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U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: space-time
Date: April 13, 2021 06:14AM
[www.nytimes.com]

The Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Disease Control will stop using the vaccine at federal sites and urge states to do so as well while they investigate the safety issues.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2021 06:14AM by space-time.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: April 13, 2021 06:50AM
....pause for.....thought.....



_____________________________________

I reject your reality and substitute my own!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2021 07:52AM by NewtonMP2100.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: DP
Date: April 13, 2021 07:15AM
To be specific, I just heard on the news that it has occurred in 6 women between the ages of 18-49.





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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: space-time
Date: April 13, 2021 07:39AM
and one of them died, another one is in serious condition.

This is the last thing we needed now. Sad.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 13, 2021 07:44AM
Perspective: this is 6 cases in over 6.5 million doses administered.



rj
AKA
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: space-time
Date: April 13, 2021 07:44AM
Quote
rjmacs
Perspective: this is 6 cases in over 6.5 million doses administered.

I agree. A small risk, much much smaller than dying from Covid.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 13, 2021 07:58AM
I take low dose aspirin and am male. No worries.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 13, 2021 08:43AM
Hearing this news, I wondered if it might have something to do with gender and age range in the sense of possible pre-disposing factors; for example, suppose the women in question were all smokers who were on the pill, which increases clotting risk independent of the vaccine? Admittedly this wouldn't completely explain it, since there might have been lots of other women in this category who DIDN'T have any sort of reaction, so I'm sure there must have been other factors at play, such as weight, genetics, other medications they might have been taking, etc.




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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: Gilbert
Date: April 13, 2021 08:58AM
My son received the J&J vaccine last week. The rest of our family who has been vaccinated previous to him received the Pfizer vaccine. All of us had gone to the same county facility, but they changed the vaccine the day before he went. He had the most serious reaction compared to the rest of us (dizziness, headache, body aches) but fortunately the symptoms only lasted about a day and a half.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: April 13, 2021 09:00AM
It seems so ludicrously small that it's well inside a margin of error
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 13, 2021 09:23AM
Women under 49, just 6 cases, all with low platelets. Sounds like a similar warning for birth control pills.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 13, 2021 09:35AM
Quote
Gilbert
My son received the J&J vaccine last week. The rest of our family who has been vaccinated previous to him received the Pfizer vaccine. All of us had gone to the same county facility, but they changed the vaccine the day before he went. He had the most serious reaction compared to the rest of us (dizziness, headache, body aches) but fortunately the symptoms only lasted about a day and a half.

The severity of his reaction may also be totally attributable to his age, not the vaccine variety. Younger people with more robust immune systems tend to have stronger reactions to the vaccines.



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: Gilbert
Date: April 13, 2021 10:23AM
Thanks rjmacs. Yes, he is the healthiest of us all. That will teach him!

Quote
rjmacs
Quote
Gilbert
My son received the J&J vaccine last week. The rest of our family who has been vaccinated previous to him received the Pfizer vaccine. All of us had gone to the same county facility, but they changed the vaccine the day before he went. He had the most serious reaction compared to the rest of us (dizziness, headache, body aches) but fortunately the symptoms only lasted about a day and a half.

The severity of his reaction may also be totally attributable to his age, not the vaccine variety. Younger people with more robust immune systems tend to have stronger reactions to the vaccines.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: fauch
Date: April 13, 2021 12:29PM
The fact is statistically, these people would probably all have been fine even had they gotten COVID and now they are not. I understand high risk groups rushing to vaccinate but I just don't get the urgency in demographics that basically have zero serious risk. First Astrazeneca, now J&J (and there are unconfirmed reports of serious side effects from Pfizer and Moderna as well) and I fear this is only the beginning and as time goes on we will be seeing more serious side effects. It baffles me that anyone who is not high risk would even consider getting these vaccines.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: jonny
Date: April 13, 2021 12:48PM
This is a p.r. disaster. For a one in a million side effect. Why not just notify people of the potential side effect -like they do with every other drug.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2021 01:39PM by jonny.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 13, 2021 01:13PM
Quote
fauch
The fact is statistically, these people would probably all have been fine even had they gotten COVID and now they are not.

Could you supply the covid death rate for the vulnerable group? I'm not certain your claim is accurate.

Quote
fauch
but I just don't get the urgency in demographics that basically have zero serious risk.

Could you define the group that "basically have zero serious risk"? Looking up the related numbers would be helpful.







