said the federal government is continuing to count the suspected COVID-19 deaths, despite other nations doing the opposite.

"There are other countries that if you had a pre-existing condition, and let's say the virus caused you to go to the ICU [intensive care unit] and then have a heart or kidney problem," she said during a Tuesday news briefing at the White House. "Some countries are recording that as a heart issue or a kidney issue and not a COVID-19 death.

"The intent is ... if someone dies with COVID-19 we are counting that," she added.

Asked whether the numbers could skew data the government is trying to collect, Birx said that would mostly apply more to rural areas where testing isn't being implemented on a wide scale.

"I'm pretty confident that in New York City and New Jersey and places that have these large outbreaks and COVID-only hospitals. ... I can tell you they are testing," she said.

Dr. Michael Baden, a Fox News contributor, said it's reasonable to include the death of someone infected with the virus, who also had other health issues, in the COVID-19 body count.

"In the normal course, autopsies would then determine whether the person died of the effects of the COVID virus, whether the person had a brain tumor or brain hemorrhage for example that might be unrelated to it and what the relative significance of both the infection and the pre-existing disease is," Baden told Fox News.

However, the number of autopsies being performed could be low due to the danger of infection, he said.

"Then you will include in those numbers some people who did have a pre-existing condition that would have caused death anyway, but that's probably a small number," Baden said.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: April 08, 2020 11:00AM
Sweden is also trying to separate deaths in a manner described here. However I don't see the point in doing so.

We all have co-morbidities like are being mentioned here and all will eventually contribute to our deaths. If someone has covid-19 and the additional stress on the body causes them to have that brain hemorrhage they're susceptible to earlier than they would have, then the cause of death is brain hemorrhage, caused by covid-19. That rightly should be listed as a covid-19 death because it was involved.

Yes, these deaths should be listed also with everyone's co-morbidity but they also should be listed as covid-19 deaths. What would be the purpose of suppressing that information?
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: cbelt3
Date: April 08, 2020 11:01AM
That is a load of politicizing bovine excretions. Yes, "Cause of Death" is a specific diagnostic tool. HOWEVER.... if COVID-19 didn't exist, would the patient have died ?

Comorbidities are definitely making it harder for patients to survive the virus. But without the virus they would have survived.

I think that classifying fatalities as COVID-19 is a significant tool in convincing the population to take precautions. Reversing that will cause a significant number of avoidable deaths.

I regard this and other politicizing 'it's safe conclusions' as attempted mass murder.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Sarcany
Date: April 08, 2020 11:03AM
Quote
Buck
The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of someone's life...

That's misleading.

Most people are not being tested. Corpses are not being tested because the tests are still not available in quantity and are for the most part reserved for critical patients.

Without a positive test result, the CDC is pushing for cause-of-death to be marked as other than COVID-19. Heart-failure, pneumonia, pre-existing conditions... Doctors have been complaining about this for weeks.



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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: S. Pupp
Date: April 08, 2020 11:03AM
As a former hospice physician, I have some experience with filling out death certificates.
The listed cause of death on a death certificate is not going to be "COVID-19," it is going to be "respiratory failure" or "cardiac arrest" as the first listing, with COVID-19 listed as a cause of the first listing.

If COVID-19 causes death from kidney failure, it is right to list it as a COVID-19 related death.

What Dr. Birx is saying doesn't make sense. From what she says, it sounds to me more like other countries are fudging the numbers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2020 11:06AM by S. Pupp.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 08, 2020 11:05AM
>Covid-19 deaths overstated.

I generally think such claims should be backed by substance.

Yes, there are likely people who are dying covid positive who would have died anyway - but that seems pretty uncommon.

---

To what ends are we questioning this? Whaat are we trying to accomplish?



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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 08, 2020 11:05AM
What about all the victims not being included in the counts?

Quote
Washington Post

The fast-spreading novel coronavirus is almost certainly killing Americans who are not included in the nation’s growing death toll, according to public health experts and government officials involved in the tally.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention counts only deaths in which the presence of the coronavirus is confirmed in a laboratory test. “We know that it is an underestimation,” agency spokeswoman Kristen Nordlund said.

