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Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: space-time
Date: May 25, 2021 01:45PM
Got this from the utility company. Our water heater (gas) was installed about 2 years ago by previous owners, so no need to rush and replace it. But eventually time will come. What do you think about going tankless?

If your tank water heater has seen better days, consider the benefits of a tankless water heater. Not only will a tankless water heater live longer—typically 20 years or more on average—it will also take up less space than a tank water heater. Plus, they can be up to 34% more energy efficient, which will save you money in the long run
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 25, 2021 01:52PM
.....so you want more.....tube tops [ less tank tops ]......???



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: Paul F.
Date: May 25, 2021 01:53PM
A friend of mine is a plumber, and has a tankless himself.
He loves it... several customers/friends he's installed them for love them.


Two caveats to them, though..
First, don't over-size them for your use. If you do, you either end up where it won't come on with a lower flow than it's designed for, OR, it'll be over-heating the water (well, not really, it'll still put it up to the thermostat temp, but the burner will run and go on and off and waste gas).

Second, if you have anyone in your house that takes long, hot, showers... running the tanked water heater out of hot water is no longer going to be an indicator to stop... so, that shower will now last two hours, and end up more expensive (and with a higher water bill...).

He absolutely loves 'em... I'm sold on the idea, too. When my current tanked water heater dies, a tankless will be going in its place. Well, the outside wall, I mean...



Paul F.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: Lew Zealand
Date: May 25, 2021 01:58PM
We've been tankless for a few years but I don't pay attention to out gas bill much so I don't know if it changed much. That bill is super-low anyway.

Only issue we have is the thing's OS crashes every few months so it's:
unplug, wait 30 sec, plug back in again.

LOL, everything today has it's own stupid crappy OS.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: Bixby
Date: May 25, 2021 02:01PM
I'm interested to see if gas tankless water heaters (which as I understand it is the way to go, electric just doesn't have the capacity) will be affected by the push to get away from gas heating as California is pushing to do. Perhaps there will be new improved electric tankless that can match gas.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: May 25, 2021 02:10PM
We've been tankless since 2009, still on our original Takagi gas unit. Love it, although we did not see much of a savings until our son moved out - endless hot water had him taking naps in the shower (at least that is what we told ourselves out teenage son was doing in there).

One thing we did to save was put in an outside unit, so no venting was needed. It was extremely easy to install, though we had the gas company hook up the gas line because our Homeowners would have voided out if I did it.

Just a few weeks ago, we put a small tankless on the camper that our son and his wife are living in for a bit. It is an inexpensive unit but should serve their needs.



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: davemchine
Date: May 25, 2021 02:26PM
I love our endless hot water system but my bill definitely went up. As mentioned some people will just stay in the shower forever.



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: MrNoBody
Date: May 25, 2021 02:35PM
iirc, it was mentioned on TOH that tankless saves you a little money on
your home owner's insurance (less chance of a flood?).
The nice part about the electrics, you can use them in zones.
Your bathroom may need a Rheem RTEX-24 24kW 240V while the kitchen
only needs an RTEX-18. Half bath would only need a RTEX-06.
No gas lines, exhaust, or air intakes needed; just 240V service.
Similar to using ductless split heat pumps only no holes thru outer walls required.



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: raz
Date: May 25, 2021 02:55PM
The Wife had been advocating for tankless for years, and I finally caved. Our summer gas bills (just for gas, not fees) runs about $9/month. So, I couldn't see where any savings were coming from. The unit plus installation was about $4K. Still can't see where I'm saving money.

But, The Wife is happy.



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: Ca Bob
Date: May 25, 2021 03:11PM
If you are in earthquake country, you might figure that the big earthquake will shut off water supplies because water mains will be broken and out here, the California Aqueduct will be destroyed as it passes over the San Andreas Fault. For a lot of homeowners, that tank water heater will be your only reserve of water until water becomes available in two or three weeks time.

Of course if you are prudent and have stocked up on a few hundred gallons of reserve water, it doesn't matter all that much. You probably won't get any use out of the tankless heater in the immediate aftermath of the quake because gas and electricity supplies will also be interrupted.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 25, 2021 03:16PM
....so tanks.....but no tanks.....???



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: macphanatic
Date: May 25, 2021 03:34PM
Some tankless units require stainless steel vent pipe. Huge cost that can exceed the cost of the tankless unit.

Unit may require more maintenance depending on your water quality.

Most units won't heat water during a power outage. A good old Natural Gas heater will.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: mattkime
Date: May 25, 2021 03:55PM
I asked about it when I replaced my water heater about a year ago - they'd need to install a larger gas line which would negate any financial benefit. Also, you'll want support for the life of the water heater - will the mfg last 20 years?

Run the numbers but don't get over eager about it.



