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Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 19, 2021 11:33AM
Original thread: [forums.macresource.com]

I asked for thoughts about the Nikon Z6, Z7 cameras since I am seeing the Z6 drop below $1k in the used market. I was thinking I could supplement my D800 SLR cameras with a M-ILC (Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Camera) camera that via adapter can use my Nikon AF lenses. What I opened up was a conversation about Nikon, Canon, and Sony's M-ILC. Researching all three platforms has been my singular focus over the weekend.

After doing an overview of the 3 aforementioned systems, I realized I am at a gear crossroads. I don't need to move immediately but looking into future. The D800 image quality is fantastic considering how old it is.

Originally, I was going to grab 2 Nikon D850 and go the mirrorless route later. Now I am pondering a few alternative scenarios with M-ILC. I am not sure how Nikon and Canon will balance their SLR and M-ILC lines. Sony has essentially gone all in on N-ILC over SLR.

A. Switch to Sony M-ILC and keep one body for my Nikon 400m 2.8. I cannot live without that lens but Sony's 400mm 2.8 is $12,000. I would be lucky to get $3500 for my Nikon 400mm 2.8. Never been a fan of the Sony menus but the image quality is excellent. Sony's zoom lenses zoom the same direction as the Nikons. Lenses can be adapted but to used at full speed on cameras such as the A9 and A9 II. I would move to Sony lenses. Downside of Sony lenses, they are $$$ and not too many on the used market for the E full frame Sonly mount yet.

B. Switch to Canon. I can already tell the Canon R5 and R6 grip would be perfect ergonomics in my hand. I have not had one in hand but it is something I can just tell by looking at it. I have never been a fan of Nikon ergonomics. They Z6II and Z7II grips don't appear to have changed that. Downside of Canon is the lenses zoom opposite direction. I have done 3 switched now between Nikon and Canon and I don't think I want to reverse the muscle memory for showing sports/action again. I am an old dog that doesn't want to lean new tricks. A used Canon 400mm 2.8 IS can be had for around $3500-4000 on the used market.

C. Buy Z6 II or Z7 II and have lenses fro Nikon I can use via the adapter. Nikon's autofocus doesn't seem to be as fast as Sony and Canon M-ILC high end cameras. Some of you know I switched from Canon to Nikon because of the AF issues Canon had for the 1D3 and 5Dm2. Canon released a 1D IV but it was more expensive and was still Aps-H size. Made more sense to add one more D3 to the other one i already had to use leftover Nikon lenses from a former employer that switched to Canon. Staying with Nikon would probably be the most stable move considering the flash units I have. It would help if a pro M-ILC could be released by Nikon. I'm not in the mood to spend $6500 to replace my D3 when it is unclear if Nikon will support both platforms in the future.



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]






Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/19/2021 05:18PM by pRICE cUBE.
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: January 19, 2021 12:02PM
Sounds like you might benefit from setting up a hierarchy of what you value most.
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 19, 2021 12:05PM
Which one will bring you the most satisfaction?

Seems like you have too many choices and are intellectually stuck.

So go with your heart, and have fun!
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 19, 2021 12:07PM
Quote
anonymouse1
Sounds like you might benefit from setting up a hierarchy of what you value most.

Every priority conflicts against another one. Using Nikon is like Windows to me. I can do it but the ergonomics of Canon are more Mac-like. One huge sticking point is the 400mm 2.8, I can't live without it and I am not willing to spend over $10k for one.



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: Spiff
Date: January 19, 2021 12:17PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
anonymouse1
Sounds like you might benefit from setting up a hierarchy of what you value most.

Every priority conflicts against another one. Using Nikon is like Windows to me. I can do it but the ergonomics of Canon are more Mac-like. One huge sticking point is the 400mm 2.8, I can't live without it and I am not willing to spend over $10k for one.

I love it! It's all a matter of perspective. I am no professional by any standards, but do love to take pictures. I grew up with my Dad's Nikon 35mm camera and have stayed with it since. Yes, I've tried point and shoot cameras here and there, but I've always come back to Nikon.

I agree with what will make you happy. That is a big must in order to keep you going in your business. Also - how much longer are you going to be in the photog business, that being your prime source of income? If it's gonna be a while (sorry, Snickers), then you might consider making a switch to Canon or Sony. If it's going to be only a short while, stick it out with Nikon. Just a thought.
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: deckeda
Date: January 19, 2021 12:34PM
Been there, done that, and when my bank account said, “Why are we even having this conservation?” I pivoted to another distraction.

The D800 has been a clear “pause” decision for you; otherwise you would have already picked up the 850 last year. Similarly, today’s mirrorless is either a viable option now or it isn’t. We know where the market is going but if none of the mirrorless models are no-brainer compelling enough I’d wager you have your answer. Doesn’t mean you can’t change your mind later.