A widespread lack of access to testing in the early weeks of the U.S. outbreak means people with respiratory illnesses died without being counted, epidemiologists say. Even now, some people who die at home or in overburdened nursing homes are not being tested, according to funeral directors, medical examiners and nursing home representatives.

Postmortem testing by medical examiners varies widely across the country, and some officials say testing the dead is a misuse of scarce resources that could be used on the living. In addition, some people who have the virus test negative, experts say.

As a result, public health officials and government leaders lack a complete view of the pandemic’s death toll as they assess its course and scramble to respond.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: S. Pupp
Date: April 08, 2020 11:11AM
Reading it again, it seems to me that the problem is that Fox News is misinterpreting what Dr. Birx is saying. She is not saying that COVID-19 deaths are being overstated; that is the interpretation of Fox News.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 08, 2020 11:11AM
Quote
mattkime

To what ends are we questioning this? Whaat are we trying to accomplish?

Buck has established himself as the forum's Covid-19 denier, and his shared articles (though recently less racist) have a common theme:

This isn't such a big deal - it will all be fixed with some cheap hydroxycholoquine - let's reopen the country so the economy can rebound

Standard right-wing sound bites, plopped right into the T&D side of the forum. So it goes.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: April 08, 2020 11:12AM
Just to directly address the first statement in the title of this thread:

Covid-19 deaths are not overstated. They are understated, as rjmacs posted.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: April 08, 2020 11:19AM
Trying to be polite: She is being overly political.

Being less polite: She's a victim of Dunning-Kruger syndrome, or at least the Peter Principle.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Buck
Date: April 08, 2020 11:20AM
mattkime, look at the first line about my FIL. I can't look at the death certificate myself (family issues), but I wonder if his death is listed as cancer, kidney failure or pneumonia? Or is it now in all 3 lists? I am just curious.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: April 08, 2020 11:25AM
Quote
Buck
mattkime, look at the first line about my FIL. I can't look at the death certificate myself (family issues), but I wonder if his death is listed as cancer, kidney failure or pneumonia? Or is it now in all 3 lists? I am just curious.

This is a great question. Your FIL is probably listed as pneumonia (with the bug that caused it if they tested for that) as that is likely the direct cause of death (I'm guessing here but it does kill a lot of older people). However if the cancer was lung cancer that should also be listed as a co-morbidity as it will have directly contributed since it impairs lung function and thus the ability to clear the fluid from the lungs. Probably the kidney failure was not listed but may have been noted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2020 11:30AM by Lew Zealand.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 08, 2020 11:26AM
Quote
anonymouse1
Trying to be polite: She is being overly political.

Being less polite: She's a victim of Dunning-Kruger syndrome, or at least the Peter Principle.

She's not a career civil servant. She's a political appointee of the current administration, and (unlike Anthony Fauci) can be fired at any moment for stepping out of line. Fauci can be sidelined, but actually firing him would be a much steeper climb.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 08, 2020 11:27AM
Quote
Buck
mattkime, look at the first line about my FIL. I can't look at the death certificate myself (family issues), but I wonder if his death is listed as cancer, kidney failure or pneumonia? Or is it now in all 3 lists? I am just curious.

to what end?



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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Buck
Date: April 08, 2020 11:34AM
I'm wondering, are other causes of death down since February?

Were some January pneumonia deaths C19 because we didn't know?
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 08, 2020 11:37AM
Quote
Buck
I'm wondering, are other causes of death down since February?

Were some January pneumonia deaths C19 because we didn't know?

both are likely. It will take some time to get and analyze the numbers. I'm sure it will get plenty of attention.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: April 08, 2020 11:41AM
Quote
Buck
I'm wondering, are other causes of death down since February?

Were some January pneumonia deaths C19 because we didn't know?

I have the same question about other causes. My assumption is that we'll see a slight dip in some causes of death, possibly those from infectious diseases which people are not getting because they are getting the disease du jour, covid-19.

I doubt deaths as early as January are covid-19 related. That's because we know most (all?) of the nucleation sites of covid-19 spread in the US so we know how long it's been extant and spreading and therefore which pneumonias could have been covid-19 related. And thus which ones cannot have been covid-19 related.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Grateful11
Date: April 08, 2020 12:16PM
Well I can tell this, they'll believe it because my brother just told me this about 2 days
ago but nothing to back it up so now he does. He's a brainwashed 'he who shall not
named' supporter.

