previous post 02/26/20
The Associated Press

Grandfather pleads guilty in Puerto Rico cruise ship death

Quote
AP -
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — A grandfather accused in the fatal fall of his young
granddaughter from an 11th-story window of a cruise ship docked in Puerto Rico
last year pleaded guilty Thursday to negligent homicide.
Salvatore “Sam” Anello of Valparaiso, Indiana, said earlier this year that he would
drop a not-guilty plea to help end what he called “this nightmare” for his family.
Eighteen-month-old Chloe Wiegand slipped from his grasp and fell about 150
feet from an open window of Royal Caribbean Cruises’ Freedom of the Seas ship
in July 2019.

Puerto Rico prosecutor Laura Hernández said Anello would be sentenced Dec. 10.
“We have found justice for Chloe,” she said.

Defense attorney Michael Winkleman said in a statement that Anello will not face
any jail time and that he will serve probation in Indiana.
...The civil case is ongoing.

So the parents still want Royal Caribbean to pay up!

---

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Quote
MrNoBody
previous post 02/26/20
The Associated Press

Grandfather pleads guilty in Puerto Rico cruise ship death

Quote
AP -
SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico (AP) — A grandfather accused in the fatal fall of his young
granddaughter from an 11th-story window of a cruise ship docked in Puerto Rico
last year pleaded guilty Thursday to negligent homicide.
Salvatore “Sam” Anello of Valparaiso, Indiana, said earlier this year that he would
drop a not-guilty plea to help end what he called “this nightmare” for his family.
Eighteen-month-old Chloe Wiegand slipped from his grasp and fell about 150
feet from an open window of Royal Caribbean Cruises’ Freedom of the Seas ship
in July 2019.

Puerto Rico prosecutor Laura Hernández said Anello would be sentenced Dec. 10.
“We have found justice for Chloe,” she said.

Defense attorney Michael Winkleman said in a statement that Anello will not face
any jail time and that he will serve probation in Indiana.
...The civil case is ongoing.

So the parents still want Royal Caribbean to pay up!

I would imagine the guilty plea is going to throw a pretty big wrench in the civil case.

---

C(-)ris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's an extremely tragic story but the video shows the grandfather was the negligent party and cause of the child's death. The video appears to show the grandfather stockage his head past the railing for over eight seconds before picking the child up to hold her out. [www.youtube.com]

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Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]

I would imagine the guilty plea is going to throw a pretty big wrench in the civil case.


Yes, for the defendant.

Agreed, it's a tragedy, but Grandpa deserves some jail time.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

Quote
RAMd®d
Agreed, it's a tragedy, but Grandpa deserves some jail time.

Yep.

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

I got nauseous watching that video. A tragedy. Negligent. Homicide.

---

San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

That will certainly keep him from doing it again. If the idea of jail is to prevent a repeat occurrence of bad behavior - how does jail time do that? If the idea of jail time is to punish someone for bad behavior - explain to me how that works in this instance.

What is the purpose of committing someone to jail - is it to prove they are stupider than the rest of us?

For most people in cases like this it's purely revenge, how does that make anything better for anyone involved?

Unless I can be shown even a sliver of premeditation/intent to harm, I’m fine with no jail time.

As a punitive action, it’s utterly pointless. At best, it would be sadistically pouring salt into a wound that will never heal. If it’s somehow supposed to be a balm to an aggrieved body politic, it’s not justice to torture the already tortured. And the circumstances and subset of types this situation applies to makes further punishment very unlikely to serve as some effective ‘object lesson’.

Lastly, while I wouldn’t call the probability high, I have spent some little time in close relation to individuals in various states of cognitive decline.

I can see how this could even still be the infinitely sad result of an occasion where someone was beset by a brief period of extreme confusion, where normally obvious cues are capriciously ignored or not read, and it leads to actions being taken that would never have been normally.

One horrific step beyond leaving the keys in the refrigerator or forgetting your baby in the back seat of the car. Again, I would see no point in pursuing punitive action.

Jail may be a relief for him. i know i would rather be there then with my wife if i killed our grandchild.

honestly, this is tragic and sticking an old man in jail isn't going to change that, only exacerbate it. but i want to see the civil case dismissed and the family ordered to pay the defendants legal fees (or a reasonable portion)

---

“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late

Jail might deter others from doing such an idiotic thing. It’s why we lock up people who leave their child in a hot car because they forgot.

---

Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

The primary disincentive against committing a crime is the probability of getting caught - not the severity of the sentence. That's one of the main arguments against the death penalty.

In this case, jail time neither serves the interest of justice, deters the grandfather from committing the same crime, nor others from doing the same.

It's a family tragedy. Move on.

---

--------------

Embarassing myself on the Internet since 1978.

Quote
raz

It's a family tragedy. Move on.

Except for the part where the family is still suing the cruise line for the grandfather's actions.

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Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]

Quote
pRICE cUBE

Quote
raz

It's a family tragedy. Move on.

Except for the part where the family is still suing the cruise line for the grandfather's actions.

And, depending on the jurisdiction, they'll probably win something. We had a case a while back where a mother held (and dropped) her two year old over the edge of the 4 foot railing of the zoo's wild dog cage. They've recently settled.

linky

---

--------------

Embarassing myself on the Internet since 1978.

Quote
raz

Quote
pRICE cUBE

Quote
raz

It's a family tragedy. Move on.

