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Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 30, 2021 08:13AM
Inherited a relatively-high-value trade-in (not really my kind of car), and thinking about putting that toward my first EV. I think it could/would be a mostly-run-around-town car - we have a gas car that we could travel longer distances in. Would like it to be safe. Not expecting it to ever drive itself (particularly around town). Not looking for a high end/high performance model, but want one that will last me for 10 years or more.

Have no particular preconceptions or prejudices; doesn’t have to be available today, but maybe this year.

What say the combined wisdom of the MRF board?
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: btfc
Date: January 30, 2021 08:37AM
I’d check out the Kia Niro if you can find one.


Don’t forget subsidies:

[evcharging.enelx.com]
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: Fritz
Date: January 30, 2021 08:44AM
my cuz is on his 2nd Prius and Fla friends love theirs.


!#$@@$#!

proofraed by OwEn the c@t.

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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 30, 2021 09:15AM
Oh come on tell us what you inherited!


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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: space-time
Date: January 30, 2021 09:38AM
Chevy Bolt is 200 miles, pure EV

Chevy Volt Gen 1 has 35 miles, avoid. Good car in general but some small annoying issue. Defective heat pump, an electrical issue with the visor that causes a short and blows the same fuse that powers the back up camera and backup light. Also uses premium gas if you need it. Get a Get 2, 53 mile on battery, and uses regular gas when needed.

Or get a low end Tesla.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2021 09:39AM by space-time.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 30, 2021 09:48AM
Quote
mattkime
Oh come on tell us what you inherited!

A Lexus sedan, in nice shape and fairly low miles, although from 2012. Nice car, but not for me.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 30, 2021 09:50AM
Quote
Fritz
my cuz is on his 2nd Prius and Fla friends love theirs.

Is there a straight EV Prius? Or is this a plug-in hybrid?

You can see how out of touch I’ve become.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 30, 2021 10:16AM
Quote
pdq
Quote
Fritz
my cuz is on his 2nd Prius and Fla friends love theirs.

Is there a straight EV Prius? Or is this a plug-in hybrid?

You can see how out of touch I’ve become.

The Prius models are either hybrid or PHEV. The latter are very hard to find and Toyota doesn’t even advertise.

For what you propose, a Leaf or Bolt would be fine.

The next big jump would be a Tesla Model 3.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: davester
Date: January 30, 2021 10:28AM
My brother bought a Leaf Plus and likes it, though it is definitely no Tesla. Pretty boring econobox drive. The only reason that he bought it rather than search for a used Tesla is because Nissan was selling them at fire sale prices, far below retail. For their retail price I would look elsewhere but if you can get one at a deep discount it may be worth it.


"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 30, 2021 10:56AM
All depends upon how much you want to spend. People love the Prius but I'm not crazy about it. You could also look at a used Volt or Bolt depending upon your needs.

You should go to a couple of dealerships and drive them / kick the tires. That will likely answer a lot of your questions.


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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: davester
Date: January 30, 2021 11:16AM
If you're interested in used cars, note that you can get a used 2013 Tesla Model S (absolutely awesome car) with free lifetime supercharging for around $25,000. The down side of those is no Autopilot, but then you said you didn't care about that.


"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: Lux Interior
Date: January 30, 2021 11:46AM
Tesla Model S Plaid+
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: January 30, 2021 12:14PM
I think a Bolt or a Kia or Hyundai would be good options.


**************************************
MacResource User Map: [www.zeemaps.com]#
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 30, 2021 12:22PM
Quote
space-time
Chevy Volt Gen 1 has 35 miles, avoid. Good car in general but some small annoying issue. Defective heat pump, an electrical issue with the visor that causes a short and blows the same fuse that powers the back up camera and backup light. Also uses premium gas if you need it.

I'd certainly advise you not to buy space-times Gen 1 Chevy Volt but in general Gen 1 Volts are not known for always having the annoying issues that unfortunately ST has experienced. my 2013 hasn't had them. In summer i get around 45 miles electric and how often one needs gas depends upon how you're using the car. I last bought gas 1800 miles ago at the end of September. I 'll probably need to buy more by the end of next month. Because I have no trips planned I will buy Premium though if I'm on a road trip that is going to burn through the entire tank I buy Regular and have not noticed any change in mpg or performance.