This is stupid because it's complications to the virus that kills you, just like AIDS.
An old friend of mine had AIDS and died decades ago but the AIDS virus isn't what
killed him it was complications to AIDS.



Grateful11
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Bill in NC
Date: April 08, 2020 12:57PM
Had a relative diagnosed with terminal breast cancer in late 2018, under Hospice care until death in early 2019, death certificate just says "breast cancer" no mention of cardiac/respiratory arrest, etc...was in an ALF so it was probably a few hours before her body was found.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2020 12:58PM by Bill in NC.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: S. Pupp
Date: April 08, 2020 12:58PM
Quote
Grateful11
...it's complications to the virus that kills you, just like AIDS.

Exactly right.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: April 08, 2020 01:42PM
Take a look at her resume. I have. She's not stupid, just in way over her head.

[www.state.gov]

Quote
rjmacs
Quote
anonymouse1
Trying to be polite: She is being overly political.

Being less polite: She's a victim of Dunning-Kruger syndrome, or at least the Peter Principle.

She's not a career civil servant. She's a political appointee of the current administration, and (unlike Anthony Fauci) can be fired at any moment for stepping out of line. Fauci can be sidelined, but actually firing him would be a much steeper climb.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 08, 2020 01:50PM
Quote
anonymouse1
Take a look at her resume. I have. She's not stupid, just in way over her head.

[www.state.gov]

I'm fully aware of her résumé, and I hardly think she's stupid. I'm saying she's been compromised.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: pdq
Date: April 08, 2020 03:11PM
I think we'll know in retrospect, since date rates will look a little like this (only hopefully less so):



Hard to miss that spike 102 years ago, and the baseline on either side is pretty clear in retrospect.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: modelamac
Date: April 08, 2020 03:28PM
Just how is that going to affect anyone today? So the death info may be somewhat inaccurate. We are only using it get get rough numbers at the moment. There is the same inaccuracies in the number of known cases. There are cases that pass unreported.

This is NOT a big deal!

We will have a rough idea in the end (This fall?) of the numbers and will have begun to plan for acquiring the necessary resources to handle the next wave. We did not start dealing with the virus in time to do any better. We just weren't prepared, and pointing fingers about that is like __ssing into the wind.



Ed (modelamac)

I think I will just put an OUT OF ORDER
sticker on my head and call it a day.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: April 08, 2020 03:28PM
Yow 1918! And that slope up after 1982...
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: April 08, 2020 04:26PM
I don’t disagree with you. Compromised is a very good word.

Quote
rjmacs
Quote
anonymouse1
Take a look at her resume. I have. She's not stupid, just in way over her head.

[www.state.gov]

I'm fully aware of her résumé, and I hardly think she's stupid. I'm saying she's been compromised.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Bernie
Date: April 08, 2020 04:54PM


Hmmmmmm




Staunton, Virginia
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 08, 2020 05:48PM
It’s a vast conspiracy amongst medical professionals and certain governors because they want Medicare for all. Some medical professionals are purposely dying just to support their conspiracy. I used the same source as Buck.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 08, 2020 05:57PM
Quote
Bernie


Hmmmmmm

Wow, it's almost like the social distancing is working on the flu, too!

Whodathunkit?!?!



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: April 08, 2020 05:59PM
Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Bernie


Hmmmmmm

Wow, it's almost like the social distancing is working on the flu, too!

Whodathunkit?!?!

Yeah, wow! That graph is pretty cool, I love it.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: pdq
Date: April 08, 2020 08:12PM
Quote
Bernie


Hmmmmmm

Debunking Coronavirus Trutherism

A statistical artifact which happens every year:



Keep trying, Bucky and Bernie.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2020 08:13PM by pdq.
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Re: Covid-19 deaths overstated. Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
Posted by: Steve G.
Date: April 08, 2020 08:16PM
Responding to a question about whether the death toll for coronavirus is being inflated, Dr Fauci noted, “You will always have conspiracy theories...They are nothing but distractions.”
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