Except for the part where the family is still suing the cruise line for the grandfather's actions.

And, depending on the jurisdiction, they'll probably win something. We had a case a while back where a mother held (and dropped) her two year old over the edge of the 4 foot railing of the zoo's wild dog cage. They've recently settled.

linky

The parents' attorney, Robert Mongeluzzi, said then that the zoo "failed miserably in their solemn responsibility to prevent the attack"

This attorney would also sue if safety measures blocked the child's view of the dangerous animals.

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Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]

It is a horrific tragedy indeed. Yes the family should have to pay for legal fees incurred by defendant to date since their story was obviously a lie. If an investigation finds this was a complete accident (hey, I know it sounds crazy to us, but people kill kids all the time and then try to cover it up, we all sadly know that)...then I think not jail but some community service is in order here. If nothing else, then just to remind other people...don't dangle anyone out a window. EVER. Morons.

Hi everyone,

I'll reaffirm what I said in a previous thread. I've stood by windows at that height in buildings and on cruise ships. It'd be incredibly difficult to mistake an open window for a closed window. You'd see the difference. You'd feel the difference. You may even smell and hear the difference.

In my opinion, based on what I've read about the case and what I saw in the video footage (from several sources), the grandfather made a mistake that is stupid beyond reason and the child paid the ultimate price for it. And, believe me, the footage is horrifying.

The family is facing grief that I can't fathom. I suspect the grief, horror and disbelief of the situation are playing a role in the civil lawsuit. In the end, though, based on what I saw in the footage, you can't put the responsibility on Royal Caribbean.

Robert

The primary disincentive against committing a crime is the probability of getting caught - not the severity of the sentence.


But why would getting caught be a disincentive if there is no sentence?

There absolutely are instances where the sentence isn't even a bare consideration.

I'd argue that in the majority of those instances, the probability of getting caught didn't matter either.

It's not a popular belief, but I do believe there is a debt to society that is owed, by someone who's chosen to commit a crime.

That debt may take a number of forms depending on the nature of the crime, but it's still a debt.

To say the family has suffered enough, the grandfather's grief, etc., just isn't enough.

Maybe a year, maybe two.

To let him simply walk away, even knowing "he'll never do that again" is unconscionable.

His personal grief is not a consideration as far as I'm concerned.

His action is no different than someone who forgets that they've left a child locked in a hot car.

Well, actually it's worse.



And, depending on the jurisdiction, they'll probably win something.


And depending on the jurisdiction, they'll probably get squat.

One very big reason that many people become plaintiffs and many defendants settle has nothing to do with liability or culpability – it's about the expense of legal fees.

It usually costs little to nothing to sue because of the contingency business model, and cubic dollars cubed, to defend.

Back to crime and punishment, prison time makes this a criminal act, not just some 'oh, what a tragedy' and while it certainly is the latter, it's also the former and should be seen and treated as such.

One voluntarily commits an action that endangers anybody's welfare, and results in injury or death of another isn't just a tragedy, and that needs to be acknowledged.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.

I cannot describe the disgust I feel when I see people being so careless and reckless
with children in their care. I do not know if it's stupidity, obliviousness, mental
illness, or brain injury. Apparently, it is only done by human beings.

I cannot recall nor have even heard of a non-human primate endangering any of
their juveniles with such behavior. I have definitely never seen it documented.
If any such instances exist, please prove me wrong.

---

39°36'17"N 75°44'43"W

DuckDuckGo
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DemComm Records 2021 Greatest Hits
includes:
Taxman by Joe & Nancy's Rich Ice Cream Band
The Humpty Dance by The Harris-Brown Hookup
Lets Spend The Night Together by The Fang-Swalwell Gang
Díaz-Canel Is A Friend of Ours by The AOC Squad
My Old Kentucky Retirement Home by MitchMcC & The Soggy Boxer Boys
Burning Down The House by Merrick & The Goons
Back In the USSR by Bernie's Red Square Trio

.

---

It is what it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2020 06:08PM by N-OS X-tasy!.

MrNo,

Animals, including non-human primates, are known to do some horrible things to their young, i.e. abandonment, cannibalism, infanticide, etc. The difference is as humans, we are expected to use our intelligence, reason and not do things that are monumentally stupid.

Robert

The primary disincentive against committing a crime is the probability of getting caught - not the severity of the sentence.


But why would getting caught be a disincentive if there is no sentence?

There absolutely are instances where the sentence isn't even a bare consideration.

I'd argue that in the majority of those instances, the probability of getting caught didn't matter either.

It's not a popular belief, but I do believe there is a debt to society that is owed, by someone who's chosen to commit a crime.

That debt may take a number of forms depending on the nature of the crime, but it's still a debt.

To say the family has suffered enough, the grandfather's grief, etc., just isn't enough.

Maybe a year, maybe two.

To let him simply walk away, even knowing "he'll never do that again" is unconscionable.

His personal grief is not a consideration as far as I'm concerned.

His action is no different than someone who forgets that they've left a child locked in a hot car.

Well, actually it's worse.



And, depending on the jurisdiction, they'll probably win something.


And depending on the jurisdiction, they'll probably get squat.

One very big reason that many people become plaintiffs and many defendants settle has nothing to do with liability or culpability – it's about the expense of legal fees.

It usually costs little to nothing to sue because of the contingency business model, and cubic dollars cubed, to defend.

Without a lot of resources, settling in often the preferred option.

---

I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.