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: jdc
Date: May 25, 2021 04:31PM
Standard in my new house, its a Rinni. Gas. In the garage, vented to the outside.

Its takes a long time to get hot water to our kitchen... but no time to the shower upstairs... about the same distance. Came with 2 wireless remotes that will allow you to "preheat" the unit before needing hot water. Put one in the drawer next to the sink in the kitchen, now just tap it before we sit down to eat, by the time we are done, its hot.





Edited 999 time(s). Last edit at 12:08PM by jdc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2021 05:18PM by jdc.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: mrbigstuff
Date: May 25, 2021 04:49PM
We have one in a vacation house that we share, and honestly, I'm not all that impressed. For that location and situation, it makes compete sense, but I would not rush and install one in my house. The startup time is pretty good but turn on another hot water source, and it does not keep up. Getting a bigger model and/or a bigger line to it doesn't make financial sense. And another downside is that, according to a plumber, they tend to turn on close to full blast every time the hot water is used, even for a few seconds. If one were to do that enough, his opinion that a multi person household would actually see a higher monthly bill.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: Speedy
Date: May 25, 2021 05:57PM
My experience in a rental we had was it was hard to modulate the temperature and pressure. Running water slowly in the kitchen sink caused the heater to shutdown. Very annoying. Showering was fine.



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 25, 2021 06:02PM
....if you go tankless.....you will need extra 'support' so don't go braless......



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: rz
Date: May 25, 2021 08:11PM
Had a gas tankless at the old house. We loved it. Definitely saved us money. New house doesn't have gas, but wife wants it for cooking/dryer, etc. They said it would cost $16K just to run the line to our house. I think that's insane, but wife is seriously considering it.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: jawg
Date: May 25, 2021 08:27PM
Our house built in 1995 was originally built with a tank gas water heater. A subsequent owner changed it over to a tankless that was in place when we bought the place in 2014. My wife never liked the tankless. It was in the basement just under the master bath, so hot water to the shower and jetted tub was quick. But the laundry room and kitchen are at the other end of the house (a long ranch style) and it took a LONG time for hot water to get there.
Our options were: 1)Add another tankless unit for the kitchen and laundry, 2) get a larger tankless unit suitable for a recirculation system, 3) convert back to tank system with a recirculation system.
We opted for number 3 and do not miss the tankless at all. We have essentially instant hot water in the master bath, kitchen, and laundry now. Mostly, my wife is now very happy with the new set up.
Just our personal experience. I do really like the idea of a tankless system, but it did not work out for us.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: mattkime
Date: May 25, 2021 10:00PM
Quote
rz
Had a gas tankless at the old house. We loved it. Definitely saved us money. New house doesn't have gas, but wife wants it for cooking/dryer, etc. They said it would cost $16K just to run the line to our house. I think that's insane, but wife is seriously considering it.

She'll get what she wants...but I can't help but wonder if gas appliances will be on the way out in the near future. I know gas is popular for cooking, but I suspect its mostly branding. I'll get a induction cooktop when we redo our kitchen. Gas does produce a fair amount of pollution.



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: sekker
Date: May 25, 2021 11:36PM
Tankless is next when our 17 year old water heater dies.

Used to be illegal to install here even a few years ago…
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: davester
Date: May 26, 2021 12:41AM
Much more efficient than either tank or tankless water heaters are electric heat pump water heaters. They're expensive, though so are tankless.

At our house we have a different option entirely...a condensing stainless steel tank water heater. It's 96% efficient, far better than either tank or tankless. It was expensive too, but affordable for us since we converted our heating to radiant hydronic so the water heater replaced both the old water heater and the furnace.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: ADent
Date: May 26, 2021 12:51AM
Most tankless need to be directly vented outside.

Our tank water heater is in the middle of the basement (next to the furnace), so we would have to relocate next to a wall and run the water and gas lines over. I guess this may be why someone's installation listed above was $4K.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: MrNoBody
Date: May 26, 2021 07:40AM
I'd like to add when considering assessments or reviews of a home
system (HVAC, HW heater, Cooking, etc.) keep in mind 2020's technology
is far ahead of just five years ago. Comparing a 10+ year old device to
what is available now just isn't legit.

For me, electric motor design is the first thing I think of in the technology
advancements of just the past five years.



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The Humpty Dance by The Harris-Brown Hookup
Lets Spend The Night Together by The Fang-Swalwell Gang
Díaz-Canel Is A Friend of Ours by The AOC Squad
My Old Kentucky Retirement Home by MitchMcC & The Soggy Boxer Boys
Burning Down The House by Merrick & The Goons
Back In the USSR by Bernie's Red Square Trio

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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: sekker
Date: May 26, 2021 10:22AM
Quote
MrNoBody
I'd like to add when considering assessments or reviews of a home
system (HVAC, HW heater, Cooking, etc.) keep in mind 2020's technology
is far ahead of just five years ago. Comparing a 10+ year old device to
what is available now just isn't legit.

