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My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: March 01, 2021 11:35AM
A recent Mac OS Ken podcast mentions something of a drought in Taiwan affecting ultra-water used in the construction of silicon chips or something.

One of the mentioned characteristics of UPW is that 'so clean it is regarded as an industrial solvent, absolutely central to high-tech manufacturing, but not safe for human consumption'.

It goes into more detail regarding use, but mentions nothing about how it's created (extreme filtering, I imagine) or how it's dangerous.

I've been trying to find some reputable source of information to learn more about the stated toxicity, but have found only what seems like laypersons' anecdotal experience.

Does anybody have a scientific source to explain exactly what it is (deionized, salts and minerals removed, TDS, etc)?

Obviously, this is higher purity than one would get from a PUR or Brita water filter, so I'm not concerned about my drinking water.





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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: deckeda
Date: March 01, 2021 11:45AM
Col. Jessup says, “You can’t handle the H2O!”
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: sekker
Date: March 01, 2021 11:53AM
This looks like a good resource to start.

[www.chinawaterrisk.org]

I was trained in semiconductor fab, and the quality of water was only second to the quality of the silicon wafer.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: GGD
Date: March 01, 2021 12:03PM
In the space program the fuel cells that generated their electricity used Hydrogen and Oxygen as the fuel, and water was the byproduct. And that water was their drinking water. I'm not sure how to get any purer that constructing water from Hydrogen and Oxygen, but there didn't seem to be any safety concerns about drinking it.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: Acer
Date: March 01, 2021 12:08PM
[blogs.scientificamerican.com]

"Water molecules have a slight negative charge, which means they’re good at dissolving or pulling other molecules apart. When water is in an ultrapure state, it’s a “super cleaner,” sucking out the tiniest specks of dirt...But if you were to drink ultra-pure water, it would literally drink you back. The moment it came through your lips, it would start leaching valuable minerals from your saliva."

Another source, not authoritative, says that by the time it hit your lower gut for absorption, it will have already adulterated itself with contaminants from the journey to make "normal" water.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2021 12:10PM by Acer.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: March 01, 2021 12:24PM
water has a slight charge so pure H2O would likely have some solvent properties, but I'd think that as it interacted with one's body it would be 'contaminated' enough to make that a moot point pretty quickly. I know that in scenarios where true H2O is consumed they often add minerals to it to make it have some discernible taste. I guess pure water is a let down.



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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: freeradical
Date: March 01, 2021 01:10PM
Quote
Acer
[blogs.scientificamerican.com]

"Water molecules have a slight negative charge, which means they’re good at dissolving or pulling other molecules apart. When water is in an ultrapure state, it’s a “super cleaner,” sucking out the tiniest specks of dirt...But if you were to drink ultra-pure water, it would literally drink you back. The moment it came through your lips, it would start leaching valuable minerals from your saliva."

Another source, not authoritative, says that by the time it hit your lower gut for absorption, it will have already adulterated itself with contaminants from the journey to make "normal" water.

That was an astonishing piece. It just goes to show how far down the toilet Scientific American has gone since their downward trajectory began in the mid to late 80's.

Just to begin, water is a polar molecule. It has a slight negative charge near oxygen, and is slightly positive near the hydrogen atoms. This is why water is called a universal solvent. When table salt dissolves in water, sodium ions are attracted towards the oxygen end of water, while the chloride ions are attracted to the hydrogens.

This is just basic High School chemistry. I can't believe that this once great magazine has basically become the National Enquirer of science.

As to the rest of that piece. OMFG.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2021 01:10PM by freeradical.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: Acer
Date: March 01, 2021 01:30PM
Quote
freeradical
Quote
Acer
[blogs.scientificamerican.com]

"Water molecules have a slight negative charge, which means they’re good at dissolving or pulling other molecules apart. When water is in an ultrapure state, it’s a “super cleaner,” sucking out the tiniest specks of dirt...But if you were to drink ultra-pure water, it would literally drink you back. The moment it came through your lips, it would start leaching valuable minerals from your saliva."

Another source, not authoritative, says that by the time it hit your lower gut for absorption, it will have already adulterated itself with contaminants from the journey to make "normal" water.

