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Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: pRICE cUBE
Date: April 05, 2021 09:00AM
Looks like Olympus is going to focus on the Micro 4/3 format unlike their friends over at Panasonic that now deploy a M43 and full frame approach. Micro 4/3 is a nice platform that is well supported by Olympus and Panasonic. The camera tend to be smaller than aps-c and full frame 35mm sized cameras.
I know that some people use M43 on this forum. It's worth looking into.


[petapixel.com]

For some time there has been repeated speculation that OM Digital was going to (or should) join the L-mount alliance, but in answering questions in its “Four Thirds Day” presentation with Panasonic reconfirmed that it has no plans to produce full-frame cameras.

In the hour-long video below, summarized by DigiCame Info, OM Digital’s Toshiyuki Tsumura, who is in charge of product strategy, answered several questions about the company’s business model going forward, and of course, it was once again asked if the company would not produce a full-frame camera.

“We are on the path of Micro Four Thirds,” Tsumura says, translated from Japanese. “We do not do full-frame.”



Ways to improve web conference image and sound quality. [forums.macresource.com]


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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: davester
Date: April 05, 2021 11:44AM
I think that the term "full-frame" is a funny anachronism in the post-film world since it refers to the size of a 35mm film negative, which is irrelevant to the digital world. I also think that all of these crazy names (APS-C, Micro 4/3) for sensor sizes is a bit annoying. Couldn't someone come up with a better naming convention that would allow you to compare sensors easily, perhaps a number based on sensor area?

That said, I think that with the quality of sensors today and the trend towards miniaturization, Micro 4/3 is a large enough size for 95% of the photographers out there so I understand Olympus's direction. They have always been good at being on the forefront of major changes. There's still a need for "full-frame" and larger sensors but it is becoming more and more a niche item.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 05, 2021 02:30PM
Seems like they're making the right move although I'm not particularly interested in their form factor for my own photos.



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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 05, 2021 03:46PM
You get several sensor sizes for the same reasons you got several film sizes previously: cost and choice.

But “full frame” should not be smaller than “medium format” anything. Just go back to calling the former 35mm. If anyone’s confused, that is what model names and numbers are for.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: freeradical
Date: April 05, 2021 04:05PM
Quote
davester
I think that the term "full-frame" is a funny anachronism in the post-film world since it refers to the size of a 35mm film negative, which is irrelevant to the digital world.

"Full Frame" has more implied meaning than simply size. It also refers to the depth of field characteristics that you get with a sensor of that size. In the digital world, it also implies the low light traits of the sensor.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 05, 2021 04:29PM
^^ Yeah but that’s all just short-term stuff. Medium format has always had more depth of field, it’s just that 35mm was (eventually ... ) the default consumer format. On that score, it is a “full” frame base from which to compare others.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 05, 2021 04:35PM
I still say that if 24x35mm sensors continue to fall in price APS-C will die a merciful death because it’s just too similar in how it’s marketed, as being “good enough” despite all the “equivalent” focal length talk for lenses. And it’s not as if APS-C has ever had any camera size advantages.

Phones
A few small cameras with whatever.
Full-frame.
MF.

I honestly think we’d be there already if every new camera wasn’t compelled to additionally be a professional video rig. Prices are artificially high as a result.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: davester
Date: April 05, 2021 05:10PM
Quote
deckeda
I still say that if 24x35mm sensors continue to fall in price APS-C will die a merciful death because it’s just too similar in how it’s marketed, as being “good enough” despite all the “equivalent” focal length talk for lenses. And it’s not as if APS-C has ever had any camera size advantages.

Phones
A few small cameras with whatever.
Full-frame.
MF.

I honestly think we’d be there already if every new camera wasn’t compelled to additionally be a professional video rig. Prices are artificially high as a result.