For me, electric motor design is the first thing I think of in the technology
advancements of just the past five years.

Interesting, had no idea motors had come a long way recently. Any good source to get updated?
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: MrNoBody
Date: May 26, 2021 12:37PM
Quote
sekker
...
Interesting, had no idea motors had come a long way recently. Any good source to get updated?

Sure, lmddgtfy

7 STRANGEST New Motor Designs [youtu.be]



39°36'17"N 75°44'43"W

DuckDuckGo
The search engine that doesn't track you.

DemComm Records 2021 Greatest Hits
includes:
Taxman by Joe & Nancy's Rich Ice Cream Band
The Humpty Dance by The Harris-Brown Hookup
Lets Spend The Night Together by The Fang-Swalwell Gang
Díaz-Canel Is A Friend of Ours by The AOC Squad
My Old Kentucky Retirement Home by MitchMcC & The Soggy Boxer Boys
Burning Down The House by Merrick & The Goons
Back In the USSR by Bernie's Red Square Trio

patriot smiley
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 26, 2021 01:43PM
....so tanks.....for the memories....???



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: davester
Date: May 26, 2021 04:38PM
Quote
MrNoBody
I'd like to add when considering assessments or reviews of a home
system (HVAC, HW heater, Cooking, etc.) keep in mind 2020's technology
is far ahead of just five years ago. Comparing a 10+ year old device to
what is available now just isn't legit.

For the most part that doesn't apply to water heaters. Most of the water heaters sold today are still the same crappy inefficient design that's been on the books for decades. Granted, there are some advancements (heat pump water heaters are a significant advance) but availability is not high and most people aren't buying them because they don't look beyond the initial purchase price and pay no attention to longterm costs.



"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." (1987) -- Carl Sagan
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: MrNoBody
Date: May 26, 2021 05:42PM
For the most part that doesn't apply to water heaters.

Sorry davester, I must disagree with that opinion. Just recently I helped
a friend replace a 4yo 40gal gas with the same model (AO Smith).
New one is more efficient, controller is a vast improvement, and the
tank/insulation much better. And, the new one cost slightly less than the
2017 model though his was free under warranty!



39°36'17"N 75°44'43"W

DuckDuckGo
The search engine that doesn't track you.

DemComm Records 2021 Greatest Hits
includes:
Taxman by Joe & Nancy's Rich Ice Cream Band
The Humpty Dance by The Harris-Brown Hookup
Lets Spend The Night Together by The Fang-Swalwell Gang
Díaz-Canel Is A Friend of Ours by The AOC Squad
My Old Kentucky Retirement Home by MitchMcC & The Soggy Boxer Boys
Burning Down The House by Merrick & The Goons
Back In the USSR by Bernie's Red Square Trio

patriot smiley
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: May 26, 2021 09:22PM
Quote
mattkime
Quote
rz
Had a gas tankless at the old house. We loved it. Definitely saved us money. New house doesn't have gas, but wife wants it for cooking/dryer, etc. They said it would cost $16K just to run the line to our house. I think that's insane, but wife is seriously considering it.

She'll get what she wants...but I can't help but wonder if gas appliances will be on the way out in the near future. I know gas is popular for cooking, but I suspect its mostly branding. I'll get a induction cooktop when we redo our kitchen. Gas does produce a fair amount of pollution.

Cooking with electric sucks. It isn't branding. You cannot get the same results with electric as you can with gas.



C(-)ris
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: sekker
Date: May 26, 2021 10:34PM
Quote
MrNoBody
Quote
sekker
...
Interesting, had no idea motors had come a long way recently. Any good source to get updated?

Sure, lmddgtfy

7 STRANGEST New Motor Designs [youtu.be]

Thanks. Was hoping you had some specific recommendations rather than the Great Google. The link you posted went to startups and others where the science might not be well vetted.
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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: mattkime
Date: May 26, 2021 10:55PM
Quote
C(-)ris
Cooking with electric sucks. It isn't branding. You cannot get the same results with electric as you can with gas.

electric != induction

but I'm interested to hear what gas can do that others can't.



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: NewtonMP2100
Date: May 27, 2021 09:47AM
.....bonus, if you go tankless.......no tan lines....



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Re: Going tankless could save you money.
Posted by: C(-)ris
Date: May 29, 2021 09:30PM
Quote
mattkime
Quote
C(-)ris
Cooking with electric sucks. It isn't branding. You cannot get the same results with electric as you can with gas.

electric != induction

but I'm interested to hear what gas can do that others can't.

Cast iron cooking. Even temps. More control over heat. You can taste the difference. When was the last time you saw induction or electric in a restaurant kitchen? Other than food service places like a cafeteria.



C(-)ris
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