That was an astonishing piece. It just goes to show how far down the toilet Scientific American has gone since their downward trajectory began in the mid to late 80's.

Just to begin, water is a polar molecule. It has a slight negative charge near oxygen, and is slightly positive near the hydrogen atoms. This is why water is called a universal solvent. When table salt dissolves in water, sodium ions are attracted towards the oxygen end of water, while the chloride ions are attracted to the hydrogens.

This is just basic High School chemistry. I can't believe that this once great magazine has basically become the National Enquirer of science.

As to the rest of that piece. OMFG.

Alrighty, then. Sorry I brought it up.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: sekker
Date: March 01, 2021 02:13PM
I concur with the critics here.

I would gladly drink pure, 55.000 Molar water. Would not harm me one bit.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: MrNoBody
Date: March 01, 2021 02:26PM
It just goes to show how far down the toilet Scientific American has gone
Yep but after all this is America, where the likes of Bill Nye are oft
quoted as a "science authority" by lawmakers and 'journalists' who should know better!



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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: March 01, 2021 02:29PM
......have 'ultra pure water' coming out of my *****hole......can I sell it for $500/ounce.....???



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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: neophyte
Date: March 01, 2021 03:14PM
Quote
sekker
I concur with the critics here.

I would gladly drink pure, 55.000 Molar water. Would not harm me one bit.

That Sci Amer blog quote is indeed wrong, as freeradical points out.

I have worked in laboratory settings for about 40 years now, and have routinely filled gallon containers with deionized water to take home for my family to drink. The water is made by passing tap water through activated carbon to remove chlorine and disinfectant byproducts, then through several mixed bed deionization resins to produce 18.2 mega-ohm water. Really, we have used this water almost exclusively for all food prep and drinking, with the exception of large pasta preparations where we boil in tap water, but then rinse the cooked pasta with di water. All coffee and tea is brewed with this water, and we drink it as is when we just want "a glass of water".

Wife has blood work done periodically, and never has had low, or out of kilter electrolytes. Daughter has drunk this her whole life except when away at college, where she buys distilled water to drink.

Granted, this is anecdotal evidence, with an n equal to one family.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: Diana
Date: March 01, 2021 03:24PM
Okay then.

Ultra pure water is just that, free of many if not all of the contaminants normally found in water.

Water is a very small molecule, consisting of an oxygen atom with two hydrogen atoms attached to it. It is thus polar, and the negative and positive ends of this bent molecule can and easily does strip the oppositely charged ions from other ionically-bonded substances. Due to its small size, it can easily surround these ions, and thereby stabilize the resultant solution, and thus it can continue to pull more ions away, stabilize, blah blah on we go. Note that I said ionic substances; substances covalently bonded, depending on the strength of the bond, resist this dissolving effect of water. What substances are ionic and which are covalent? Salts are ionic, and oils are covalent, as an example. Crystals can be in some cases dissolved in water, as the intermolecular forces holding the crystal together are weaker than the resultant forces in the solution. It all boils down to the energy levels—is the energy level of the solution lower than the energy level of the crystal (or substance)? Then, is there enough energy, known as the activation energy, in the environment for the process to go forward? If the activation energy is too high, then dissolution will not occur, even if the solution form is lower in energy and thus more stable than the solid form.

Water thus carries ions; a way to determine how much the water carries is to determine how easily it passes an electric current through it. The higher the current, the more ions are present in the water. It is possible to distill water, eliminating the ions, but it takes some 25 iterations to ensure that the water is (relatively) pure. Any contaminants on the surface of the glass distillation apparatus will get pulled into the water, so distillation is time consuming and prone to problems. It is usually done through a process of ion exchange cartridges, paired with reverse osmosis and higher pressures until the required purity is achieved. I did graduate work regarding electrochemical detection of neurochemicals, and “dirty” water (a) could bind to the molecule I was working with and thus change the electrochemical properties of that substance, and (b) could easily affect background signals, and thus obscure the signal I was looking for. The standard for water purity was 18MOhm, easily obtained with a laboratory water purification system. I would imagine that the semiconductor industry would have more stringent requirements, as any contamination is problematic.