If you just want it for running errands a Gen 1 or 2 Volt will be fine though I would go for a 2015 Gen 1 as that was that generation's peak. On my Volt forums i seem to see a lot of issues with the 2017 Gen 2 so you might want to consider other years.

And if you have money to burn I was really impressed by a youtube review of the forthcoming Ford Mach-E. The RAV offering from toyota looks pretty sweet too. Then again, Teslas are nice also...


If you want to fix our country, work with us in the states. statesproject.org

"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: January 30, 2021 12:46PM
pdq appears to be asking about pure EV, not hybrid, so some of the above responses would be off-question.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: January 30, 2021 12:56PM
Quote
davester
...a used 2013 Tesla Model S (absolutely awesome car) with free lifetime supercharging...

Nota bene: Teslas purchased new after March 2017 don't transfer free supercharging when sold.

"...customers can place an order for a Model S or X until January 15th, 2017 and take delivery by April 15, 2017 to receive free unlimited Supercharging."

“Sorry, it’s not really sustainable at volume production & doesn’t incent optimal behavior. We probably should have ended this earlier.” Elon Musk

[electrek.co]
[www.tesla.com]
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 30, 2021 01:02PM
Quote
DeusxMac
pdq appears to be asking about pure EV, not hybrid, so some of the above responses would be off-question.

never hurts to recommend what might be the best of both worlds.


If you want to fix our country, work with us in the states. statesproject.org

"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 30, 2021 01:12PM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
DeusxMac
pdq appears to be asking about pure EV, not hybrid, so some of the above responses would be off-question.

never hurts to recommend what might be the best of both worlds.

Going to disagree, hybrids are not the best of both worlds.

Unless its something like a Volt, and you keep it under whatever the battery only use is.




Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: jardster
Date: January 30, 2021 01:13PM
I drive a Tesla 3, and love everything about it. Installed a charger at home, have only charged twice away from home (for long drives, we take my wife's gas car).

It's fun to drive, and hasn't given me a lick of trouble.


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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 30, 2021 01:36PM
There is also the Hyundai Ioniq for a sedan (comes in hybrid, all-electric, or battery models) or the crossover Hyundai Kona (258 mile range)


“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 30, 2021 02:11PM
Quote
jdc

Going to disagree, hybrids are not the best of both worlds.

Unless its something like a Volt, and you keep it under whatever the battery only use is.

well, i was talking about the Volt. I use mine on battery 90% of the time. I guess whatever one defines as 'Best' depends largely upon what works best for your own situation. For me 'Best' is mostly battery around town unless I have to go Costco and ICE availability when I have to do a road trip. I also have a Honda Element but still prefer to do a road trip in the Volt as its fuel economy is better. I keep the Element for sentimental reasons (my late brother's car) and for force of habit similar to my keeping a landline long past its actual utility.


If you want to fix our country, work with us in the states. statesproject.org

"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: DeusxMac
Date: January 30, 2021 02:52PM
Quote
Ombligo
...(comes in hybrid, all-electric, or battery models)...

What’s the difference between “all-electric” and “battery” models?
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: January 30, 2021 03:08PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Ombligo
...(comes in hybrid, all-electric, or battery models)...

What’s the difference between “all-electric” and “battery” models?

The battery model uses rechargeable AA's, a lot of them. smiley-laughing001
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: SteveO
Date: January 30, 2021 03:35PM
Buddy of mine has a Sonata hybrid, he likes it a lot but man the ride is rough. It should be more dependable than ICE Hyundai/Kias as IIRC the hybrid tech is licensed from Toyota.

Another buddy is a big EV guy, swears by the Leaf. He's had both versions and he says the new one is just amazing. I drove it about 2-3 years ago, it is pretty cool tech for sure.

And another buddy is on his second or third Prius in 12 years.

