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On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Speedy
Date: June 27, 2021 02:15PM
[www.mlive.com]

WISCONSIN -- The world's largest collection of 1929 and 1930 Nash Motors automobiles exists not in a museum, but rather entombed in the frigid depths of Lake Michigan.

The cars, 268 of them, are lashed in rows inside and crumpled in a heap next to the wreck of the SS Senator, a Great Lakes steamship that rests for eternity in an uncharted sinkhole about 15 miles east of Port Washington, Wis.

The Senator, which sank during the final days of the Roaring Twenties as the country was plunging into the Great Depression, sits upright nearly 450 feet down; so deep that few, if any, divers will ever see her in person. Her collection of vintage autos once bound for Detroit join the pantheon of ships, airplanes, submarines, train cars and other vehicles of yesteryear that populate the bottom of Lake Michigan.

>>>

The team found the Senator's pilothouse and bow cabins in great shape, not blasted off by the force of air escaping the ship during its death throes. The cars stored on deck lay in a crumpled pile off the starboard stern. Inside, the ROV found autos lined in neat rows of three in one of the holds.



Saint Cloud, Minnesota, where the weather is wonderful even when it isn't.
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: sekker
Date: June 27, 2021 03:05PM
'A little polish and elbow-grease will get those ready to roll!'
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Thrift Store Scott
Date: June 27, 2021 05:10PM
Quote
sekker
'A little polish and elbow-grease will get those ready to roll!'

If the rust hasn't gotten them yet, I imagine the waterlogged if not rotted wood in the wood-framed bodies will have.

For those not familiar with them, the 1929 Nash (1930 model is almost identical)-

[oldcarbrochures.org]

They're very nice, comfortable, rather conservative cars much like Buicks of the same period, but not "exciting" even when they were new. Interesting find nonetheless, though.



WARNING- If I posted a link in the above message, assume it is at minimum "NSFW- Language". Occasionally you'll be wrong.

Lie to me if you must, but don't lie to me and insult my intelligence in the same sentence.

Resist the Thought Police: George Orwell's book 1984 was meant as a warning, not an instruction manual.

"Political correctness is just intellectual colonialism and psychological fascism for the creation of thought crime" - Steve Hughes
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: June 27, 2021 05:48PM
Wood and metal preserve like new at the bottom of the Great Lakes. Sailing ships from the 19th century look like new, so the cars in the hold are likely in great shape. If the cars could be raised, they could be restored with little work.

Even corpses stay recognizable.

This is the Northernor, it sank in 1868




“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Ombligo
Date: June 27, 2021 05:52PM
Just found these

The Senator loaded with cars


Sonar Mosiac of the Senator on the bottom




“No persons are more frequently wrong, than those who will not admit they are wrong.”
-- François de La Rochefoucauld

Growing older is mandatory. Growing up is optional.
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: p8712
Date: June 27, 2021 07:22PM
After we restore the cars we can drive them to the Landfield where all the Apple Lisa’s are interred.
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Diana
Date: June 27, 2021 08:32PM
As Ombligo says, too cold and too deep.

Rust requires oxygen to react with the iron, as rust is a combination of FeO and Fe2O3. The bacteria and organisms that consume wood require oxygen to survive.

The colder the water, the more oxygen it can carry as compared to warmer water. However, the deeper the water, the less oxygen it contains (the term is "anoxic") and thus the organisms can't survive. That deep water either gets what oxygen it contains by diffusion (a slow process over a long distance) or by currents bringing oxygenated water deeper. As Lake Michigan is a BIG body of water, and I haven't checked any charts or maps showing currents in the lake, I can't say anything regarding currents. The Great Lakes pretty much classify as inland seas, although fresh water instead of salt water; other land-locked seas exhibit the same behavior as far as the oxygenated layers and the anoxic zones.

If you want the details regarding how heat is involved in reactions, let me know. I started to write it out and realized it was probably going to be a bit much. yawning smiley

Diana

FWIW, when I was younger I wanted to study marine biology until the floor fell out of the profession; I then switched to chemistry and now work in an area that has little to do with traditional chemistry.
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: June 27, 2021 11:04PM
If you want the details regarding how heat is involved in reactions, let me know. I started to write it out and realized it was probably going to be a bit much.