As far as drinking said ultrapure water:

18MOhm water has very few ions and thus will set up an osmotic gradient with a living cell. Water would then flood into the cell, and ions would be pulled out, all in the goal of equilibrium. Remember that a solution in equilibrium is lower in energy and thus more stable than a situation of pure on one side and ions on another. The cells would explode from the pressure of the water rushing into the cell, but there is a question of whether the cell dies first from the disruption of cellular functions that depend on both ion levels and pH, or if it would explode first. Drinking ultrapure water is thus not advisable, but it makes for some hellacious extractions (think tea or coffee).

Diana

PS. The lab where I current work analyzes single cell suspensions for markers found on the cell surface. A cell by itself will be susceptible to such disruption. The lining of the gut, however, has a mucosal layer to protect the body from environmental injury, and often can protect one from such pure water. Keep in mind however, that it can (not will, but can) lead to low ion levels in the blood. Given that such an issue will constitute a crisis, you would have to drink a lot of water and not replace the electrolytes (ions) lost before it becomes a problem, as the body will do whatever it is needed to maintain the ionic equilibrium needed for life. Since lab water purification systems are not rated to produce potable water, the manufacturer will strongly advise you against drinking any water produced through their systems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2021 03:34PM by Diana.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: btfc
Date: March 01, 2021 03:28PM
Thanks, Diana, most informative!
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: March 01, 2021 04:24PM
Thanks Diana, that was super awesome!
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: March 01, 2021 04:33PM
Diana, that was terrific!

It cleared a lot up for my inner 6yo!





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: neophyte
Date: March 01, 2021 05:47PM
Lest anyone think I subjected my family to some horrible pure water experiment, let me shed some light on my experience.

I used to drink tap water until my mid-20s, with no issues at all. Then I moved from Boston to Lutz, FL (just north of Tampa) to attend graduate school, pursuing a doctorate in Medical Sciences. Within a week, both Wifey and I developed kidney pain. A drop of tap water, left to dry, left quite a salt deposit behind. I found out that the water quality where I lived was really not good. So, I started buying bottled water. But of course this ate into our meager budget. Then I noticed something about the lab animals at the university: they were fed with di water. Their (and our) electrolytes come almost entirely from food, not water. And as Diana pointed out, our entire alimentary canal is lined with a mucosal layer set in connective tissue that protects against osmotic shock.

If I were on solely a bread and water diet, I would probably not do well drinking di water. But we eat lots of fruits and vegetables, and drink milk every day, so our electrolytes are just fine, as are our guts. We are as healthy as can be expected for our age, even after drinking this water for 40 years.
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She blinded me with SCIENCE!
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: March 01, 2021 05:55PM
Just sayin'.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: March 01, 2021 06:09PM
......so.....y'all would so....tap.....that.....???



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Re: She blinded me with SCIENCE!
Posted by: Diana
Date: March 01, 2021 06:21PM
Quote
RAMd®d
Just sayin'.

Thanks all.

I just had to get all science-y ROTFL
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: March 01, 2021 07:24PM
I don't have access to my work document library right now. There is ultra pure water that isn't safe to drink. It is free from minerals and highly corrosive. It has to be piped thru proper materials or you have a mess on your hands. If one drinks it, it will pull minerals and electrolytes from your body. Too much of it can be fatal.
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Re: My latest rabbit hole: ultra-pure water?
Posted by: ztirffritz
Date: March 02, 2021 05:03PM
Quote
macphanatic
I don't have access to my work document library right now. There is ultra pure water that isn't safe to drink. It is free from minerals and highly corrosive. It has to be piped thru proper materials or you have a mess on your hands. If one drinks it, it will pull minerals and electrolytes from your body. Too much of it can be fatal.

You're thinking of di-hydrogen monoxide (DHMO). Too much of that stuff will indeed kill you.

[www.dhmo.org]

Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) is a colorless and odorless chemical compound, also referred to by some as Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or simply Hydric acid. Its basis is the highly reactive hydroxyl radical, a species shown to mutate DNA, denature proteins, disrupt cell membranes, and chemically alter critical neurotransmitters. The atomic components of DHMO are found in a number of caustic, explosive and poisonous compounds such as Sulfuric Acid, Nitroglycerine and Ethyl Alcohol.

SDS: [www.dhmo.org]



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2021 05:04PM by ztirffritz.
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