Canon and Nikon won’t support SLRs forever. I don’t even expect them to support APS-C for too long. Canon already stopped developing EF glass. I would imagine that Nikkor 400 should work OK on a Sony? I’d be hard pressed to support a body mainly for one lens, at least not for long. Now you’re getting into having two types of chargers, batteries and all the rest of it, not to mention the work that might go into adjusting color signatures in post.
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 19, 2021 12:57PM
Whats motivating the change?



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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: January 19, 2021 01:09PM
.....but that didn't end well for Pandora.......



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 19, 2021 01:15PM
Spiff: Sadly/Galdly, photography is no longer my main source of income. This came in real handy as the Pandemic put many freelancers on an economic bind. I feel for those that suffer due to this mess but a decision I made years ago helped me through this time. These days I take pictures for private clients so you aren't going to see my byline.


deckeda: The D800 image quality is still outstanding. Some cameras in the market now still don't beat it for image quality. It is an outstanding camera. Sadly, it has never felt at home in my hands. The best way to describe the "feeling" is with Nikon and Sony I think more about how the camera works where as with Canon I feel like I shoot with less technical mumbo jumbo in my head. In the end, there isn't massive difference. I am just super picky.


mattkime: I am looking at the writing on the wall as Nikon and Canon get more serious about M-ILC. How long will it be until Canon and Nikon will support SLR and associated lenses and accessories. Years down the road but I find it similar to what I am looking at now with Mac. I will not be buying any Intel Macs going forward. I am not immediacy making a chance and had actually decided on 2 D850 until the M-ILC platforms more seriously. If I got D850 now, I be another 5-6 years down the road to M-ILC territory. Wondering is I should take the opportunity to start fresh.



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 19, 2021 01:20PM
Stick with what you know for now unless you don't mind spending the time and money to change.

Cameras age much better than computers.



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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 19, 2021 01:29PM
I guess I should also mention that the D850 frame rate would make it a unifying camera for me. Instead of a D3 for speed and D800 for resolution/image quality. With the right battery pack and vertical grip, The D850 can be a sports/action camera and still deliver image quality for non sports clients. Would be great if the Z7II had better autofocus performance. Nikon M-ILC lags behind Canon and Sony from tests I have seen.



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: Z
Date: January 19, 2021 02:20PM
This sounds like a job for borrowlenses.com or similar rental service. Spend a bit, play with them and find what you like?
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 19, 2021 02:31PM
Quote
Z
This sounds like a job for borrowlenses.com or similar rental service. Spend a bit, play with them and find what you like?


That is a smart idea. Unfortunately, I dislike paying money to rent something and not have equity.



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: Dik2
Date: January 19, 2021 02:45PM
If you can sell your Nikon 400 for what you can buy a Canon 400 for, I suggest you make the switch to a Canon R5. The AF and FPS are a major improvement over what you've got now!
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: deckeda
Date: January 19, 2021 02:48PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE

deckeda: The D800 image quality is still outstanding. Some cameras in the market now still don't beat it for image quality. It is an outstanding camera. Sadly, it has never felt at home in my hands. The best way to describe the "feeling" is with Nikon and Sony I think more about how the camera works where as with Canon I feel like I shoot with less technical mumbo jumbo in my head. In the end, there isn't massive difference. I am just super picky.

That's also how I approach it, however since I'm not a professional I have the luxury of buying (or not) what I want, as opposed to what I need since there are no business dollars attached to any of that requiring justification. We're the ones guilty of clogging up these sorts of decisions for folks like you. smiling smiley

Ergonomcs are their own weird thing. Makers surely and artificially screw this up for strange reasons related to marketing and simple design (at least sometimes). I never liked my Digital Rebel, not because of it's limited performance (that was a nice 6MP sensor in my opinion, great colors) but instead, because I owned an Elan II that spoiled me for how a modern electronic camera should be experienced.

It took me a while to realize why. The Elan II / Elan 7 was more of a mid-level design, more in keeping with what later became the 10D (and subsequent "better" APS-C models) all of which had better grips, and the large, rear Command dial, just as God always intended. When they removed the aperture ring at the FD/EF changeover, there wasn't much opportunity to overcome that in a really good way. The rear Command dial remains my favorite way to change aperture without thinking "where the hell is aperture," but I already know it won't be available to me when I go mirrorless.
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: deckeda
Date: January 19, 2021 02:50PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Z
This sounds like a job for borrowlenses.com or similar rental service. Spend a bit, play with them and find what you like?


That is a smart idea. Unfortunately, I dislike paying money to rent something and not have equity.

I disagree. You gain quite a bit of equity by knowing more about where to aim thousands of dollars later. It's a remarkably small investment compared to that.
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 19, 2021 03:48PM
Quote
Dik2
If you can sell your Nikon 400 for what you can buy a Canon 400 for, I suggest you make the switch to a Canon R5. The AF and FPS are a major improvement over what you've got now!