Yes, please!





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Racer X
Date: June 27, 2021 11:38PM
In Seattle, what is now Magnuson Park on Lake Washington was Sand Point Naval Air Station. A huge Navy float plane training base, as well as advanced carrier training base. There are massive concrete lots that were painted with the outlines of various carrier class decks for touch and goes. And massive ramps so the PBYs and over flying boats could be taxied/driven up on shore.

There are a LOT of sunken aircraft hundreds of feet down in frigid waters without oxygen. Perfectly preserved. And they keep an eye out to guarantee no one tries to disturb them. They are in "cold storage" if they ever decide to salvage and restore any.



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Diana
Date: June 28, 2021 01:39AM
Quote
RAMd®d
If you want the details regarding how heat is involved in reactions, let me know. I started to write it out and realized it was probably going to be a bit much.


Yes, please!

Only for you, RAMd®d. smileys with beer

The following discussion touches on various topics of chemistry (and some would rightly say physics); if you find your eyes glazing over at the mention of CHEMISTRY or PHYSICS, please skip it and return to your normally scheduled program.

First, a few terms. You probably know some of this or even perhaps, all of it, but in the interest of being complete (if not pedantic) I thought I would include it. I'm only scratching the surface, as it's quite complicated and folks have made their doctoral dissertations on some of these aspects.

When I speak of a reaction, I will tell it from the point of view of the chemicals involved, not me as a spectator. From the point of view of the system, not the environment.

Endothermic reactions pull energy from the environment, and thus will feel cold to us. Exothermic reactions, on the other hand, produce energy and thus feel warm or hot, depending on the amount of energy released. Most everything we normally deal with is probably in a resting state, meaning that nothing particularly is happening to it. When something is in an excited state, something is going on. Sometimes reactions are fast, and sometimes slow; stability is everything, as I will discuss below.

Chemical reactions involve the reactants (the stuff coming together making something new), and the products (the new thing). All chemicals are made from atoms, making molecules, and often larger items with other names, but let's just stick with atoms and molecules. Atoms are pure substances, meaning that the substance consists of only one type of atom; for instance, pure gold is nothing but gold. The gold in a wedding ring, however, isn't pure gold, but rather a mixture (an alloy in this case). For if you were to try wearing pure gold, it wouldn't be very durable as gold by itself is a soft metal and easily deformed. It's the nature of the substance.

A molecule consists of more than one atom; it can be the same type of atom, or it can be a mixture of them. Another example: an atom of nitrogen has an abbreviation of N. However, due to the electronic structure of the nitrogen atom, it cannot exist by itself, but must be bonded with something else. The gas nitrogen has two nitrogen atoms bonded together, and I will denote it as N2. Nitrogen gas (N2(g)) is freely floating in the atmosphere, as well as O2(g) (oxygen gas), CO2(g), H2O(g), etc. Note the (g)--it means that the substance it is annotated to is a gas. Other notations are (s) for solid and (aq) for aqueous or dissolved in water. The only atoms known to exist in a monoatomic form are those in the noble gas family (helium, argon, krypton, xenon, radon ... )

It takes energy to break bonds, and making bonds releases energy. When you get more energy out of a reaction than you put into it, the reactants were stable at the energy level they were at but the products they make take less energy to form the bonds, and thus energy is a product of the reaction and the reaction is considered an exothermic one. For an endothermic reaction, energy (heat) is one of the reactants required to cause the reaction to occur. To be clear, heat is a form of energy, and it is either a reactant or a product, and in some cases, both.

For rust, the reactions are:

Iron + oxygen gas --> rust and Iron + oxygen gas --> rust
2Fe(s) + O2(g) --> 2FeO(s) 4Fe(s) + 3O2(g) --> 2Fe2O3(s)

Rust exists as both molecules due to the oxidation state of iron: in the first case, the iron exists in the +2 oxidation state and in the second one it is in the +3 state*. Which form it will take depends on the the environment it finds itself in. Rust doesn't normally occur in very dry conditions, but rather in moist or wet ones. Thus rust isn't simply iron and oxygen, but a compound that contains water, a hydrate. For more information, please see here: rust is a hydrate. However, since the amount of water involved in the reaction does not change--it shows up on both sides of the reaction in equal amounts--it isn't shown. Sometimes heat will be shown on one side or another of a reaction, but often times it isn't because it is always present. Remember, heat is just a form of energy. Sometimes it will be shown, particularly if one wants to make a point. You could put an up arrow in parenthesis on either side of the equation, or put a triangle underneath the arrow, both of which denote heat.

