... ran across this video: [www.youtube.com]

(if you're impatient, you can jump to about the 5:30 mark)

... I knew there was conflict on the set / behind the scenes, but this was the first time I'd seen someone break down in an interview about it. My respect for Garrett Wang just increased, and also apparently the two actresses have since reconciled and settled their differences. The fact that there was so much tension, both actresses were excellent and didn't let it show through, except maybe for those scenes where it was justified by the writing. I can also see why Jeri had so many problems: it must have been extremely difficult to be brought in in the middle of the series, thrown into a group who had already been working together for a few years, and effectively replacing an actress who was a favorite of Kate's.

If you're not a fan, you don't need to comment on this thread, just pass it on by...

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Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)

I've seen this video before. It had to suck for Kate to be the 'it' - female Captain, head of the series, just to get tossed aside for the hot chick with big...assimilation bags.



DS9 seemed to have a great behind-the-scenes world. VOY, not so much. Shame because Mulgrew and Ryan were both excellent together on screen.

I think a lot of it also had to do with Jennifer Lien's leaving. Plus the fact that the whole idea of having a female captain was that it shouldn't have been necessary to have the T&A factor to "sex up" the series. That being said, I think it was unfair to Jeri to hold that against her ... Jeri did a really good job with the role she was given, and it's not her fault that the writers chose to concentrate more on her character. Also, it's not as if any particular character didn't get at least one episode that was really devoted to / about them.

---

Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)

The introduction of 36 of D was such a transparently sexist move, that even I, an admitted big fan of big b**bs, lost interest in the show, I watched it occasionally after that. I just paled in comparison next to DS9 and B5!

I think the catsuits were a mistake, both for Jeri Ryan and Enterprise's T'Pol. They both looked quite fetching in a Starfleet Jumpsuit!

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San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

There was a lot of leg and cleavage in TOS, but no one rages over it any more. When we watched the VOY series through the second time, the OMG BEWBS! effect wore off, and we found we were able to appreciate the character development and story telling. I think Mulgrew and Ryan professionally channeled the tension into their acting and you can feel it.

Quote
Rolando
The introduction of 36 of D was such a transparently sexist move, that even I, an admitted big fan of big b**bs, lost interest in the show, I watched it occasionally after that. I just paled in comparison next to DS9 and B5!

I think the catsuits were a mistake, both for Jeri Ryan and Enterprise's T'Pol. They both looked quite fetching in a Starfleet Jumpsuit!

... and you left out the most glaringly obvious case of sexist costuming in a recent ST series:



... very sad that it took so many seasons (and Edward Jellico!) to finally get her into a standard Starfleet uniform.

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Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)

Quote
PeterB

Quote
Rolando
The introduction of 36 of D was such a transparently sexist move, that even I, an admitted big fan of big b**bs, lost interest in the show, I watched it occasionally after that. I just paled in comparison next to DS9 and B5!

I think the catsuits were a mistake, both for Jeri Ryan and Enterprise's T'Pol. They both looked quite fetching in a Starfleet Jumpsuit!

... and you left out the most glaringly obvious case of sexist costuming in a recent ST series:




... very sad that it took so many seasons (and Edward Jellico!) to finally get her into a standard Starfleet uniform.

To be fair, in the pilot/first episode there was also a guy wearing the first one (but I don't recall if he was sporting boots.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2021 10:41AM by Acer.

Quote
Acer

Quote
PeterB

... and you left out the most glaringly obvious case of sexist costuming in a recent ST series:




... very sad that it took so many seasons (and Edward Jellico!) to finally get her into a standard Starfleet uniform.

To be fair, in the pilot/first episode there was also a guy wearing the first one (but I don't recall if he was sporting boots.)[/quote]

If by "sexist" you mean, a non-line officer's preference to help her do her job, counsel and comfort the crew, not boss them around, then yes, Troi's outfit was sexist, since by modern dogma, the only non-sexist option is for females to be treated EXACTLY the same as males/interdeterminate crew.

And yes, I thought the option of non-obviously female crew members having the option was pretty cool.

---

San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Love the original TNG Dress Unis as well.


But STD is SOOOOOOO CUTTING EDGE!!!

---

San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Quote
Rolando

Quote
Acer

Quote
PeterB

... and you left out the most glaringly obvious case of sexist costuming in a recent ST series:




... very sad that it took so many seasons (and Edward Jellico!) to finally get her into a standard Starfleet uniform.

To be fair, in the pilot/first episode there was also a guy wearing the first one (but I don't recall if he was sporting boots.)

If by "sexist" you mean, a non-line officer's preference to help her do her job, counsel and comfort the crew, not boss them around, then yes, Troi's outfit was sexist, since by modern dogma, the only non-sexist option is for females to be treated EXACTLY the same as males/interdeterminate crew.

And yes, I thought the option of non-obviously female crew members having the option was pretty cool.



[/quote]

Would you take a counselor/psychologist seriously who was wearing the low-cut/tight outfits that Troi wore in the beginning?

And if you want to claim the whole thing is independent of gender, then try putting her outfits on a guy and ask that same question I just asked above, over again.

** Edit, and note that she WAS a line officer as of becoming a Commander, but she was a bridge/staff officer long before that, and Jellico's comment to her that she needed to dress more formally was actually quite appropriate. [www.youtube.com]

---

Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2021 04:54PM by PeterB.

I took Jellico's comment to mean "If you're gonna be on the bridge, dress like an officer, not a counselor"

And yes, I expect my psychologist to dress like a human, not a walking uniform. Women, even Betazoid women, can choose to wear whatever they want.I would assume a male counselor would also wear non-uniform outfit, as he would choose as well.

Its been over a year since I worked in an office, but I recall they did not always wear pants and ties!

---

San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater

Quote
Rolando
Its been over a year since I worked in an office, but I recall they did not always wear pants and ties!

I don't think I've ever seen anyone show up at my office sans pants.

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Quote
Rolando
I took Jellico's comment to mean "If you're gonna be on the bridge, dress like an officer, not a counselor"

And yes, I expect my psychologist to dress like a human, not a walking uniform. Women, even Betazoid women, can choose to wear whatever they want.I would assume a male counselor would also wear non-uniform outfit, as he would choose as well.

Its been over a year since I worked in an office, but I recall they did not always wear pants and ties!

I think it is expected in some professions that they dress professionally. If you belong to a uniformed organization, it is reasonable to expect that there will be a dress code. This came up a few times in the various ST series, not just with Troi.

Yes, women (and men) can wear whatever they want, but if they are employed, their employer is within their rights to say that what they're wearing is inappropriate for their job. And then if the employee doesn't comply, they can be fired. Jellico was telling Troi exactly that... what she was wearing was "casual duty attire" (Link) ... when what she should have been wearing was a standard uniform.

Oh, and I didn't want to have to do this to you, but there's also this: [boingboing.net]

---

Freya says, 'Hello from NOLA, baby!' (Laissez bon temps rouler!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/04/2021 10:52PM by PeterB.

If you are not good with Troi’s attire, you are not the target audience.

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Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.

Quote
PeterB
Oh, and I didn't want to have to do this to you, but there's also this: [boingboing.net]

Yeah, I've seen it. Yawn...women should NOT have the choice in clothing...

---

San Antonio, TX (in the old city)


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
“Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." - Eli Weisel

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

"I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it." - Billy Graham 1981

"Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise" - Barry Goldwater