Are you saying the Canon R5 AF is better than the D850 and D3?



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 19, 2021 03:54PM
Quote
deckeda

That's also how I approach it, however since I'm not a professional I have the luxury of buying (or not) what I want, as opposed to what I need since there are no business dollars attached to any of that requiring justification. We're the ones guilty of clogging up these sorts of decisions for folks like you. smiling smiley

It took me a while to realize why. The Elan II / Elan 7 was more of a mid-level design, more in keeping with what later became the 10D (and subsequent "better" APS-C models) all of which had better grips, and the large, rear Command dial, just as God always intended. When they removed the aperture ring at the FD/EF changeover, there wasn't much opportunity to overcome that in a really good way. The rear Command dial remains my favorite way to change aperture without thinking "where the hell is aperture," but I already know it won't be available to me when I go mirrorless.


deckeda, I welcome all the varied opinions from this forum. I don't think I would get the same thought provoking replies from a camera forum in regards to understanding Macs. Plus I want opinions from people enjoying their passion for photography, not just pure utility and dollars.

I didn't realize we are Elan II alum. I still have mine from when I broke into the newspaper business. My other camera was the A2e but I sold it to buy a 1N which was sold to but a 1V.



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 19, 2021 03:59PM
Quote
deckeda
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Z
This sounds like a job for borrowlenses.com or similar rental service. Spend a bit, play with them and find what you like?


That is a smart idea. Unfortunately, I dislike paying money to rent something and not have equity.

I disagree. You gain quite a bit of equity by knowing more about where to aim thousands of dollars later. It's a remarkably small investment compared to that.


Don't you know I am a cheap SOB? Maybe after the pandemic is over, I will go to the camera store and actually gets hands on some gear.



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 19, 2021 05:10PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Dik2
If you can sell your Nikon 400 for what you can buy a Canon 400 for, I suggest you make the switch to a Canon R5. The AF and FPS are a major improvement over what you've got now!


Are you saying the Canon R5 AF is better than the D850 and D3?


Reading onto the R5/R6 AF unit. Looks to be pretty advanced. [www.canonwatch.com]



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: JoeM
Date: January 19, 2021 08:39PM
I equate your dilemma with what I constantly went through with purchasing audio gear when I was in that business. My thought would be to make your change in stages, over time by keeping one body for your Nikon 400m 2.8 since you really like it and it would take $3.5K-$12K just to replace that lens. Then decide on the mirrorless platform you want to move to and add that to your Nikon. Sure you have to deal with two cameras but you can take more time to come up with the equivalent replacement lens.



JoeM
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: Speedy
Date: January 19, 2021 08:56PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
can't live without it and I am not willing to spend over $10k for one.

I must tell myself this at least once a week.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: Dik2
Date: January 19, 2021 09:38PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE
Quote
Dik2
If you can sell your Nikon 400 for what you can buy a Canon 400 for, I suggest you make the switch to a Canon R5. The AF and FPS are a major improvement over what you've got now!


Are you saying the Canon R5 AF is better than the D850 and D3?

Yes
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 19, 2021 09:55PM
I think renting is a good idea - or whatever your preferred method of getting your hands on a camera is.

We like to think that we can sit and THINK HARD and come up with the answer but real world experience is the true test. If you're interested in changing or innovating, the most efficient route might be trying all routes.



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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: vision63
Date: January 19, 2021 10:09PM
I think you'll make whatever you choose work well. They're all great systems.
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: deckeda
Date: January 19, 2021 11:05PM
Quote
pRICE cUBE

I didn't realize we are Elan II alum. I still have mine from when I broke into the newspaper business. My other camera was the A2e but I sold it to buy a 1N which was sold to but a 1V.

About a year or so I got a great deal on an Elan 7e and grip. It fixes the Elan II reliability issues we didn’t know about in the 90s, while offering more modern performance. But in 2009 I captured a cherished image of my then 3yr old using the Elan, and with Sensia’s range achieving both the blue sky and darker foreground while my girl played, completely backlit but not silhouetted. My EOS 300D would have rendered the sky white and muddied the rest. So in 2009 I could not afford to give up film completely and because of that image the Elan’s a keeper, even if it now sits on the shelf most days. One of these days I’ll pick up a BP-50 vertical grip and sidestep the expensive 2CR5 battery.
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Re: Opened up a Pandora's Box of camera platform for myself
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: January 20, 2021 06:54PM
The R5 and R6 look mighty good after further research. Might stay with Nikon and wait for them to improve AF on their mirrorless. Not sure what Nikon's financial future and stability will be. Also don't know if I have it in me to replace every lens and learn to zoom the opposite direction again.



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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