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2021 01:15PM by mattkime.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: April 13, 2021 01:26PM
Symptoms to be worried about within 21 days of getting the Janssen shot:
- severe headache
- shortness of breath
- abdominal pain
- leg pain
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: Pam
Date: April 13, 2021 01:33PM
Quote
fauch
The fact is statistically, these people would probably all have been fine even had they gotten COVID and now they are not. I understand high risk groups rushing to vaccinate but I just don't get the urgency in demographics that basically have zero serious risk. First Astrazeneca, now J&J (and there are unconfirmed reports of serious side effects from Pfizer and Moderna as well) and I fear this is only the beginning and as time goes on we will be seeing more serious side effects. It baffles me that anyone who is not high risk would even consider getting these vaccines.

What demographic has zero serious risk? You do know the risk of blood clots in women taking birth control is 1 in 1000 right?
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 13, 2021 01:40PM
Quote
fauch
The fact is statistically, these people would probably all have been fine even had they gotten COVID and now they are not. I understand high risk groups rushing to vaccinate but I just don't get the urgency in demographics that basically have zero serious risk.

The urgency is that the more circulating virus there is (including from infections that are asymptomatic or cause mild illness), the greater the likelihood that more transmissible (contagious) and/or pathogenic (harmful) strains will evolve and join the party. This may have little or no immediate impact for the healthy person who has an asymptomatic or mild case of covid disease, but the longer the virus has time to mutate in human populations, the greater the chance that a variant will emerge that threatens all of us.

So, if you're only looking out for #1, in the short term, then getting vaccinated might not make sense.

If, on the other hand, you want to be part of a much larger effort to prevent the emergence of strains of SARS-COV2 that may be much harder to protect against, treat, and cure - it makes sense to get immunized despite the small risks associated with the vaccines.

It's about the overall health and safety of the population, fauch. Understanding why vaccination is important requires a bigger perspective than just, 'What's in my short-term self-interest?'



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: April 13, 2021 02:30PM
Quote
NYTimes article
But the particular blood clotting disorder that the vaccine recipients developed, known as cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, is extremely rare.

"Extremely rare" doesn't cut it. Numbers, or these end up being scare tactics.

What is the background rate of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis in general?
What is the rate of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis in a cohort containing these women?

More than one cohort is needed: Age, Gender, immune conditions like low platelet counts, similar numbers with the other vaxes.

I assume those numbers haven't been fully crunched yet or there'd be more information out there. But the necessary abundance of caution is like poison to the public who are expecting the CDC/etc. to deliver them a simple answer. Frustrating.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2021 02:31PM by Lew Zealand.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: mattkime
Date: April 13, 2021 02:34PM
fwiw, teens are _hospitalized_ with covid in my county at a 0.4% rate. (that was the lowest risk group listed)

4000 per million cases. This blood clotting concern affects about 1 per million.



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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: hal
Date: April 13, 2021 04:24PM
The actual disease causes clotting at a far greater rate than the vaccine. If these people had gotten covid, they'd be in very bad shape.

[www.cnbc.com]
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: Speedy
Date: April 13, 2021 08:17PM
Why it’s a mistake to pause:

[www.washingtonpost.com]

[www.washingtonpost.com]

For the statistically impaired:

[www.washingtonpost.com]



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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: April 13, 2021 09:42PM
From the [www.washingtonpost.com] link above:

Nearly everything we do is a balance between risk and reward.

And that's the crux of it, putting risk:reward into perspective.

Statistically (I'm guessing) we experience greater risk driving to the Supermarket.

And still, as I plan a ride on my bike, I'm glad I got the Pf version, instead.

So, this is a PR problem for Johnson & Johnson, and a boon for the various See, I Told You So types.





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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: PeterB
Date: April 14, 2021 12:03PM
Quote
Speedy
Why it’s a mistake to pause:

[www.washingtonpost.com]

[www.washingtonpost.com]

For the statistically impaired:

[www.washingtonpost.com]

While all the statistics might be true, I can understand why they did a pause. Hindsight is always 20/20, and we don't know what would happen if they DIDN'T pause... the likelihood is good that additional cases of the clotting events occurring would lead to an outcry of "the vaccine is no good!" and "they were hiding things from us!" and "don't trust any vaccines!" from certain quarters. It doesn't help that J&J was also known for allegedly being aware for decades about its baby powder and cancer risk.




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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2021 12:04PM by PeterB.
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Re: U.S. Calls for Pause on Johnson & Johnson Vaccine After Clotting Cases
Posted by: rjmacs
Date: April 14, 2021 02:24PM
Quote
PeterB
It doesn't help that J&J was also known for allegedly being aware for decades about its baby powder and cancer risk.

Don't forget pushing opioids on addicted consumers through corrupt doctors....



rj
AKA
Vreemac, Moth of the Future
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