To get a reaction started, it takes a certain amount of energy, known as the activation energy. Sometimes that hill is rather small and the bottom is rather a long way down. In this case, it doesn't take much and the reactants will produce their product quite easily; the products, however, cannot easily go back the other direction as there is a considerable amount of energy that will have to be put into it to cause it to happen. The steeper the slope, the harder it is for the reverse reaction to occur. A normal battery is this kind: all it takes is to connect the two poles and energy flows out until it is exhausted. To try to recharge a normal (non rechargeable) battery involves hooking it up to a system to pump more energy back into it. It takes a LOT and the battery will probably puke or explode or cause a bit of a mess (not advised here) as it can also generate hydrogen gas. A rechargeable one, however, doesn't have such a steep hill and thus can be recharged, but every time you do it you will lose some capacity. Thermodynamics. Sometimes it sucks.

Sometimes the hill is rather small and the bottom is a short way and thus the reaction will go in either direction, depending on the energy present in the environment. These reactions are shown with double-headed arrows, with the length of the arrow being more in the direction it is most likely to go.

The more heat that is present in the environment, the less the activation energy barrier will be, and thus we say that reactions are sped up with heat. But this isn't the whole picture. Atoms move constantly due to the energy present either in themselves or their environment. Even solids. The more energy present, the more the atoms/molecules move around, and the more likely they are to come into contact with something else and thus be ABLE to react. 'Cause if they don't come together, they won't react. The more stable the reactants, the less likely they will react with one another or the more slowly it will occur despite the amount of energy applied.

Reactions are concentration dependent. All the necessary parts must be present. The reaction will only proceed until one or of the reactants is exhausted, and then will stop until the exhausted reactant is filled (partially or fully, makes no difference and then it will proceed until something else is exhausted. Rate constants are measured as a constant being equal to the forward rate of something happening to the reverse rate of it happening. If we look at rust, we see (for the first reaction shown):

k (rate constant) = forward rate / backwards rate
= k(forward) / k (backward)
= [Fe] [O2] / [FeO]

HOWEVER, the rate is not just the overall reaction given above, but all intermediate steps along the way. Some will cancel out, and some will still remain, so the equation you see immediately above is WRONG in that the mechanism is NOT shown and accounted for. This is a first-year rookie mistake some people make.

And the rate constant follows what is known as the Arrhenius equation:

k = A exp(Ea/RT)

where A is a constant known as the Arrhenius constant, Ea is the activation energy, R is the gas constant, and T is temperature (in Kelvin).

if you take the natural log (ln) of both sides, you get

ln(k) = ln(A) - Ea/RT

so it can be plotted rather simply in an x-y type plot for a given reaction to experimentally determine the value of Ea and A. The parameters are ln(k) versus 1/T, with the slope of the line giving you -Ea/R and the intercept giving you ln(A). Since R is a constant, you can then calculate for Ea. The upshot contains the following observations:

(a) The higher the activation energy, the more strongly it is influenced by temperature and thus will more strongly temperature will influence the rate constant.

(b) No temperature dependence, no activation energy.

(c) A negative temperature dependence implies that the reaction will slow down with increasing temperature, and it always indicates a complex reaction mechanism.

For a much more in-depth discussion on reactions and kinetics, please see reaction rates and kinetics. Please note that it is LONG and quite involved.

For the effect of heat on reaction rates: here It is in this source I found the following:

"The detailed temperature dependence of A is beyond the scope of this course, and will be covered in detail next year in the statistical mechanics course. A very approximate temperature-dependent model for A will be seen in Section 20, on simple collision theory. However, the true origin of the temperature dependence relates to the way in which temperature affects the distribution of occupied quantum states in the reacting molecules."

Now we are discussing stuff beyond my pay grade.

Diana

Caveat: It's late here and I should be asleep. Any mistakes or misstatements I have made are entirely my own.