I disagree completely. Micro 4/3 cameras, and particularly the lenses that go with them are much smaller than "full-frame" cameras. A big problem with full-frame is that the glass you need to get an equivalent focal length and aperture is massive compared to those for smaller format cameras. The package of camera body + lens is completely different from the smaller but still high quality formats. Now admittedly, that massive piece of glass does get you great light-gathering ability for very-low-light shots, but there's a significant sacrifice in weight and bulk and $ to get that.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2021 05:13PM by davester.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: Gareth
Date: April 05, 2021 06:11PM
Quote
deckeda
I honestly think we’d be there already if every new camera wasn’t compelled to additionally be a professional video rig. Prices are artificially high as a result.

I've mentioned the flip-side argument to this before. Prices may actually be cheaper because of the added video capabilities. It increases the market of the camera and more sales can mean a lower price. Remove video, and you have a smaller market, more niche camera and thus you'd need to charge a higher price.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: Z
Date: April 05, 2021 07:49PM
Quote
deckeda
I still say that if 24x35mm sensors continue to fall in price APS-C will die a merciful death because it’s just too similar in how it’s marketed, as being “good enough” despite all the “equivalent” focal length talk for lenses. And it’s not as if APS-C has ever had any camera size advantages.
.

Pentax would like to disagree with you. But most other makers would agree. (shrugs)

Happy with my new to me KP.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: April 05, 2021 08:42PM
Agree on the fact that 3 closely sized sensors within 3 categories probably won't stay marketable forever. The FX dslr will be the standard until mirrorless takes over completely I would guess (and then there will be a choice of sensor size within that mirrorless category).
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: DP
Date: April 05, 2021 08:58PM
Well, I'm pretty much all in for Micro 4/3rds. I have written before about it in my shameless plug for a new Museum:

[forums.macresource.com]

I'm here to post some images from that photo shoot to show you the quality of my Panasonic Lumix GX85 mirrorless-which, ladies and gentlemen, is a four-year-old design and is an M43 system. I like the design of the lenses which (basically) bends the light coming into the lens so that it travels perpendicular to the sensor plane, instead of at different angles, greatly reducing flare and chromatic aberration.

Because I have also written that since software is controlling the quality of images now, a full frame sensor or larger format sensors, are only really useful if you're producing larger than 11x14 prints, since 90% of what everyone sees is on a computer screen.

So here are some images I shot recently for this Museum project with the Lumix-which, has a sensor size of 17.3x13mm @ 16mp. These were shot at 400 ISO on a tripod of course and it is also a 4:3 ratio which can be adjusted to 2:3, 16:9, etc.

This first image is a GTO 389 Tri-Power in the engine display. I have it sized for the forum but out of the camera this is 4592x3448 pixels @ 240ppi. I have it rezzed here at 1000px @72ppi:



And here's a crop from the upper left. Notice the detail of the hand soap can, the breather cap, and the print on the spark plug wires.



Here is the extreme upper right corner. You can see the logo of the "Sun' analyzer, thirty feet away, thru a plastic back window, across an aisle behind glass in a separate display!



Next, another display featuring a bazillion oil cans. First, the full oil can image:



Notice also, the lack of nasty flares from the ceiling lamps.

Here's the crop of that image. Look at how much of the printing is legible:



You can read "Ask For" on the Wolf's Head sign and the Castrol can on the floor.

Another of the oil can wall. The whole image:



And the crop:



And, the Lumix shoots 4K video too.

My Canon 6D Mk. II is now my back up camera. I had thought of looking at a mirrorless Canon camera but honestly, some of the reviews for them were, well, meh. I got the Lumix for just under $500 with two lenses. A 12-32mm (24-64mm equiv) and a 45-150 (90-300mm equiv). I ended up needing a shorter lens and got the 8-18 (16-36mm equiv) f2.8-4 Leica DG Vario Elmarit for it. The oil can room pix were shot with that lens. The camera is small and light too, and some people have thought I was carrying around a Leica!

I am not doing anything where I need a Hasselblad but I can do 90% of what's out there with this Lumix.

If I have complaints it's all the automatic stuff. But I use Manual most of the time anyway.

I really think the Micro 4/3rds system and the Lumix mirrorless line is well worth looking into. No, I don't work for Panasonic grinning smiley





A throwback image to celebrate Autumn.