May not hurt to wait several months - there are supposed to be a boatload of EVs coming out soon from other mfrs. if none of the above appeal to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2021 03:36PM by SteveO.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: January 30, 2021 04:20PM
FWIW, we're thinking about a second car (probably a hybrid, we don't have a garage for charging),
and in looking around, while the Chevy Volt looks like great value, so does the Ford Fusion Hybrid. Not sure about reliability on either, though....
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 30, 2021 04:33PM
Quote
graylocks
well, i was talking about the Volt. I use mine on battery 90% of the time.

Maybe we need to define "hybrid" for this conversation.

To me -- a regular prius, or a sonata, or a Fusion are "hybrids" -- where they use gas engines with the help of tiny electrics to boost MPG. Sure, they get great mileage, but they still require gas. If I can get a nice 4 Cyl Camry that gets 40 MPG, vs a tiny cramped Prius that gets 50 MPG, your net gain is only 10 MPG... meh. Unless you are doing TONs of driving, where the MPG starts to make up.

But a Volt, which can run on battery only, isn't really that kind of hybrid.

More "volt" type cars is what we should be making. 50-100 miles of all electric power for around town.. and gas only when you need it.

I would jump on a car like that.... 90% of our driving is just that. School and shopping. Rarely do we take long trips. Heck, I have no qualms with renting a car for a long trip even. Book early enough and for a long period of time, they get cheap.




Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: graylocks
Date: January 30, 2021 05:44PM
Quote
jdc
More "volt" type cars is what we should be making. 50-100 miles of all electric power for around town.. and gas only when you need it.

I would jump on a car like that.... 90% of our driving is just that. School and shopping. Rarely do we take long trips. Heck, I have no qualms with renting a car for a long trip even. Book early enough and for a long period of time, they get cheap.

This I absolutely agree with. I think GM was premature in discontinuing the Volt. The infrastructure isn't there to go fully electric and the Volt was a great transition vehicle.


If you want to fix our country, work with us in the states. statesproject.org

"Success isn't about how much money you make. It is about the difference you make in people's lives."--Michelle Obama
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: January 30, 2021 05:59PM
Quote
DeusxMac
Quote
Ombligo
...(comes in hybrid, all-electric, or battery models)...

What’s the difference between “all-electric” and “battery” models?

sorry, I screwed up the names.
The Hybrid is like the Prius giving 59mpg
The plug-in electric has a gas engine giving 52mpg but also has a separate battery mode for short-range trips with a 29-mile range
The all-electric model is a pure battery vehicle with a 125-mile range


“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.” -- François de La Rochefoucauld

"Those who cannot accept the past are condemned to revise it." -- Geo. Mathias

The German word for contraceptive is “Schwangerschaftsverhütungsmittel”. By the time you finished saying that, it’s too late
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: January 30, 2021 06:12PM
It depends on your use case. For city driving, the Prius is 20mpg more. And I’m 6’1”, and our Prius doesn’t cramp me....

Quote
jdc
Quote
graylocks
well, i was talking about the Volt. I use mine on battery 90% of the time.

Maybe we need to define "hybrid" for this conversation.

To me -- a regular prius, or a sonata, or a Fusion are "hybrids" -- where they use gas engines with the help of tiny electrics to boost MPG. Sure, they get great mileage, but they still require gas. If I can get a nice 4 Cyl Camry that gets 40 MPG, vs a tiny cramped Prius that gets 50 MPG, your net gain is only 10 MPG... meh. Unless you are doing TONs of driving, where the MPG starts to make up.

But a Volt, which can run on battery only, isn't really that kind of hybrid.

More "volt" type cars is what we should be making. 50-100 miles of all electric power for around town.. and gas only when you need it.

I would jump on a car like that.... 90% of our driving is just that. School and shopping. Rarely do we take long trips. Heck, I have no qualms with renting a car for a long trip even. Book early enough and for a long period of time, they get cheap.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: Rolando
Date: January 30, 2021 06:17PM
For your purpose, it looks like you want either a Kia Niro or the Nissan Leaf. Similar range and performance.