* Now we are discussing electrochemistry, an entirely (huge) area intersecting chemistry and physics. The rest of the discussion was reactions and a bit of kinetics.
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: June 28, 2021 05:24AM
Wow!

Just WOW.

Thank you, Diana.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Diana
Date: June 28, 2021 08:29AM
Dig deep enough and you find you have indeed fallen down the rabbit hole. As others have found, much to their chagrin!hamster dance

And thanks all who read that.

Diana
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Filliam H. Muffman
Date: June 28, 2021 11:42AM
Thank you Diana. Another one of the valuable resources in the collection of MRF users. :-)

Quote
If none of these plots result in a straight line, then more
complicated integrated rate laws must be tried.


I took an intro reaction chemistry class nearly 40 years ago. I figured I was in trouble when the teacher pointed out I was the only non-bio/chem student in the class and hadn't signed up for what would usually be listed as mandatory lab section. With the provided links, I could probably set up some equations on my own if I had just finished that class along with partial differential equations class. I learn very quick, but forget just about as fast if I don't use it regularly.



In tha 360. MRF User Map
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Ca Bob
Date: June 28, 2021 12:06PM
There is an overlap with the biology of cancer in terms of enzymatic pathways and which is the rate limiting reaction. It was fun to type that and try to sound erudite.

Actually, the equation that links the energy change with the equilibrium constant is really cool and is fun to teach to biochem students:

[www.chemguide.co.uk]

I don't know the answer to this one -- is the process of rusting basically an irreversible reaction until you get to really high temperatures, and is that enough by itself?
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Acer
Date: June 28, 2021 12:57PM
Let me paraphrase:

Quote
Diana
[Water deep]
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Diana
Date: June 28, 2021 02:08PM
Quote
Acer
Let me paraphrase:

Quote
Diana
[Water deep]

Let me add:

"and cold!"

smiley-laughing001
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: N-OS X-tasy!
Date: June 28, 2021 02:22PM
Quote
Diana
Quote
Acer
Let me paraphrase:

Quote
Diana
[Water deep]

Let me add:

"and cold!"

smiley-laughing001

River deep mountain high!



It is what it is.
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Thrift Store Scott
Date: June 28, 2021 05:59PM
Quote
Ombligo
Wood and metal preserve like new at the bottom of the Great Lakes. Sailing ships from the 19th century look like new, so the cars in the hold are likely in great shape. If the cars could be raised, they could be restored with little work.

Even corpses stay recognizable.

This is the Northernor, it sank in 1868

Okay, I stand corrected on the condition of the cars, but I'm still wondering how much collector interest there would be in a bunch of restored Nash cars from 1929-30?



WARNING- If I posted a link in the above message, assume it is at minimum "NSFW- Language". Occasionally you'll be wrong.

Lie to me if you must, but don't lie to me and insult my intelligence in the same sentence.

Resist the Thought Police: George Orwell's book 1984 was meant as a warning, not an instruction manual.

"Political correctness is just intellectual colonialism and psychological fascism for the creation of thought crime" - Steve Hughes
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: Racer X
Date: June 29, 2021 12:17AM
With that many, you could flood the market! smiley-music039



********************************************
The police have no duty to respond. See Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005) or Warren v. District of Columbia[1] (444 A.2d. 1, D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1981)
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Re: On the subject of cars; 268 Nashs sitting at the bottom of Lake Michigan
Posted by: RAMd®d
Date: June 29, 2021 03:00AM
River deep mountain high!


Now I have to play that!

It's one of my goto songs when I hear one or a mention of one that becomes the Earworm of Death.

Or just plain earworm.





Your boos mean nothing to me, I've seen what you cheer for.

Insisting on your rights without acknowledging your responsibilities isn’t freedom, it’s adolescence.

We are a government of laws, not men.

Everybody matters or nobody matters.

When a good man is hurt,
all who would be called good
must suffer with him.

You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead.

There is no safety for honest men except
by believing all possible evil of evil men.

We don’t do focus groups. They just ensure that you don’t offend anyone, and produce bland inoffensive products. —Sir Jonathan Ive

An armed society is a polite society.
And hope is a lousy defense.

You make me pull, I'll put you down.

I *love* SIGs. It's Glocks I hate.
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