Disclaimer: This post is checked for correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Any attempts at humor are solely the responsibility of the author and bear no claim that any and all readers will approve or appreciate said attempt at humor.
My name is DP, and I approve this message.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: DP
Date: April 05, 2021 09:15PM
Oh, and if anyone would like, PM me and I can send a RAW file of an image for your perusal...





A throwback image to celebrate Autumn.

Disclaimer: This post is checked for correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Any attempts at humor are solely the responsibility of the author and bear no claim that any and all readers will approve or appreciate said attempt at humor.
My name is DP, and I approve this message.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: April 06, 2021 09:46AM
DP, are you using a strobe and which model if so?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2021 09:47AM by mrbigstuff.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: DP
Date: April 06, 2021 10:28AM
Nope. Shot with existing light.





A throwback image to celebrate Autumn.

Disclaimer: This post is checked for correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Any attempts at humor are solely the responsibility of the author and bear no claim that any and all readers will approve or appreciate said attempt at humor.
My name is DP, and I approve this message.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 06, 2021 12:13PM
Quote
davester
Quote
deckeda
I still say that if 24x35mm sensors continue to fall in price APS-C will die a merciful death because it’s just too similar in how it’s marketed, as being “good enough” despite all the “equivalent” focal length talk for lenses. And it’s not as if APS-C has ever had any camera size advantages.

Phones
A few small cameras with whatever.
Full-frame.
MF.

I honestly think we’d be there already if every new camera wasn’t compelled to additionally be a professional video rig. Prices are artificially high as a result.

I disagree completely. Micro 4/3 cameras, and particularly the lenses that go with them are much smaller than "full-frame" cameras. ...

You’re welcome to disagree but I never said smaller cameras weren’t smaller. Being smaller is only true relative to the SLR motif because of the space consumed by the mirror box and pentaprism ... both of which push the focal plane backwards and necessitate a larger lens for a given focal length.

Mirrorless full frame cameras are smaller, as are their lenses, for the same reasons every M43 camera is: the back of the lens is just that much close to the sensor. If this were not the case, every APC-C DSLR would always be smaller than full frame *anything*. I actually think my 6D is smaller than my 50D.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: deckeda
Date: April 06, 2021 12:35PM
Quote
Z
Quote
deckeda
I still say that if 24x35mm sensors continue to fall in price APS-C will die a merciful death because it’s just too similar in how it’s marketed, as being “good enough” despite all the “equivalent” focal length talk for lenses. And it’s not as if APS-C has ever had any camera size advantages.
.

Pentax would like to disagree with you. But most other makers would agree. (shrugs)

Happy with my new to me KP.

I'm an SLR and DSLR owner, so I'm more than comfortable enjoying their advantages. A lot of the time it comes from just being able to hold something I don't need outrigger thumb notches and accessory handles for. All of the size and weight advantages of mirrorless disappear if you have to strap things to them. It's the my-phone-is-too-small-to-use-comfortably issue all over again.

I once compared a Fuji X-T20 and X-T2 in a store. Both fantastic cameras. It wasn't the latter's performance I was drawn to, it was how much better it felt holding it, despite the added size and weight. This aspect is no different than Rebel vs 10-20-30-40-50-60-70-80-90D.

Pentax and Fuji command more awe today with me, as they always have ... because of the truly larger sensors that allow for more control of depth of field. I think that they saw the writing on the wall a long time ago and decided not to chase Canon or Nikon on full frame, K1 notwithstanding.
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Re: Olympus: All in on M43, We Will Not Go Full-Frame
Posted by: Z
Date: April 06, 2021 01:04PM
I expect that the K1iii will eventually come out, incorporating many of the advances they've made with the K3iii - with most of the dev cost sunk, if they can translate the pentaprism improvements plus the computing improvements and update to whichever latest sensor, it'll be a great machine. But they work at their own pace and don't chase the latest greatest, so it'll be another year or more before it sees light of day.
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