I like the Niro. More pleasant looking, slightly roomier.


San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: clay
Date: January 30, 2021 06:25PM
used Leafs in the 5 year old range can be a pretty sweet deal if you find one with good battery health and reasonable mileage. We've had a 2013 Leaf for 2 years. My favorite car we've ever owned. The only downside is range on the low side (around 75 miles in ideal conditions for our particular car). But as an around town car it absolutely sparkles. It has a nice quiet smooth ride. Acceleration is really nice. Not as quick as a Tesla, but it's got great off the line performance. It has been very reliable for us.

We have a Prius hybrid for trips and as a second car.

Neither car is as exciting or sexy as a Tesla, but they also cost a ton less and we can trade up to something newer in a couple of years when the battery health craps out.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: DinerDave
Date: January 30, 2021 06:52PM
Quote
anonymouse1

while the Chevy Volt looks like great value, so does the Ford Fusion Hybrid. Not sure about reliability on either, though....

I read in one of the respectable auto mags that the Volt had the highest customer satisfaction of any GM car, EVER.

Dave


Welcome to Dave's BBQ!

Many have eaten here....

Few have died
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: jdc
Date: January 30, 2021 07:52PM
Quote
anonymouse1
It depends on your use case. For city driving, the Prius is 20mpg more. And I’m 6’1”, and our Prius doesn’t cramp me....

perhaps, and its not really specific numbers that matter. I see plenty of prius drivers that floor it all the time and drag race at every light... they arent getting 50+ MPG. =)

The problem is it still uses gas. aAgain, we *all* could benefit from the Volt model.... for every car.

But not some silly 18 mile range battery combined with a gas engine is really useless. It still uses gas. But a 50-100 mile battery only option.

If I could buy a nice SUV with a 75 mile battery, awesome.

I really don't understand how this isn't an obvious solution to every car maker.

Its like an all or nothing approach.?




Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: January 30, 2021 08:14PM
I like the Volt idea. Go with a Gen 2. Note that you will lose mileage in the winter just like any ICE car does except even more, maybe your range will drop to 30 miles before the generator kicks in. Also, at 15°F the generator runs to provide heat. The Volt will still use the battery. There are workarounds but you may find that the gas used is minimal even below 15°.

The best thing to do is to try before you buy. See how they handle, stop and go. The Volt can get up and go, the Prius, not so much.

I like the Volt because it offers one pedal driving. I don’t think Tesla has that. My wife’s Volt has ~60k miles and the brakes are like new. My Cadillac ELR uses the same Voltec system and is the car we take on long trips. Right now it is charging on 110v at our AirBnB 1400 miles from home - right beside a Tesla Model S that our host drives and also charges off 110v.


Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: Speedy
Date: January 30, 2021 08:15PM
Quote
DinerDave
Quote
anonymouse1

while the Chevy Volt looks like great value, so does the Ford Fusion Hybrid. Not sure about reliability on either, though....

I read in one of the respectable auto mags that the Volt had the highest customer satisfaction of any GM car, EVER.

Dave

The Volt is a fantastic piece of technology. It was the best selling vehicle of its kind right up until GM quit making them.


Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 31, 2021 12:22AM
Teslas are absolutely one pedal. Even more than our Volt.

Rumor is the dealers hated the Volt, which contributed to their demise.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: anonymouse1
Date: January 31, 2021 12:24AM
We'll maybe end up with a Leaf (I can charge it at work) or more likely a volt. If I get splurgy, maybe a Lincoln MKZ hybrid, but for the use case (maybe 20 miles a day for work commute), the MKZ is hard to justify....
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: Mr645
Date: January 31, 2021 06:54AM
Chevy Bolt

Or wait for the Tesla Model S Plaid edition comes out
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: pdq
Date: January 31, 2021 08:50AM
Sounds to me like Leafs, Priuses, and Volts (albeit used) are the popular ones here.

Yeah, I’ll prolly look at a Tesla too, but not a high-end one.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: sekker
Date: January 31, 2021 10:12AM
Quote
pdq
Sounds to me like Leafs, Priuses, and Volts (albeit used) are the popular ones here.

Yeah, I’ll prolly look at a Tesla too, but not a high-end one.

Fair warning - do NOT test drive a Tesla unless you are ready to buy one. They are amazing cars and even 'low' end are compelling. We do not have the performance or enhanced version of the Model Y (just dual motor for winter driving safety), and it's trivial to find one going 80 MPH on the highway!

The Volt, like all newer EVs, is STILL fun to drive, especially in the city. Quick - far faster from 0 to 30/45 MPH than any ICE cars in town except the occasional sports car. Even those lag a bit out of a stop light compared to the Volt.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: testcase
Date: January 31, 2021 04:08PM
"What’s the difference between “all-electric” and “battery” models?"




A loooooong extension cord......... eye rolling smiley
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: January 31, 2021 05:16PM
Quote
graylocks
Quote
jdc
More "volt" type cars is what we should be making. 50-100 miles of all electric power for around town.. and gas only when you need it.

I would jump on a car like that.... 90% of our driving is just that. School and shopping. Rarely do we take long trips. Heck, I have no qualms with renting a car for a long trip even. Book early enough and for a long period of time, they get cheap.

This I absolutely agree with. I think GM was premature in discontinuing the Volt. The infrastructure isn't there to go fully electric and the Volt was a great transition vehicle.

Right?!? This makes me crazy, as the Volt tech seemed a clear improvement on anything else. The Japanese would have put that tech into 10 different models across their lines. Stupefying!


Hurts like a bastid...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2021 05:17PM by mrbigstuff.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: January 31, 2021 05:27PM
I'm a form over function guy who prefers a graceful blend of style and substance.

Teslas are great performing, just not great looking to my eye.

I do not like the look of the Bolt.

Hybrids, in general, are more ICE than EV.

The EV Corvette is nice, the Ford equivalent in a pinch.

For me, the all-time winner is the Chevy Volt.

I'm both envious and jealous of Volt owners.

Well, except maybe s-t.

Sorry, mate.

That Chevy/GM dropped it for the Bolt was hugely disappointing and borderline criminal.

I love the look of the Volts, and the idea of a generator backup, should one wander a little far afield.

And that the generator kicks automatically to burn aging gas?

Genius, and very Apple like.

I might be a bit biased, but my vote is for a Volt.





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Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

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Oh, and I should add...
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: January 31, 2021 05:29PM
...I don't believe the Volt sacrificed function for form to achieve its graceful blend of style and substance.





I am that Masked Man.

All you can do, is all you can do.

There’s trouble — it's time to play the sound of my people.

Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

I've been to the edge of the map, and there be monsters.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody counts or nobody counts.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: DinerDave
Date: January 31, 2021 06:09PM
Quote
RAMd®d


And that the generator kicks automatically to burn aging gas?

Genius, and very Apple like.

.

I feel GM really thought the Volt out. They used studies that show the average commute at the time was 35 miles, so they made the battery large enough to go farther than that. It CAN use high powered charging, but the Volt would charge fully overnight in a normal household 110 outlet (* hours). And as RAMd said, ICE firing up every 30 days to lube the system and protect fuel.
I'm actually surprised at the level of thought for GM.

Dave


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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: mattkime
Date: January 31, 2021 11:31PM
Quote
DinerDave
I feel GM really thought the Volt out. They used studies that show the average commute at the time was 35 miles, so they made the battery large enough to go farther than that. It CAN use high powered charging, but the Volt would charge fully overnight in a normal household 110 outlet (* hours). And as RAMd said, ICE firing up every 30 days to lube the system and protect fuel.
I'm actually surprised at the level of thought for GM.

Dave

Good engineering, bad product management.
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Re: Thinking about an EV; what’s your rec?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: February 01, 2021 11:47AM
...ICE firing up every 30 days to lube the system and protect fuel.
I'm actually surprised at the level of thought for GM.


I'm not.

I think that's a type of thing most engineers regardless of manufacturer, consider and make a point of, but that gets cut by the Yeah, But is that Reeeeally Necessary department.





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